Dutch Shepherd Forum

Dedicated2Dogs wrote: ↑Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:23 am I spoke with my vet, she is trying to push me away from the breed because she has seen to many with bad tempers. I also direct messaged a trainer on Instagram who has a DS. His name is kanine.karma.trainjng he told me “They’re the most intense dogs on earth and unless someone has years of experience training high drive working dogs, it’s never a good idea. Any dog can hike and camp, these dogs will still be going 200mph after hiking 10 miles. They’re born and bred for bitework. That’s they’re purpose. If you don’t have an amazing trainer lined up to work with you on that stuff, I really wouldn’t get one.”

Dedicated2Dogs wrote: ↑Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:23 am I spoke with my vet, she is trying to push me away from the breed because she has seen to many with bad tempers. I also direct messaged a trainer on Instagram who has a DS. His name is kanine.karma.trainjng he told me “They’re the most intense dogs on earth and unless someone has years of experience training high drive working dogs, it’s never a good idea. Any dog can hike and camp, these dogs will still be going 200mph after hiking 10 miles. They’re born and bred for bitework. That’s they’re purpose. If you don’t have an amazing trainer lined up to work with you on that stuff, I really wouldn’t get one.”

Dedicated2Dogs wrote: ↑Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:23 am I spoke with my vet, she is trying to push me away from the breed because she has seen to many with bad tempers. I also direct messaged a trainer on Instagram who has a DS. His name is kanine.karma.trainjng he told me “They’re the most intense dogs on earth and unless someone has years of experience training high drive working dogs, it’s never a good idea. Any dog can hike and camp, these dogs will still be going 200mph after hiking 10 miles. They’re born and bred for bitework. That’s they’re purpose. If you don’t have an amazing trainer lined up to work with you on that stuff, I really wouldn’t get one.”

Tennessee3 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:16 pm You've already gotten some great advice on this.

But I'll share a bit of history & two analogies which I think will help explain what the pro dog trainers (Steve and Dave apparently lol) and the other owners here are saying.

These dogs (especially the KNPV/NKBV breedings which are by far the most common) are tough, aggressive, athletic, smart, protective, loyal & have energy for days. They're originally the poor country mans dog, who had a herd of sheep/goats or what not. They lived off meager scraps, received little to no medical attention or grooming. They were a tool, they were there to make the shepherds life easier, put food on that man's table so his kids literally could survive, and protect his property/family/flock. They were expected to herd sheep all day and protect all night.

They're a no frills working animal. They were not the dog of the wealthy or the city dweller.

These dogs were a staple in northwestern Europe (France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany etc) and their unique traits were first categorically recognized and utilized as being valuable to police/military/people in need of personal protection, in Germany by Captain Max Von Stephanitz who breed the best examples he could find to make the German Shepherd Dog. As a matter of national pride the Belgians & Dutch followed suit (Malinois mainly & Dutch Shepherd respectively). (Gross overview, but I'm not writing a book here! LOL)

In the modern era, the groups most responsible for maintaining and preserving these breeds as intended are the KNPV & NKBV. Programs that produce dogs suitable for serious work police/military/personal protection and dog sports. Vast Majority of the Dutchies you will find are connected to these programs. GSD's due to their popularity over the years are much more varied to the point the extremes of show lines vs working lines are basically different breeds. Which is where the GSD advice came from as you can easily find one more suitable to your tastes, whatever that may be, than you can a Dutchie.

So that's the brief history on to the analogy.

1) What are the police, military, and private security? They are organization empowered with the task of providing training to and the strategic use of people to commit violence (or the threat thereof) on our behalf in order to protect us, maintain societal order, and defend territory.

The difference between their actions and a violent criminal is intent & benefit. As such, the differences of personality and psychological makeup between a criminal & a police officer or infantry soldier is typically smaller than most people usually care to think about. Typically it's a difference of guidance, values, discipline, & mental stability. By the way, the above statement is far from a slight I won't detail my whole life story but I'm the furthest thing possible from a cop hater or anti-military, it's simply a realistic assessment of reality as born out both colloquially (have you ever heard the term "sheepdog" in reference to a cop or military member? Because the above is what it means, i.e. they're closer to the wolf (criminal) than the sheep (regular people) but they choose to use that for good) and through numerous scientific studies.

Dogs do not think to this same level, however, the point is that a good Shepherd IS capable of violence and aggression to a level capable of matching his partner in the police or military. Also like their partner they are disciplined & mentally stable, when raised properly and given healthy outlets. And that means more than going on hikes.

Which brings me to analogy number 2

Have you ever done any martial arts training: boxing, kickboxing, bjj, judo, wrestling etc? Or even a softer approximation of them like kickboxing fitness classes? Because protection sports for dogs are alot like martial arts for them. It requires & develops discipline, fitness, thinking under extreme pressure, toughness both mental & physical, & self confidence.

It's vastly more exhausting both mentally & physically than a hike & creates bonds on a much deeper level than your hiking buddy. Further, just like martial arts for humans it doesn't make them more prone to violence than they were in the first place, in fact it paradoxically does the exact opposite. It provides them the discipline, training, self confidence & mental clarity to accurately discern threats, confidence in their ability to defend themselves in any situation, and trust in their handlers judgement to let them know if there is anything to worry about.

Just like in people, the dude with multiple blackbelts isn't running around starting fights. He or she is too disciplined and confident in their abilities to feel threatened enough to need to.

All of that was a really really long way of saying of supporting what other people have told you, Dutchies shouldn't be your first choice if you want a hiking buddy that you've trained in obedience. They need more than that, you're basically asking if you should get a sports car as a daily commuter for city driving and acknowledging you'll need to follow the posted speed limits. That ain't why you get a sports car.

But if you are going to get one anyways, I strongly recommend the dog sports for providing it the proper outlets for it's natural temperament.

Amyaskinbeck wrote: ↑Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:50 pm I want to thank you for you analogies. We have a Dutch Shepherd/ German Shepherd mix. We rescued Tucker at 4 weeks old. He had an extremely difficult life in 4 weeks with some behavioral problems and physical. After 2000 in vet bills to get him physically healthy we noticed that he is smart but needed a confidence builder. We do hike 2 times a week but know he needs more. He has been in protection training for 3 months and loves it. It builds his confidence. When hiking he wants to jump over or on things all the time, so this week I’m going to look for agility classes. What I’m getting at is you have to be in tune to what your dog needs. Tucker is an amazing dog but it has been work, where our other dog a German Shepherd Rottie mix could Care less about all of this stuff. She just wants to be with us and hike. Thank you because I have a way of explaining why he is in protection training to people who think we are doing it just to make him mean. That’s not it at all. We have owned dogs our entire lives and have never spent this much energy on a dog.however this seems to be what he needs to have the confidence and for him to be happy.

Joxgirl wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:41 pm Good stuff above.
I’m just a nurse who wanted a dog for protection. I read up on this breed as soon as it was planted in my head. I knew from the very start that this was going to mean a life of dedication to this dog daily, with constant learning and training. There’s a pretty price tag with lessons with a trainer, but I’m in. I had to chose if I was ready to give up cruising the ocean and the random get-a-ways to costal vineyards. I’m in. We can take her camping when we start again and hopefully in the next year we will fly to NY. Meanwhile, this is no lap dog pet. I’m glad this forum is here and the store is nearby

Steve Gossmeyer wrote:

Look forward to meeting you!!!!

centrop67 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:37 am @Tennessee3 Your post is one of the most popular posts I've shared over on the Facebook page.

Thank you,

BTW - did you realize you actually gave us THREE analogies?
1. LEO/Military
2. Martial Arts
3. Race cars

Joxgirl wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:41 pm Good stuff above.
I’m just a nurse who wanted a dog for protection. I read up on this breed as soon as it was planted in my head. I knew from the very start that this was going to mean a life of dedication to this dog daily, with constant learning and training. There’s a pretty price tag with lessons with a trainer, but I’m in. I had to chose if I was ready to give up cruising the ocean and the random get-a-ways to costal vineyards. I’m in. We can take her camping when we start again and hopefully in the next year we will fly to NY. Meanwhile, this is no lap dog pet. I’m glad this forum is here and the store is nearby