Pure Motivation

[Christie M]

Hey all,

Didn't know where to put this, so I settled on here! Thoughts on the motivation vs. compulsion debate???

I think that the whole debate is very similar to politics, with there being a far right (we'll call the conservatives the traditional compulsion based trainers) and the far left (those liberal, treat feeders). In my experience, those on either extreme are pretty hateful of any other technique and consider themselves elite. Then there are those in the middle who try to incorporate both into their program, and ofcourse are hated by both sides.

So what are your thoughts? Is it possible to realistically deal with competing motivations without correction? What sports are better suited for what methods? Could a dog be trained from start to finish for a Sch3 only motivationally without a correction? KNPV? Agility? Competitive OB? Just as an every day pet spending every experience with their owner?

[KRoberts626]

I guess I'll throw myself out there and say that I use both. I have heard that you "can" do everything with clicker and reward, but I think that that way will probably take longer, and then I wonder what the appropriate response would be to those testy dogs that challenge you or go through that teenager type stage that they blow you off to see what they can and can not get away with! Right out of high school I worked for a behaviorist who taught me how to train. I started out working with her Border Collies (she was a breeder of working BCs), and then moved on to client's dogs. She introduced me to operant conditioning and clicker training. It wasn't all sugar coated as some would think but she mixed in some classical conditioning, some old stuff from back in the day ("Koehler"). One dog in particular I remember working with was a white GSD. This dog was not motivated by food, toy, or praise. A certain amount of starvation was used to get him interested in treats a little more, but when it really came down to it, using the Koehler method is what got the dog through the program. I personally like to start my puppies out with a clicker in obedience, and I've done so ever since I worked with the BC breeder. Eventually I wean them off (by the time they are 1 year) and they do get corrected when I'm 100% sure they know exactly what is expected of them. If I'm even slightly unsure the dog is confused or doesn't understand, I won't correct them. I'll just go through the exercise again. But the clicker is just foundation. They enjoy learning obedience and think it's fun. I've never used it in bitework, as of course I think the bite should be reward, not the click. Correction for a young puppy, could be just saying "no" and withholding reward, it could be turning away and ignoring them (and in which case, I would come back about 15-20 seconds later and try again), or when they get older it can be a collar correction.

It just depends on what works for each individual person, each individual dog. It depends a lot on the person's personality I think too, in how they like to work with their dogs. I've seen dogs that can not really be worked by the "extreme treat feeders" (such as the white GSD mentioned above), but I've never seen a dog 100% worked with a clicker and no correction. I've seen dogs that could not handle collar correction. But for those dogs (I worked with a BC that would fall apart and you'd lose her) I'd "correct" by a simple no and trying again.

So I guess I'm in the middle that is hated by both sides, however I see it as more realistic, and I have dogs that love to learn and love to work and to me that says that I'm doing the right thing with that particular dog I tend to believe that dogs strictly trained without reward may not be as happy when working- they do it because if they don't they receive correction. But it depends on the dogs desire to work with you as well.

[bayca]

You can not get it done only with corrections or motivation. You need a mix of both. How much you need from each depends on you, your dog en the sport you train in.

Jan

[leih merigian]

So what are your thoughts? Is it possible to realistically deal with competing motivations without correction? What sports are better suited for what methods? Could a dog be trained from start to finish for a Sch3 only motivationally without a correction? KNPV? Agility? Competitive OB? Just as an every day pet spending every experience with their owner?

I'm one of those in the middle people, tho I am definitely way on the non-compulsion side. I think terms need to be defined in most discussions like this, and agree with the first poster that correction can be anything along the continuum from a simple, soft "that's not it" marker, to a physical correction.

I think when most people talk about corrections, they are referring to mostly physical ones.

I know a SchH3 dog who was trained completely without corrections. She died a few years ago, but she was one of the first, and I know others who train this way in protection sports. She had no house manners whatsoever. I so don't agree with that .

Agility...I'd like to see someone train a happy, confident agility competitor using any kind of harsh corrections in their training program. You can always tell the people who blame their dogs for their performance by how the dogs perform and their demeanors on the field (and off, for that matter). These people never seem to get the concept that any mistakes the dog makes reflect holes in their training approach or thoroughness, or their own handling errors. "Train don't complain" is a cliche, but one I believe in.

IMO, obedience, too, responds well to postive approaches. I want a dog that's happy to work with me, and shows it, rather than one that is complying out of fear.

So, if you define correction as some form of feedback, then I think most dogs benefit from such communication. But, I don't think it needs to be harsh or physical to get the point across to the dog. It's all about communication and relationship, and putting in the time and effort to develop each.

[turnnburn52984]

A local (professional) trainer has worked her GSD through CD, BH, SchH3, Brevet. This dog has never worn a prong or e-collar, and has never received a correction on the training field! (She will admit to correcting him in the house a few times, as he is a house dog, not a kennel dog) AND, he's only 4! Reiki Vom Aegis, and Shade Whitesel. http://www.shadesdogtraining.net/about_us.htm

So... IMO, it's entirely possibly to train a dog with motivation ONLY.... if you're a top notch trainer, that has unlimited patience, and may possibly be part K-9!
I'm not that trainer. I do not have nearly enough patience to train a dog w/o using compulsion. I wish I did though. Shade's results (and other trainers I've met/seen that only use markers) are AMAZING- the dogs have SO MUCH TRY in them!

[KRoberts626]

A local (professional) trainer has worked her GSD through CD, BH, SchH3, Brevet. This dog has never worn a prong or e-collar, and has never received a correction on the training field! (She will admit to correcting him in the house a few times, as he is a house dog, not a kennel dog) AND, he's only 4! Reiki Vom Aegis, and Shade Whitesel. http://www.shadesdogtraining.net/about_us.htm

So... IMO, it's entirely possibly to train a dog with motivation ONLY.... if you're a top notch trainer, that has unlimited patience, and may possibly be part K-9!
I'm not that trainer. I do not have nearly enough patience to train a dog w/o using compulsion. I wish I did though. Shade's results (and other trainers I've met/seen that only use markers) are AMAZING- the dogs have SO MUCH TRY in them!

It's certainly possible, if you are a really patient person. Also I think it depends on the dog. What does this type of trainer do with a dog that (during bitework for example) won't out? Or a really dominant dog that you give a command to lie down and he growls because he "doesn't want to"

I commend someone who can, but definitely... out of my league LOL

[turnnburn52984]

Of course it depends on the dog! Reiki just happens to be that PERFECT dog. I know that his out is not 100% proofed ALL the time. There is a video of him on youtube (not sure if it's linked on her website or not) that he does take a rebite, after an out. Still got a 92 in protection though. Shade is incredibly patient. I've had the privilege to see her work her own dogs, clients dogs, and even Koenig!

But- keep in mind, that motivational training is generally thought of (by the left wingers!) as a very safe, successful way to work with dominant/aggressive dogs. W/O confrontation, they are more likely to comply for the reward of food/tug/ball.

I'm with you Kristen. All the more power to Shade, and her lucky lucky pups. I'm not that good. Probably never will be. Sorry Koenig. You're stuck with me, and my miss-timed marks and corrections!

[vneerland]

Is it possible to train a KNPV dog with motivation only?
No. Jan/Bayca would know who I am talking about, but there was a short experiment by a trainer who wanted to prove that it could be done, and it failed (with multiple handlers and multiple dogs)

But- keep in mind, that motivational training is generally thought of (by the left wingers!) as a very safe, successful way to work with dominant/aggressive dogs. W/O confrontation, they are more likely to comply for the reward of food/tug/ball.

I call that Bullsh*t. What motivation can I offer my very fight driven dog so that he is willing to give up the great @sskicking he is involvend in? A ball? Ya think?
The method of training that can be applied depends on the individual dog, as well as on the discipline.
I think that basic principles can (and probably should) be taught with motivaton, patience and understanding. But there is no order in the natural world that ignores negative behavior and is only based on rewarding positive behavior. I do not see the need to only sweet talk my dogs into compliance. I withold reward and correct when needed. Praise and motivate when I can.
JMO

[KRoberts626]

Excellent post, Judith

[Marjolein]

I wish you cou;d all read Dutch, we have HOURS of reading material on this subject on the Dutch forum

But to keep it short, I stick with what Judith says All is fun, unless they don't do what they are told, pretty fair I think?

[leih merigian]

The method of training that can be applied depends on the individual dog, as well as on the discipline.
I think that basic principles can (and probably should) be taught with motivaton, patience and understanding. But there is no order in the natural world that ignores negative behavior and is only based on rewarding positive behavior. I do not see the need to only sweet talk my dogs into compliance. I withold reward and correct when needed. Praise and motivate when I can.
JMO

LOVE it! So well said...