Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Did you see a Dutch Shepherd somewhere? Out in public? On Television? In a movie?
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Kazdog
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Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by Kazdog »

Because if someone in another state is selling them for $2,000 anything less is a bargain, right?

http://texoma.craigslist.org/pet/4127668712.html

Part of me wants to say, "If CherCar kennels has people who will pay $2000 for puppies, good for them." But then I see things like this, and it's upsetting. Too many people see $$$$ and what they think is an easy opportunity for cash. :evil:

The best part is here though:

http://dgshepregistry.bravesites.com/about

"SINCE THE BREEDING OF A DUTCHMAN SHEPHERD TO EITHER A DUTCH SHEPHERD OR GERMAN SHEPHERD WOULD ALTER THE QUANTUM OF THE HYBRID, IN ONE DIRECTION OR THE OTHER, THE RESULTING LITTERS WOULD NOT QUALIFY AT THIS TIME."

I seriously want a quantum altered hybrid :D
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Asha
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Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by Asha »

hahahahaahhaah
Emily Owner of Three mutts
Charlie - beagle/basset 5yrs
Asha - No ### Idea brindle genius 1 yr
Russell - Redbone/GSD monster 6months
DS LOVER and obsessor
johninny
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Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
Location: NH/hamptons/nyc

Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by johninny »

so your point is that those breeders around the world who have worked assiduously for many years, sometimes decades, to maintain and advance the breed should reduce their prices to match those of your backyard-breeder friends? you rightly disapprove of the backyard breeding activities of your friends and the example you posted from Craigslist, but then you attack the prices of anyone doing a great job of breed advancement. doing a good job requires a lot of work, study, knowledge, and manpower and money for healthcare, training, competition [ that you espouse ], etc. your writing seems to suggest that you want everyone to descend to the lowest common denominator.
in all your discussion of backyard breeders that you say you have as friends and neighbors, you have not indicated here that you have addressed them with your [ and our ] concerns. that would be an excellent choice [ and good start ] rather than trying to tear down those that take the task of breeding so seriously and devote their lives to the benefit of this great breed.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
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racingiron1
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Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by racingiron1 »

That whole thing smacks of a typical Craigslist scam: no phone number in the ad, link to a dubious free website. Your example from the website seems to likely be a poor translation from German, as there are others there that I can spot as literal translation errors, even with my limited German knowledge.

I side with John on this one. I think your concern and disgust are shared by most here, but why direct that energy against the demonstrably responsible breeders? They are in a business and will tend to charge prices that the market will bear. If you think the system needs change, you'll have to influence demand (through education) or promote some sort of regulation. I think both would be useful, but neither is as easy as taking potshots on Internet forums from the comfort of your armchair.
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Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by Stacy_R »

Ditto what John said...

And ditto this, too:
racingiron1 wrote:I side with John on this one. I think your concern and disgust are shared by most here, but why direct that energy against the demonstrably responsible breeders? They are in a business and will tend to charge prices that the market will bear. If you think the system needs change, you'll have to influence demand (through education) or promote some sort of regulation. I think both would be useful, but neither is as easy as taking potshots on Internet forums from the comfort of your armchair.
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
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Asha
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Emily. I am the mother of two girls (human!!). We have one beagle named Charlie who is three and a new puppy named Asha. She is about 9 weeks old and we think she is a Dutch Shepherd Dog mix.

Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by Asha »

Whoops, I read this as Kazdog commenting on backyard breeders looking for $$$$, not responsible breeders like CherCar who are producing quality worth the amount. Am I totally wrong in this?
Emily Owner of Three mutts
Charlie - beagle/basset 5yrs
Asha - No ### Idea brindle genius 1 yr
Russell - Redbone/GSD monster 6months
DS LOVER and obsessor
johninny
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Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
Location: NH/hamptons/nyc

Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by johninny »

Emily, this ties into a different thread where the attack was more frontal, so some confusion is expected. but we all agree on the backyard breeders; it is just that some of us do not think that the blame for their existence should be put on the responsible breeders - and that there really is a world of difference between the two. you are right that the postings were comedic in their ridiculousness; it is just unfortunate that the stupidity that created those websites is steering the daily lives and the fate of living things that are likely more intelligent than itself.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
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Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by Selena »

Not for byb, but i really wont get $2000 for a puppy here. I sell mine for €400(about $500) and that includes the 21% taxes i have to pay for any sale, microchip, shots etc....
johninny
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Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
Location: NH/hamptons/nyc

Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by johninny »

i think that price is outside most experience, but seems to be the focus of a few people. it would be nice though if you all got more than you do and the byb's were left high and dry. i think many of these breeders sell some of their pups at whatever price and then dump the rest at shelters. my oldest pup - Sakima - was dumped by such a breeder in TN into a kill shelter, saved to another shelter, escaped 2x, the last time for quite a while, which is when i drove to IN to hunt for and rescue him.
i think Europe does not have the same, extensive problems with byb that the usa does. is that right? any specific reason other than our strange uneven culture?
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
Selena
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Selena van Leeuwen, 35 yo, married to Dick. We have 2 children, a boy just turned 3 and a girl who will be 2 in may. We breed xHH, we developed our own bloodline with in mind how a PSD should be in our eyes.
Location: Scherpenzeel, fr, the netherlands
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Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by Selena »

Prices here are lower, at least for the shepherds. Fci gsd's are about €850, fci malinois about €750, fci ds€600. Knpv dogs are between €250-400. Not all have to pay taxes, if yo breed more as 2 litters or 20 dogs tou're considere to breed professionally and you have to paytaxes. We bred the last few yrs about 3/4 litters. We have byb, mostly other breeds. Our shelters are all non kill shelters.
funkyhunky
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Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by funkyhunky »

BYB is less of a problem in Europe. It's well known that europeans can judge the quality of dogs just by looking at pictures on the internet.
Kind of like John's super power, "...if one can tell much from a single photo [ as i tend to believe ], and looks great, calm, loving, confident, and in good condition mentally and physically."

Really?
dan
Dan form Ontario
Kazdog
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Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by Kazdog »

My issue with CherCar is the hypocrisy. They go on and on about the importance of breeding “true working dogs” on their website. And their most recent litter has no “working” titled parents. Most of their Dutch Shepherds have conformation titles. A few have novice-level titles. If a breeder wants to work their ass off and put high-level working titles on their dogs, health clear them, and then charge $2000 for the puppies, that’s something different. CherCar attacks the FCI people for breeding out working ability, and then turns around and purpose-breeds low-drive pet dogs.

And if you want attacking, we have:

http://www.chercarkennels.net/dutchshep ... neage.html

“It’s too bad, but whenever somebody starts to attack others, it’s a form of insecurity.”

Followed by:

“The Groenendael is so small headed he couldn’t bite anything bigger than a hotdog, the Tervuren has lost its mind and gained severe epilepsy, the Lakenois is a heavy coated dead head.”

“I would say that if you are looking for a fine boned, jackal headed, dog aggressive, fearful shadow of what a dog could really be, check out one of those autocratic “pure” breeders. You will have the pleasure of owning a caricature of a dog. If you only want window dressing, if you don’t want to DO something with your dog, other than prance around a show ring, by all means get a long coated, dog aggressive pretender.”

I had a brief exchange with an AKC DS person and she said basically the same thing about the temperament of KNPV-line dogs. It’s kind of ironic, in a sad way.

I applaud CherCar for producing quality pet dogs. I applaud CherCar for health-testing their dogs. I applaud CherCar for doing some form of temperament testing on their dogs. But is it necessary to produce more pet-quality Dutch shepherds? Isn’t this why they are so opposed to FCI dogs?
Stacey
johninny
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Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
Location: NH/hamptons/nyc

Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by johninny »

previously posted by -
funkyhunky: ''I was pretty hard on them and did ruff them up a little at times.''
funkyhunky: ''She [ the DS ] is still keeping her distance from me, but she's being totally cool with the wife and kids.''

now in this thread, Dan, we again have the benefit of your very thoughtful and helpful commentary, quoting from my rescue posting of yesterday. not a point really worth debating with you nor was it the point of my rescue posting - and so not my point in responding to you as i prefer not to do that at all; nevertheless, it is similar to the idea that i also think is true that one can discern from phrases here and there over the internet a person who seems to think his primary purpose on earth is to bully and preside over his fellow man and maybe all living things.

when the totality of one of your posts is the simple proclamation that the excited mouthiness of my young puppies proves that they do not love me, it shows the kind of gratuitous spreading of meanness that seems to be the only motivator behind your occasional posts here. others might have offered their own ways to accelerate my pups out of their teething and overly-excited puppy habits, but you, as usual, thoroughly lacked any noble purpose in your superfluous commentary.

try letting the spirit of the forum infuse your own approach here, making positive contributions to solve others' problems and learning from others to improve your own methods and your dogs' lives. from what you have written as evidenced by the above quotes that i found very disquieting when you originally posted them, there seems to be plenty of room for improvement, which would probably start with a more sensitive and humane approach to your dogs, which i think most here believe are best when regarded as partners and family than as beasts to be subjugated.
Last edited by johninny on Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
funkyhunky
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Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by funkyhunky »

Your thesaurus must have been working overtime on the last post.
Good going John. It's great how you used one of my posts out of context.
Keep on believing that dogs are like little people with fur.
dan
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Asha
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Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by Asha »

CherCar is a business. It produces a much desired product and it does this better than most. Each dog also comes with certain guarantees that other "breeders" aren't willing to give and most likely have no knowledge of the reasons behind the guarantee. The main goal of any business is to maximize profits, a close second is to increase you client base.
What's so wrong with approaching a reputable breeder with a request for a more family oriented dog? Furthermore, what's so wrong with the breeder complying? This is a little known breed in the US.
I understand the desire to maintain the "secret club" but I'd rather see a breeder like CherCar "overproducing" (which they're not) than another undesirable kennel and especially a breeder of a more populous breed.
Emily Owner of Three mutts
Charlie - beagle/basset 5yrs
Asha - No ### Idea brindle genius 1 yr
Russell - Redbone/GSD monster 6months
DS LOVER and obsessor
johninny
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Posts: 1326
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:22 am
Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
Location: NH/hamptons/nyc

Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by johninny »

on this point there are reasonably different points of view here. having expressed them all - and Kazdog Stacey having reasonably explained hers - these different points of view will not merge into one, but perhaps we all can understand the various angles here now. aside from any actions we can support or help develop against backyard breeders and their ilk [ including making unpleasant noise in the direction of both byb and their customers ], the rest of this is up to the well-respected, responsible breeders who actually do in many cases talk and cooperate among themselves. so i would like to suggest we call it quits on this thread, following the lead of Eric on the previous related thread. Instead let's all ENJOY the WEEKEND with our DOGS.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
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Stacy_R
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Re: Bargain Dutch Shepherds

Post by Stacy_R »

johninny wrote: so i would like to suggest we call it quits on this thread, following the lead of Eric on the previous related thread. Instead let's all ENJOY the WEEKEND with our DOGS.
Amen, John.

:DScool:
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
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