6.5 months

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zxs107020
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Tell us about yourself: Dallas, TX. I have owned two dutch shepherds. Both were/are service dogs. I hope to trial in competitive obedience/tracking with my current puppy.

6.5 months

Post by zxs107020 »

EDIT: THE BEHAVIORS NOTED IN THIS POST RELATE TO OBSERVATIONS MADE THIS MORNING AND YESTERDAY ONLY. THEY ARE NOT REPEATED OR CONSISTENT BEHAVIORS, BUT REPRESENT A SUDDEN CHANGE IN BEHAVIOR.

Ok, so I have read about this time period in books but I was totally unprepared for how drastic the change is. This post is for those who have raised DS puppies. I could really use some advice/wisdom. (Also a warning to those who have puppies a few months younger than mine)

Cleo has been such an angel. She is smart, obedient, and learns fast. However, as of late she has been turning into a complete demon. She doesnt want to listen. She has started peeing everywhere. She refuses to poop in her designated potty area. ETC.

In books and literature, it is said that between the ages of 6-8 months it will seem like the dog has forgotten everything it may have learned previously. During this time, the dog becomes more confident and independent- they want to explore the world and make their own decisions. This is all great, I want to encourage my dogs growth and make sure that she becomes a strong, self-assured bitch.

Its really hard though trying to be patient. She doesnt listen. Shes not interested in playing. She is becoming a complete terror. I have blown my fuse more than once, and I HATE it because I know that my job is to be understanding and level-headed.

How do you stay patient? I dont want to damage my relationship with the dog, which has been developing so nicely. Im starting to reach my wits-end though. Some of this behavior is not tolerable. In the literature it basically says you have to start from scratch all over again :S

Well, theres my rant- any advice or suggestions would be awesome.
Last edited by zxs107020 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Steve Gossmeyer
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Re: 6.5 months

Post by Steve Gossmeyer »

I've never had that issue... honestly man you need a good trainer that knows the breed
Steve Gossmeyer
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Re: 6.5 months

Post by Steve Gossmeyer »

If a dog doesn't listen it's because they have no reason too and the training needs to change
zxs107020
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Re: 6.5 months

Post by zxs107020 »

Steve Gossmeyer wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:54 pm I've never had that issue... honestly man you need a good trainer that knows the breed
Thanks, but this whole "you need a trainer" thing after every post is getting really old. Unless there was a security issue, I highly doubt theres any problem that I cant solve on my own. I have said in numerous places that I hold my dog to an extremely high standard as a service animal and hopefully a competition dog-
so take my complaints with a grain of salt as well. Even at her worst shes still probably more well trained than the majority of "pets" out there, ESPECIALLY for her age.

MOREOVER- I highly doubt that there are any trainers in my area that have more experience with the DS than I do. There is a guy at the club who has a 3-yr old Malinois, but otherwise the DS isnt exactly a common breed that people are likely to have even seen before let alone worked with.

Also, I would have to respectfully disagree with you. I may lack experience in dealing with a puppy, but as far as the literature is concerned: this is an age thing, not a breed or training issue. That is information coming from several different sources on raising puppies and the science behind canine growth. Intuitively it makes sense as well, she is about to hit "puberty" and her hormones are changing- it is unrealistic to claim that these physical changes dont have effects on the animals personality.

Having said all that, maybe youre right and I can get a little more creative and change up our training routines to make the time more engaging for the dog- maybe its time to switch up locations as well.

The biggest concern I have is the peeing. I dont know why she is doing this but it has happened 3 times today. I will be taking her out more frequently to prevent it from happening again but my fear is that maybe its a UTI (in humans increased urinary frequency is a sign of UTI) so I will have to keep a very close watch on her the next day or two and maybe a visit to the veterinary office.

Anyway, some CONSTRUCTIVE feedback would be greatly appreciated. :D
Aachen Cleopatra 2/15/17
Steve Gossmeyer
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Re: 6.5 months

Post by Steve Gossmeyer »

I wasn't meaning to be an ass I just see you having a lot of frustration and being a professional dog trainer that could really help if I was in that area a lot of your issues could be solved much faster and you could get help put on a program with the dog... I know your asking for help and that's just my honest opinion
zxs107020
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Re: 6.5 months

Post by zxs107020 »

Steve Gossmeyer wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:02 pm I wasn't meaning to be an ass I just see you having a lot of frustration and being a professional dog trainer that could really help if I was in that area a lot of your issues could be solved much faster and you could get help put on a program with the dog... I know your asking for help and that's just my honest opinion
I understand. I meant no disrespect either. As I said, take what I say with a grain of salt- these issues arent really that serious and I have so far been able to work out every single one almost immediately with creative problem solving and patience. A perfect example is the barking post from the behavior section. All I had to do was tell her no, once. lol. Problem solved.

There is simply no way I am going to pay someone 40+$/30 minutes to get that kind of advice. The only reason I post on the forum is to gain insights that I may not have thought of and learn from the wisdom/experience of others. By no means should that imply that my dog is a problem or that she has behavioral issues. More often than not, I solve the issue before anyone even replies.

I am a "scientist" (data science) and one thing we look for is patterns. When patterns change, you investigate why/how and what to do. Like I said, my biggest concern is the peeing and I hope it is not a result of some kind of underlying health issue.

One thing I will say though is that as far as the age issue is concerned, you are absolutely wrong. lol. Again, I say that with all due respect. Maybe you just havent noticed it in your dogs because as a trainer you spend more time with them (especially in training) than others, but you simply cannot argue that a dogs personality/behavior is not effected by growth and hormonal changes during puberty. Every single puppy book I have ever read warns that between 6-8 months can be difficult and frustrating because of these changes.
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Re: 6.5 months

Post by Dutchringgirl »

Ok, not to be an ass either, but a good trainer could help you work through the problems. I never had these with Sadie and she is a crack head super high drive DS. She went through the stages but I was able to handle them. I also had my many years of Ring training to use.

Many time spending some $ on a trainer will work out better in the long run. It will save a lot of aggravation now and only help you and your dog and your bond. Plus you do not want to get into bad habits as they could turn nasty and even harder to undo.

She does have behavior issues, the reason they are there does not matter but that they are there and they need to be taken care of or she will learn to keep them going. Peeing and not listening are behavior issues.
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zxs107020
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Re: 6.5 months

Post by zxs107020 »

Dutchringgirl wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:51 pm Ok, not to be an ass either, but a good trainer could help you work through the problems. I never had these with Sadie and she is a crack head super high drive DS. She went through the stages but I was able to handle them. I also had my many years of Ring training to use.

Many time spending some $ on a trainer will work out better in the long run. It will save a lot of aggravation now and only help you and your dog and your bond. Plus you do not want to get into bad habits as they could turn nasty and even harder to undo.

She does have behavior issues, the reason they are there does not matter but that they are there and they need to be taken care of or she will learn to keep them going. Peeing and not listening are behavior issues.
Once again, this is becoming pedantic...."not listening" during play time one specific morning is not a behavioral issue. I have a job, I go to school. Still, I am hypervigilant when it comes to training my dog- I formulate training plans and solve potential issues before they arise instead of after.

Specifically my issue is that she has started following me when I walk away on the long down.

Read this very carefully- as a 6 month old service dog in training she is extremely well-behaved and i am 100% satisfied with her progress. She is well-regarded everywhere we go. My thoughts and concerns arise from long-term planning about how to get her ready for competitions that are at least a YEAR away.

In any case its my probably my fault for writing an overly dramatic post- since it appears that "dog trainers" are unable to read between the lines or understand the nature of the post, or even show empathy for that matter.

Steve hinted upon an important point- my best guess is shes probably just bored; I need to switch up the training routine and location. Maybe use some different toys as well.

Also, using her food as reward is definitely not always the best motivator- she snaps to attention when I pull out the "big guns" like bully max, bones, etc...

The peeing is either my fault for not taking her out at the appropriate time or my bigger concern is that there might be an underlying health issue such as infection that could be the cause....but having an accident at 6 months old on 1 morning is NOT a behavioral issue that requires a dog trainer. If it were situational, or related to a specific behavior, that might be a different issue- but its not. If it happens again, the first thing I will do is take her to the vet. The reason I got frustrated is that she hasnt had an accident in like 3 weeks.

If you have nothing constructive or helpful to add to a conversation, perhaps the best idea is just not to say anything at all? Im on the verge of leaving this site. If you have to start a comment with "not to be an ass either" you should seriously reconsider whether or not your comment is worth mentioning to begin with.
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Re: 6.5 months

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Re: 6.5 months

Post by centrop67 »

Sorry, but I have to weigh in here...

By now I think you'e made it quite clear that you do not respect the sound advice to hire a trainer to help you through some of your troubles. Yes, it's sound advice, and no one who has given it has done so with any ill intent.

You've decided to make it a contentious issue while not heeding your own advice: "if you have nothing constructive or helpful to add to a conversation, perhaps the best idea is just not to say anything at all"

You did write a frantic and dramatic post, and I believe the issues you've described are not normal and quite troublesome.

Regardless of whether you choose to stay with this group, I hope you get to the bottom of the issues. I am happy to see that you at least have thought this might be a medical issue, because that gets over-looked sometimes.

I, like you, do a lot of reading on dog training and animal behavior, but I know my limits. I also know that just reading about an item is no substitute for experience.

Having said all of this, I really would like you to apologize. You have made this issue much bigger than it has to be, and I feel like you've disrespected some of my valued members.
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zxs107020
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Re: 6.5 months

Post by zxs107020 »

centrop67 wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:07 am You did write a frantic and dramatic post, and I believe the issues you've described are not normal and quite troublesome.

Regardless of whether you choose to stay with this group, I hope you get to the bottom of the issues. I am happy to see that you at least have thought this might be a medical issue, because that gets over-looked sometimes.

I, like you, do a lot of reading on dog training and animal behavior, but I know my limits. I also know that just reading about an item is no substitute for experience.
Yes, my post was quite frantic- I have already admitted that perhaps others made their recommendations because my post was a bit melodramatic. In hindsight, maybe I shouldnt have posted at all.

However, my findings support both my decision to post (in the interest of sharing my learning experience) AND also my insistence that this behavior is not an issue related to a lack of training, nor one that requires professional assistance.

So, I will not apologize for being right. Nor should I have had to defend myself or my dog to begin with.

I contacted the breeder, who warned me about this. I have also consulted a veterinarian. Moreover, I coincidentally received some very helpful advice from another member of this forum in a private message.

The sudden change in behavior (along with visibly noticeable physical changes) is almost 100% a sign that Cleo is going into her first heat cycle. I had noticed some early signs that this might be the case, but I wasnt expecting it to happen so "soon" because I had been told the average age is about 8 months. I was caught off guard because Ive never dealt with an animal in heat.

My little baby is becoming a woman.

:DSlove:
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Re: 6.5 months

Post by centrop67 »

I am truly happy that you've found a possible cause, and I wish nothing but the best for you and Cleo.

However, I am disappointed that you think your behavior and response to people that want to help you is okay.

Until you come to that realization, I think it would be best if you refrained from posting on our site.
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Re: 6.5 months

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix »

I didn't read the whole thread but I do have to say that from for anyone else searching or wondering, 5-7 months behavior changes are EXTREMELY normal for a DS. Their hormones kick in and drives increase and mature. This is where they stop being a cute, easy puppy and remain assholes until about 18-24 months, if they ever grow out of it. It is not all hormones but also drives that begin to mature and as the dog's defense drive matures as the dog realizes the world can harm itself and its family. This is also where some weak nerved dogs fail completely, where fear aggression, out right aggression, bad training habits, and civility can be born. The extent of the asshole phase depends on the lines, traits, and sometimes rearing of the dog. This is where you forge the dog you want to own through blood, sweat, intense time, money, and training. This is where you start sowing your fruit to be reaped at 3-10 years.
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