Clickers

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zxs107020
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Clickers

Post by zxs107020 »

Ive read in a few places that once a dog has firmly associated the sound of the clicker with reward, you should start delaying the length of time between the sound and reward. In theory, this is supposed to teach the animal patience in that they are supposed to learn the sound means they are doing something good and that it will be rewarded, even if the reward is not immediate. I wanted to find out if anyone has information or experience on the subject because a trainer told me the reward should ALWAYS come within 2 seconds of the sound and I happen to disagree. Thoughts?
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Re: Clickers

Post by Dutchringgirl »

2 or 3 seconds is the time for the dog to match ( for lack of a better word) the reward with the action. so....I say..."Sadie, sit"...she sits. click...treat. she understands thr reward is for sitting....if i wait lomger,she wont associate ( thats the word i was looking for) the treat wit the sit and just think she is getting a treat
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Re: Clickers

Post by Dutchringgirl »

you can wean off a treat for a sit after a while when she it good at it but yes, 2-3 seconds clicker or marker word
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Re: Clickers

Post by zxs107020 »

Well, I agree with you that when you are first teaching an action- the reward should be immediate. However, my question pertains to once the dog is reliably performing an action consistently and accurately. This is at the point where you are trying to increase the duration of the action and also remove treats from the equation. In theory, delaying the response time isnt really any different than using variable enforcement (which is similar to weaning off the treat as you mention). I read an interesting article on the subject which can be found here, https://clickertraining.com/node/65. However, Im still not sure Im convinced. 1) The study was on sheep, not dogs. 2) Perhaps some but not ALL animals would display displacement behaviors...My thinking is that if the dog is smart enough to "get it" (which should be readily apparent based on their demeanor especially if theyre not offering displacement behaviors) - then the method is effective. An example, I click when my dog follows me into my room- but I dont have treats on me. She goes to her spot and patiently waits until I am able to grab the treats and feed her- then she goes about her business.

The point is that for service or competition, the dog must be conditioned to understand that action must be immediate and rewards will come later. What is the best way to teach this without risking extinction or non-compliance?
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Re: Clickers

Post by zxs107020 »

lol, here is another interesting article on the subject: https://clickandtreat.com/wordpress/?p=731
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Re: Clickers

Post by Dutchringgirl »

once the dog knows the command then the rewards stop.

for prolonged acts, like "look" or the following you then going to a spot, the reward and 3 seconds is whenever you want to end the schooling. so... she followsyou in, lays down, you want to show her that is the desired act, click, treat. then she can be free to movbe or stay. for a long down/stay, you draw it out , so a minute in the down, click, treat. a few days lter, 90 seconds, click, treat. 2 minutes down,stay....click,treat. next week, down, stay, take a shower..... click, treat
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Re: Clickers

Post by Dutchringgirl »

I'm still typing with a cast so I hope I explained it ok
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Re: Clickers

Post by Dutchringgirl »

rewards cant come later or there will be no association
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Re: Clickers

Post by Dutchringgirl »

the article is saying that it is not as cut and dry as "mark, reward" but that is how behavior is learned. the cat waits, he probably learned through trial and error that if he pounced early, no food. Sadie still has not learned that you cannot run through the gate with a stick wider than 4'

I also think there is a difference between a behavior we teach them and a behavior they learn them selves
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Re: Clickers

Post by zxs107020 »

I mean... I agree with you; LEARNING proceeds faster when the click and reward immediately proceed one another, and this is most effective when they come as close to the desired action as possible. I also agree that the clicker must be "charged" with an initial period of immediate click-reward. You're also right that there are differences between taught behavior and behavior that the animal learns themselves (or that is natural)- Im still struggling to teach my dog to "speak" and the traditional method (wait for behavior to take place, click and treat while behavior is taking place, add verbal cue) only encouraged her to bark in general; the command remains meaningless :( I also believe that punishment is ONLY effective if it occurs while the behavior is taking place.

However, once a clicker has been charged and a behavior has been learned- I still think there are advantages to delaying the treat. As the article states (and like I mentioned in my original post, this is corroborated by sources I cant quote), "According to Pavlov the number is almost meaningless. He routinely pushed it out to 30 minutes. Virtually none of his experiments obeyed the 1-15 second rule."

Dont get me wrong, I think the dog has to learn that a reward can be delayed. An example is "charging" the delay just as you would normally "charge" the clicker by making sure that no intervening behavior or cues take place between click-and-treat to confuse the dog. But in the end, "It’s about the animal connecting an event to a consequence based on a number of criteria and timing is only a lesser criterion...Pavlov demonstrated 24 hour latencies in dogs and you can too." I remain unconvinced that an occasional, intermittent delay between click-and-treat does not have its advantages or uses.

Sorry to hear about your cast. I hope you are alright.
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Re: Clickers

Post by Dutchringgirl »

when I taught thalie to bark on command, I just said the bark command and riled her up until she barked, then immediate reward, that is a bit more abstract so it took a few for her to realize what the command meant. then I dit it a bunch to solidify the training.

I agree that the punnisment works only if said unwanted act is happening

the pavlov idea is for the short term cut and dry acts,... sit, roll over etc, there are times the dog must do something that is more abstract but that will also be taught in staged.

the defense of handler is a very long subject for the dog, it is broken up into shorter segments, ( I don't use clicker but marking is the same idea) I use a word then tug play but same result.

so as the dog is learning,the mark and reward is not so instant

but no matter what, the mark ends the act.

so... long stay.......... the dog already knows down..... you walk away...... nothing happens for the 3 minutes the dog is waiting for the mark.

I'm not sure about the delay, like you said, nothing can happen in-between. how will the dog associate THE MARK FOR THE ACT

you put the dog in a down/stay...walk away, turn to dog...wait 3 minutes...( your objective is to teach dog to stay for 3 minutes) if something occurs in that time...dog stands, you tell him to down again......then after 3 min you mark..... he will think the stand is part of the training.

am i on the right track with that idea?

thanks, cast comes off tomorrow. i am a good typist ansd one handed typing drives me up thr wall
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Re: Clickers

Post by zxs107020 »

Dutchringgirl wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:54 pm I'm not sure about the delay, like you said, nothing can happen in-between. how will the dog associate THE MARK FOR THE ACT

you put the dog in a down/stay...walk away, turn to dog...wait 3 minutes...( your objective is to teach dog to stay for 3 minutes) if something occurs in that time...dog stands, you tell him to down again......then after 3 min you mark..... he will think the stand is part of the training.

am i on the right track with that idea?

thanks, cast comes off tomorrow. i am a good typist ansd one handed typing drives me up thr wall
The dog associates the mark for the act because the clicker always marks the act itself- regardless of whether or not a reward comes immediately. For example, I click the second my dogs butt hits the ground on a "sit." She will get rewarded periodically while sitting (with our without a click)- but she can only break when she hears the word "free." Whether or not "free" gets a click is arbitrary. It has nothing to do with sit- but every command must be obeyed until the word "free" is heard. In books I've read, the analogy they give is that the clicker is like the shutter of a camera- it takes a picture for the dog and creates a memory of exactly what was happening when the sound was heard. This is how the learning takes place- not necessarily by the reward itself (which is also arbitrary- as you mentioned we can use food, toys, or even just physical/verbal praise).

As far as the second part of what you have said regarding the dog breaking the process of an act that is extended in duration: there are two things. The first is that I use a "non-reward marker" which is a verbal cue that the dog has done something incorrect. Then, according to Sheila Booth in her book "Shutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive" you take the dog back to exactly the same place and repeat the command- rinse and repeat until successful. She says that its helpful to take the animal back to the same place because this reinforces the "non-reward marker" that something was done incorrectly. Maybe the dog thinks, "something I did here was wrong, let me try something different." Its important to note that the use of the "non-reward marker" should be used carefully and sparingly because it can cause the dog to get frustrated (Denise Frenzie, "Motivation")- especially when they're trying really hard to learn a novel act.

In any case, the goal is still the same- to unpair or delay the act of obedience and reward. I still fail to see how occasional, intermittent delay of the reward after click doesn't help achieve this goal. Maybe Im just being thick or stubborn, but the literature doesn't necessarily disagree with me- which is why Im inclined to follow my gut.
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Re: Clickers

Post by Steve Gossmeyer »

Why use a clicker when you can mark the behavior with your voice
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Re: Clickers

Post by Dutchringgirl »

zxs107020 wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:52 pm The dog associates the mark for the act because the clicker always marks the act itself- regardless of whether or not a reward comes immediately.
yes
zxs107020 wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:52 pm
For example, I click the second my dogs butt hits the ground on a "sit." She will get rewarded periodically while sitting (with our without a click)- but she can only break when she hears the word "free." Whether or not "free" gets a click is arbitrary. It has nothing to do with sit- but every command must be obeyed until the word "free" is heard.

yes
zxs107020 wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:52 pm
In books I've read, the analogy they give is that the clicker is like the shutter of a camera- it takes a picture for the dog and creates a memory of exactly what was happening when the sound was heard. This is how the learning takes place- not necessarily by the reward itself (which is also arbitrary- as you mentioned we can use food, toys, or even just physical/verbal praise).
yes
zxs107020 wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:52 pm

As far as the second part of what you have said regarding the dog breaking the process of an act that is extended in duration: there are two things. The first is that I use a "non-reward marker" which is a verbal cue that the dog has done something incorrect. Then, according to Sheila Booth in her book "Shutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive" you take the dog back to exactly the same place and repeat the command- rinse and repeat until successful.
yes
zxs107020 wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:52 pm

She says that its helpful to take the animal back to the same place because this reinforces the "non-reward marker" that something was done incorrectly. Maybe the dog thinks, "something I did here was wrong, let me try something different." Its important to note that the use of the "non-reward marker" should be used carefully and sparingly because it can cause the dog to get frustrated (Denise Frenzie, "Motivation")- especially when they're trying really hard to learn a novel act.

In any case, the goal is still the same- to unpair or delay the act of obedience and reward.
yes
zxs107020 wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:52 pm

I still fail to see how occasional, intermittent delay of the reward after click doesn't help achieve this goal.
the delay of the reward after the clickto unpair?

[/quote]
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Re: Clickers

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Steve Gossmeyer wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:35 pm Why use a clicker when you can mark the behavior with your voice
i agree, the clicker achieves the same thing and its one more thing for me to have around
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Re: Clickers

Post by zxs107020 »

Dutchringgirl wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:55 pm the delay of the reward after the clickto unpair?
Yes, so essentially- if you agree with the other points I made in the post...then the goal of delaying the reward after marking with the clicker is so that you can use the clicker to shape behavior and train without immediately giving a reward. An example of this would be using the clicker to shape the heel on a walk, and then rewarding with food when you got home. This was the dog is engaged and learning while walking, the clicker remains charged, and you dont have to carry treats on you. (Thats just an example, I use my handy-dandy fanny pack lol)

Anyway, as far as why use the clicker? Studies have shown that learning occurs faster with a clicker than with verbal cues. Heres a great research paper on the subject: https://www.clickertraining.com/files/W ... FICACY.pdf

According to the article, using a clicker takes less time and fewer rewards to teach new behavior than does using verbal cues. I keep one on my keychain so I never have to worry about finding it, etc.
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Re: Clickers

Post by Dutchringgirl »

ok, got it. yes, when we train heal, we walk and train, and do our training stuff, but there is never a delay. we always mark and tug play immediately. no delay with the marker word and tug
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Re: Clickers

Post by zxs107020 »

SHE FINALLY LEARNED SPEAK :D lol....im so proud, only took 3 months hahah :s
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Re: Clickers

Post by Dutchringgirl »

zxs107020 wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:35 pm SHE FINALLY LEARNED SPEAK :D lol....im so proud, only took 3 months hahah :s
yeah!!!!!
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