Geyser in Heat

[Kristie E]

Here is the link to another forum where we were discussing it and here are some links to research regarding spaying and neutering...

http://www.modernecollartraining.com/vi ... lit=neuter
http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclu ... neutr.html
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

There were more but I can't get them to work.. I ll look for the them later

[leih merigian]

Wouldn't that be interesting...a Dutchie Labradoodle mix!

I can't even imagine it

[leih merigian]

BTW - Letty has not come into season yet. Hopefully I did not just jinx it.

I was wondering if she had. I guess (ignoramus that I am with these things) I'd have expected them to be pretty close to each other timing-wise.

BTW, I opted not to use any panties this time. I was forever cleaning up little dropletts all over the house, but I am certain she would not have left them on, the little scamp .

[Marjolein]

Wouldn't that be interesting...a Dutchie Labradoodle mix!

I can't even imagine it

hah! I met a golden retriever/DS mix once! Looked like a brindled golden retriever, really sweet dog

[vneerland]

Here is the link to another forum where we were discussing it and here are some links to research regarding spaying and neutering...

http://www.modernecollartraining.com/vi ... lit=neuter
http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclu ... neutr.html
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

There were more but I can't get them to work.. I ll look for the them later

Forum is members only.
Links, okay. Interesting but the 'caninesports' is very incomplete reading. While some of the facts might be true, there are glaring omissions (like the risks for unspayed bitches) and no true statistics to support the claims, leading to some loss of credibility. Like I said, I am not an opponent of spay/neuter for 'no' reason, and certainly never at a very young age. But I am not convinced yet that you shorten your dogs lifespan by neutering/spaying. As it stands, I assume that you swap some ailments (especially when you spay/neuter after the dog reaches maturity) but that spayed or neutered mature animals actually have the health edge.

Curious what our vets would have to say about this.

[Kristie E]

the forum is members only??? really? huh? I guess I ll say something about it. I suspect you are correct when you say you swap some issues for others. Considering Izar's breed and some of the genetic issues it makes me think that he would have a longer life than what the average is for his breed which isn't very long at all.

[leih merigian]

...But I am not convinced yet that you shorten your dogs lifespan by neutering/spaying. As it stands, I assume that you swap some ailments (especially when you spay/neuter after the dog reaches maturity) but that spayed or neutered mature animals actually have the health edge.

I've sure never read anything that suggests spaying/neutering shortens the lifespan. The rest of this comment is what I've come to understand after the research I've done, too.

And, today, I learned another practial thing. Even on the 20th day, Geyser attracted a stray neutered male out on a hiking trail. So, no more parks until she's totally finshed (I'm still not certain how to tell when she is?).

[Christie M]

I don't even know how to download stuff to a phone...so this may be way too much of a pain in that situation (just so Christie knows that's not aimed at her). Actually, it's not aimed at anyone...just responding to the replies<g>.

LOL - I can't even figure out how to send a PM from my phone. I can post, but its an effort and the keys are SO tiny. Also, although I know I shouldn't, I often read the forum in the car.....but tend not to type and drive.

This weekend, when I believe she'll be over it, she'll get to romp with her boyfriend (next door male labradoodle who is huge). I think he's neutered, but I've heard of neutered dogs and females in heat being able to get it on (I think that was Christie's story)...

Yeah - that was my hussy of a dog. I neutered Dante at 2 years old when I got him. He never was bred. I moved back to MI in late 2002, so Willow must have been atleast 3 at the time and Dante atleast 7 (5 years after his brain surgery ). I saw that they were wrestling more when she was in heat and she would stand for him, but just felt sorry for the poor guy. One day I'm talking on the phone and looking out the window, only to turn around and see them tied in the doorway- both looking at me innocently like "What? We were just standing here the whole time." I probably should have taken it as a hint to prevent further occurrences, but I was like "Who's it hurting?"

Wouldn't that be interesting...a Dutchie Labradoodle mix!

I do know a breeder that was approached by someone wanting to buy a malinois puppy. They felt that it was very important for them to produce maladoodles. They would be all the rage!!!

Hopefully. Vada always left hers on. They're not on that much though. And always supervised. I'm sure I'll be reminded the hard to to take them off before sending her outside to potty.

Ummmmm - yeah. Icky!!

Let me know how you like the panties. I am a die hard boxer or boxer brief girl. I haven't found anything that seemed as comfortable for them and as effective.

Links, okay. Interesting but the 'caninesports' is very incomplete reading. While some of the facts might be true, there are glaring omissions (like the risks for unspayed bitches) and no true statistics to support the claims, leading to some loss of credibility. Like I said, I am not an opponent of spay/neuter for 'no' reason, and certainly never at a very young age. But I am not convinced yet that you shorten your dogs lifespan by neutering/spaying. As it stands, I assume that you swap some ailments (especially when you spay/neuter after the dog reaches maturity) but that spayed or neutered mature animals actually have the health edge.

Curious what our vets would have to say about this.

I'm not a vet, but I did research the crap out of it when I worked at the vet clinic. It drove them all crazy when I had opinions that were different than the company motto.

I have a ton of respect for Dr. Christine Zink who wrote the Canine Athlete paper. She goes into more scientific detail in other publications. The posted link was for a more layman seminar. But I think that delayed growth plate closure is her number one concern for working dogs.

I agree that you are trading one set of ailments for others. Early spay/neuter does delay growth plate closure, eliminates the formation of secondary sex characteristics and behaviors (sometimes that could be good), increases incidence of incontinence in females, alters a dog's ability to self regulate food intake and I think one study said that fixed animals have a higher percentage of cruciate rupture (maybe due to fatter dogs?). All of these findings were based on a population that was spayed/neutered at 7 weeks. In fact they did 7 weeks, 7 months and not at all. The biggest difference laid with those altered at 7 weeks - with little difference between 7 months and not at all.

There are only 2 things that I can think of that would alter a dog's life span. I think there was one study demonstrating that neutered males had a higher incidence of osteosarcoma. But I can't remember if there was an age cut off, or just altered vs not. If they were just looking at the number of reported dogs with the disease then that could be a skewed statistic. Typically, people who alter are more dedicated pet owners (as a population compared to people who don't) and notice things.

The other thing that I think could lead to an overall shorter life expectancy (as a population of dogs) is the inability of the dog to be able to go through a puberty stage. I just think it would be a very interesting study to look at dogs that were altered at a very young age and see what their surrender rates are and incidence of severe behavior problems that lead to euthanasia (anxiety...etc). Just a thought.

On the flip side, altered pets have a lower incidence of mammary cancer, prostate issues and roaming (which can severely lower life expectancy. So I think it really comes down to how responsible do you WANT to be and when do you feel is the right cut off for your dog?

[k9katet]

Leih - Letty came into season at the beginning of last week. Wednesday I drove out to Omaha for a 4 day agility seminar. Letty was working on Thursday. The presenter had no problem with me still working her. The host had strong opinions on why I should not have worked her but I have been coming out there twice a year for a few years now so she let me.

We had a few wresting matches to get her panties on. We worked the dogs in groups of 6 and sometimes individually. One time we were working individually and I released her from her kennel and her panties caught on the crate and ripped off. So they had to go to the next dog and come back to us when we got them back on. Once I got them sized and put on properly then we were good. She basically ignored them.

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A friend in Letty's foundation agility class was making panties to sell and gave me 3 pair to try out. The night before the seminar I put the pink pair on her in the cabin. We also have a black pair.

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She's been mostly normal. She hasn't lost her brain at all.

[leih merigian]

Good to know! They aren't that far apart from each other, then.

The panties are great, and how nice that you were still able to work her at that event.

Geyser's behavior didn't change much either...(borrowing from Marjolein...), she did occasionally have bananas in her ears, but not when she was working.

But, the post-heat changes are very apparent. She's definitely matured a great deal, which manifests in her being able to behave while being free in the house (with me, of course).

The other big change I've noticed is in her appetite. Her food drive remains strong, but her appetite has decreased significantly. Things she used to love, she now turns her nose up at. It's kind of frustrating . She still loves her RMBs, but the ground stuff? Not so much.

Let me know what you find about Letty's changes afterward...

[Christie M]

Just to chime in - Geisha just started showing signs of heat on Monday. She will be one on the 4th of May.

I am anxious to see how it effects her working ability. She has been pretty sporadic about wanting to work, so I am hoping to see a huge increase in her intensity after heat. Crossing my fingers

[k9katet]

I'm seeing more intensity in Letty the last week or so - I just became aware of it a few days ago. I'm not sure if it's related to her heat or from working at the seminar all day last Thursday or things are just coming together or she just hit a certain age? I like it though. She's demanding me to work with her. Finally! We haven't done any bitework in a few weeks but we will on Sunday at a new field for her so it'll be interesting to see if there are any changes there too. I keep getting bright flashing signs that say I need to move along in her training.