Temperament Testing

[HARNW76]

I’m wondering.....If I tell a breeder what type of DS I’m looking for.
Things like good pray drive, lots of defensive drive, high food drive,
a hard dog, but also a dog that is solid between the ears. One that
is confident and secure in themselves. And then I tell them that I
want a dog that can do serious protection work and sport like PSA.
I’m wondering, can a breeder with the knowledge of the mating pair
and their pedigree along with their general observation of the puppies
be able to pick out the right puppy for me. Or would it absolutely necessary
for the breeder to do formal temperament testing with their puppies to
know such things and make a good choice.

[Christie M]

I think overall, yes, a good breeder should be able to evaluate their puppies and determine if they will be a good match for what you want. But puppies do mature, and they do change. So a puppy for serious sport work can still be somewhat of a crap shoot. Also, not very many people are familiar with PSA, so they may not understand the sport and what is required.

Can I ask why you want a high level of defense? Defense, especially demonstrated in a young dog, equates into suspicion and lots of thinking. My perfect PSA dog is a prey monster who will hang off of a tree because I told them they could. Biting is purely fun, and the most fun thing of all - so they will go through hell fire and damnation to get it. As a judge, we often create scenarios that test the dogs in tight spaces, out of sight of the handler with tons of pressure (upper levels obviously). A dog with tons of defense will be more likely to weigh their options once they get into the situation that one with a catch-kill attitude.

[Choochi]

A dog with tons of defense will be more likely to weigh their options once they get into the situation that one with a catch-kill attitude.

or may choose a fight with an enticing decoy is more important then doing another task (ie obedience at higher level where decoys are trying to get the dog to engage them while the dog is supposed to ignore them) at hand or might have reoccurring outing problems.

And yes I think that a good breeder, one with lots of experience in the breed and the lines they deal with will be able to give you a fairly good guess at what a puppy is going to turn out. You really want some one very knowledgable and that's certainly not every breeder out there. They need to know not just the parents but the other dogs in the pedigree (not what some one has told them or what they heard, as those kind of stories have a habit of becoming just that) and be familiar with any previous similar combinations. That said, there is a reason why people say that all puppies are a crap shot and why plenty of competition or working people get their dogs when they are around a year of age. Puppies can change a lot as they mature, some times it's fairly linear and predictable, some times they throw you a curve ball.

[HARNW76]

I think overall, yes, a good breeder should be able to evaluate their puppies and determine if they will be a good match for what you want. But puppies do mature, and they do change. So a puppy for serious sport work can still be somewhat of a crap shoot. Also, not very many people are familiar with PSA, so they may not understand the sport and what is required.

Can I ask why you want a high level of defense? Defense, especially demonstrated in a young dog, equates into suspicion and lots of thinking. My perfect PSA dog is a prey monster who will hang off of a tree because I told them they could. Biting is purely fun, and the most fun thing of all - so they will go through hell fire and damnation to get it. As a judge, we often create scenarios that test the dogs in tight spaces, out of sight of the handler with tons of pressure (upper levels obviously). A dog with tons of defense will be more likely to weigh their options once they get into the situation that one with a catch-kill attitude.

Ok let me back up bit. I talked earlier this week with a breeder. While we were talking they mentioned that they didn't do a "formal temperament test" with their puppies. And that's the reason for my question....can a breeder choose a puppy to meet my needs without a formal temperament test given the fact that they know their dogs lines, make good observations and so on. Or is a formal structured test absolutely a must. For example, if someone was looking for a dog to do SR work, would the breeder need to test the puppy to see how it handled heights and uneven surfaces before placing it? My bottom line on this question is, should I not consider any breeder who doesn't do a formal structured temperament test with their puppies or would that be taking this issue too far?
To answer your question Christie....My first priority for my DS will be to protect my wife and home. My hope is that I can find a dog that if trained well can do both protection and sport work. My concern is that if my dog is almost all pray (which will make him look great on a Sch. field) he will see his bite work as nothing more then a game of "tug-of-war". That without a sleeve or suit he wouldn't bite, especially under a real life threat.
It's my understanding that having a good share (whatever that amount should be) of defense will help in developing a dog that will bite when told to or when a situation threatens his owner, for real. Is this true or am I misunderstand the issue? Perhaps the answer is a proper level of both?
All help and insight is appreciated.

[Christie M]

I have competed in PSA since its inception and am a judge for the sport. My dogs are all house companions first, trial dogs second. My most competitive dog (and she became trial wise fast and blew me off in obedience.....so I am clearly not an expert) was a prey monster. That being said, she did have one real bite when someone came into my apartment and wasn't supposed to be there. A natural level of suspicion is good. A high level of defense can work against you in many ways. That's just my opinion.

As far as specific temperament testing, I don't do anything formal. I expose my puppies to a variety of things from day one and watch their development. With no specific structure, they are exposed to a variety of environmental stimuli, new people, children, animals...etc. And over time I can evaluate their temperaments. Honestly, they can change so much from day to day, so a formal test on day 42 may show one thing, but that same test on day 44 may show something very different. It is trends and personality over time that give you the best picture. So personally, I would not discount a breeder that does not "formally" test their dogs as long as they are continually challenging the dogs with new things and noting the effects. Of course I would say that because otherwise I would be discounting myself as a breeder

[HARNW76]

A dog with tons of defense will be more likely to weigh their options once they get into the situation that one with a catch-kill attitude.

or may choose a fight with an enticing decoy is more important then doing another task (ie obedience at higher level where decoys are trying to get the dog to engage them while the dog is supposed to ignore them) at hand or might have reoccurring outing problems.

And yes I think that a good breeder, one with lots of experience in the breed and the lines they deal with will be able to give you a fairly good guess at what a puppy is going to turn out. You really want some one very knowledgable and that's certainly not every breeder out there. They need to know not just the parents but the other dogs in the pedigree (not what some one has told them or what they heard, as those kind of stories have a habit of becoming just that) and be familiar with any previous similar combinations. That said, there is a reason why people say that all puppies are a crap shot and why plenty of competition or working people get their dogs when they are around a year of age. Puppies can change a lot as they mature, some times it's fairly linear and predictable, some times they throw you a curve ball.

The breeder that I talked with earlier this week said the same thing as you concerning how much puppies can change. Which is why I'm wondering if a formal structured temperament test is needed when selecting a particular puppy for a specific job. Will that increase the odds of getting a puppy that will some day meet your needs. Whatever that might be.

[Christie M]

Sorry, I thought it was implied.
My answer would be no. For a good breeder who spends time with their puppies and exposed them to various stimulus- a formal, structured temperament test is not needed, and probably only spoken of by breeders who are trying to talk too technical to make a sale.

[Christie M]

Or maybe a breeder who doesn't interact with their puppies until 6 weeks of age. For them - it would be educational. But for me, that's not a good breeder anyway.

[HARNW76]

I have competed in PSA since its inception and am a judge for the sport. My dogs are all house companions first, trial dogs second. My most competitive dog (and she became trial wise fast and blew me off in obedience.....so I am clearly not an expert) was a prey monster. That being said, she did have one real bite when someone came into my apartment and wasn't supposed to be there. A natural level of suspicion is good. A high level of defense can work against you in many ways. That's just my opinion.

As far as specific temperament testing, I don't do anything formal. I expose my puppies to a variety of things from day one and watch their development. With no specific structure, they are exposed to a variety of environmental stimuli, new people, children, animals...etc. And over time I can evaluate their temperaments. Honestly, they can change so much from day to day, so a formal test on day 42 may show one thing, but that same test on day 44 may show something very different. It is trends and personality over time that give you the best picture. So personally, I would not discount a breeder that does not "formally" test their dogs as long as they are continually challenging the dogs with new things and noting the effects. Of course I would say that because otherwise I would be discounting myself as a breeder

What you're tell me is very similar to what the breeder I was talking with earlier in the week had said. Your comments are so clear and concise that you've settled the matter for me. Thank you for your patience and willingness to share you knowledge with someone less experienced.
PS. You do this so well. Have you ever considered teaching others what you've learned, in a more formal and structured environment of course.

[Choochi]

I don't particularly buy into the puppy testing either although I won't fully discount it. I think it can give you some ideas of how the pup responds and may give you some indication of what they may become, but I will any day pick a breeder who does as Christie describes over a breeder who relies on a single puppy test at a single time in the pup's life. The test can be handy as additional information, but to me at least, not as a sole source of information.

Generally the standard puppy test is supposed to be done at a specific time in a pup's life, but still I go back to pups change so much. When I went to pick up my girl I read up on the test, talked to a local friend of mine who is experienced with it, and did I think all or most of it when I saw the pups. It was handy for giving me ideas on what to try with the pups. What my dog was then and what she is now, while there are some similarities, some differences are so wide she might as well be a different dog.

I have a litter of pups right now that are 3.5wks old and like Christie said I see general trends over a longer period of time and when I compare my notes, but the pups have done a number of Jekyl and Hyde personality flips on me already. The same pup on one day is a sweet compliant pup that loves to be held, on another is picking scraps with who ever she can and does not want to be restrained, the next day she ignores every one and just wants to explore her environment and doesn't mind being picked up. You wouldn't test pups this young, but as an example if you did test her on either of those 3 days you would likely get different results.

[Sugars Mom]

And of course, how the handler (owner) deals with the dog will have a lot to do with it as well...

[HARNW76]

Choochi & Sue & Christie
It seems as if there is a consensus among you. A formal temperament test can be useful and add additional insight into a puppy's drives, nerves, and such when done properly and at the proper time of life. However a formal test can't replace a breeders overall knowledge of the mating pair and their pedigree. Along with there general observations during a puppy's first 7 to 8 weeks. And the reason a formal test is not the "end all be all" is because puppies change so very much during the early part of their lifes. Additionally, what a test might indicate at that young age may not be what that puppy carries with them into adult hood. Yes?

[Choochi]

You got it!

I'll give you another example. When my girl was a pup, she may have shown some interest in chasing a thrown item, but retrieve? Retrieve yourself! She also had mediocre prey drive. She hit about 5 months, and all of that changed. She became an over night retrieve-aholic and that's all natural as I didn't spend much time teaching her a formal retrieve or doing much more then some drive building and simple obedience. If there are toys around she will bring them to you and shove them in your lap now, over and over, if we're out, she will find and pick up sticks and bring them to you or lay them at your feet and poke at you.

There was a lot about her then changed around the 6-9mo age. So some dogs don't show full potential until they begin to mature (I have heard of the same happening with dogs at 1,2 even 3yrs of age, again comes down to knowing the lines and that some mature slowly or that it's a possibility). Some dogs seem to have it all when they're babies right out of the box, some show some potential, some are sleeper puppies, some show potential and then fizzle off, and some never show potential and never get it naturally unless worked to cultivate what you want in them.

My boy was a crazy little prey monster since he was a baby and since I had him at 7wks he would retrieve any thing you threw. I have vids of him when he was 8wks old retrieving dumbells with a perfect grip, glass jars, staplers, what ever I threw he had to pick up and bring back.

BTW, I love all the questions you're asking and how thorough you are about this. I can't remember now, have you had a chance to go and meet any Dutchies, see them work? It's one thing to chat about this stuff, it's another to see it in person.

[Choochi]

And of course, how the handler (owner) deals with the dog will have a lot to do with it as well...

Yes, very important part of how a dog turns out!

[Selena]

I dont do fomal testing, and can predict a dog behaviour and character for about 80/95% at 1yo. ( variabty lies in the owner and how puppy is handled).
Know the lines observe puppy, interact with puppies etc. A. Redder can tell you A LOT!

[HARNW76]

You got it!

I'll give you another example. When my girl was a pup, she may have shown some interest in chasing a thrown item, but retrieve? Retrieve yourself! She also had mediocre prey drive. She hit about 5 months, and all of that changed. She became an over night retrieve-aholic and that's all natural as I didn't spend much time teaching her a formal retrieve or doing much more then some drive building and simple obedience. If there are toys around she will bring them to you and shove them in your lap now, over and over, if we're out, she will find and pick up sticks and bring them to you or lay them at your feet and poke at you.

There was a lot about her then changed around the 6-9mo age. So some dogs don't show full potential until they begin to mature (I have heard of the same happening with dogs at 1,2 even 3yrs of age, again comes down to knowing the lines and that some mature slowly or that it's a possibility). Some dogs seem to have it all when they're babies right out of the box, some show some potential, some are sleeper puppies, some show potential and then fizzle off, and some never show potential and never get it naturally unless worked to cultivate what you want in them.

My boy was a crazy little prey monster since he was a baby and since I had him at 7wks he would retrieve any thing you threw. I have vids of him when he was 8wks old retrieving dumbells with a perfect grip, glass jars, staplers, what ever I threw he had to pick up and bring back.

BTW, I love all the questions you're asking and how thorough you are about this. I can't remember now, have you had a chance to go and meet any Dutchies, see them work? It's one thing to chat about this stuff, it's another to see it in person.

Choochi,
I've never seen a DS in person, although I am trying to find one. For me they are a lot like BIG FOOT or the LOCK NEST MONSTER. I've heard stories about them. And I've seen pictures of them. I'm just not 100% sure they really exist.
I mentioned to a particular breeder of DS that I lived 30 minutes southwest of St.Louis Mo. and asked them to let me know if they had any of there dogs in the area. No response so far. Also, I noticed that there was a member of this forum that has a DS from one of the breeders that I'm considering that lives very close to me. I told him that I would like to visit his club and see his puppy. No response from him either.

[Christie M]

There is a guy named Justin who is in the St. Louis area with a puppy from Asheley's spring breedings. He does not check the forum often, but I am sure he would be happy to meet up with you and discuss dogs. I can contact him and send ask if I can send you his contact info, or I will send him yours if you would like. He is a very nice guy! His goal is also PSA, and I think he mostly trains at the Tom Rose school there.

[HARNW76]

There is a guy named Justin who is in the St. Louis area with a puppy from Asheley's spring breedings. He does not check the forum often, but I am sure he would be happy to meet up with you and discuss dogs. I can contact him and send ask if I can send you his contact info, or I will send him yours if you would like. He is a very nice guy! His goal is also PSA, and I think he mostly trains at the Tom Rose school there.

Christie, that's the same guy that I posted a message to but have yet to hear a reply. It would be great if you could help me get in contact with him. Feel free to share any of my information with him.
Also, I know Tom's school. I was there a few weeks ago to pick up our rescue dog. I got my first taste of formal training from Tom over twenty years ago.

[Christie M]

Justin is actually here in TN for the holidays and will be training with us. I will make sure to make him aware of this conversation. I am quite sure he hasn't checked the board recently and doesn't know he has a PM.

[StepUp]

You got it!

I'll give you another example. When my girl was a pup, she may have shown some interest in chasing a thrown item, but retrieve? Retrieve yourself! She also had mediocre prey drive. She hit about 5 months, and all of that changed. She became an over night retrieve-aholic and that's all natural as I didn't spend much time teaching her a formal retrieve or doing much more then some drive building and simple obedience. If there are toys around she will bring them to you and shove them in your lap now, over and over, if we're out, she will find and pick up sticks and bring them to you or lay them at your feet and poke at you.

There was a lot about her then changed around the 6-9mo age. So some dogs don't show full potential until they begin to mature (I have heard of the same happening with dogs at 1,2 even 3yrs of age, again comes down to knowing the lines and that some mature slowly or that it's a possibility). Some dogs seem to have it all when they're babies right out of the box, some show some potential, some are sleeper puppies, some show potential and then fizzle off, and some never show potential and never get it naturally unless worked to cultivate what you want in them.

My boy was a crazy little prey monster since he was a baby and since I had him at 7wks he would retrieve any thing you threw. I have vids of him when he was 8wks old retrieving dumbells with a perfect grip, glass jars, staplers, what ever I threw he had to pick up and bring back.

BTW, I love all the questions you're asking and how thorough you are about this. I can't remember now, have you had a chance to go and meet any Dutchies, see them work? It's one thing to chat about this stuff, it's another to see it in person.

Choochi,
I've never seen a DS in person, although I am trying to find one. For me they are a lot like BIG FOOT or the LOCK NEST MONSTER. I've heard stories about them. And I've seen pictures of them. I'm just not 100% sure they really exist.
I mentioned to a particular breeder of DS that I lived 30 minutes southwest of St.Louis Mo. and asked them to let me know if they had any of there dogs in the area. No response so far. Also, I noticed that there was a member of this forum that has a DS from one of the breeders that I'm considering that lives very close to me. I told him that I would like to visit his club and see his puppy. No response from him either.

Sorry I am not very active on the board. You are more than welcome to meet my puppy! He is about 7 months old. I will be back in town in January. I recently started training with a new club in St. Charles.