Training with a Dogtra IQ

[MultiPurposeK9]

I recently have been helping an agency K9 with "directional control". Although her initial response to her hand signal was ok in direction she wouldn't move far enough downrange, left or right and to move away from her handler. Her stops were not as good as could be, for obvious reasons we do not you a whistle stop so she needs to continue to focus back to the handler for directional cues.
The handler is not a bad handler but, he has not continued to get really good with body language and more importantly inflection in his voice with for some handlers can be tough when giving praise and verbal corrections. To me it is just as exciting for me to praise and correct. Actually the correction to me is better it becomes a "teaching moment".
I have started her on a IQ and have really had nice results simply using the "Nic" at a very low level and the "page". She is casting out farther and keeping her focus back toward me. I guess this is pretty normal for hunting dogs doing "blind" retrieves. My question is Have any of you had similar success with an IQ? Oh, forgot to mention, she is a "Terv". And a nice one at that!

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Low level stim is quickly becoming my favorite with H now that's he's older and understands the ropes. He seems to prefer it too. I think it's less the equipment (i.e., the IQ) as the tool and concept behind the use of low level stim that makes a difference in training. I still prefer wholly positive until the pup can take a stronger correction before introducing prong or stim but I know some people love to do foundation until 5-6 months and then only use stim.

Sounds like the agency K9 never really had experience with various send out trainings. In sport I know there was several methods of hiding balls, throwing balls, using stands, using decoys, all to teach the dog that a send out wasn't to a specific place but rather a direction and to continue until it either hit the target or was directed elsewhere. When you say "focus" do you mean eyes on handler or just being aware that if called to return mid-send out it does so immediately?

[MultiPurposeK9]

I typically want the dog to take glances back to the handler to look for another cue to continue moving or redirect or stop. I don't require the dog to run hard ( as in sending to apprehend) in fact I prefer them to be more deliberate head up and getting into a "scent cone".

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

So it's a scent dog and not an apprehension dog then? Okay that makes a bit more sense. But why would you want the dog to be so handler focused if it's scenting? Is it higher in hunt drive so you're trying to prevent the "do anything to find it" or does it just need more encouragement from handler? Just curious as scent training is something I've been doing with H so always curious to hear other theories and applications of training.

[MultiPurposeK9]

Great questions. As I am sure you know and have seen drug dogs and explosive detection dogs often work on leash following the handlers cues to search a particular area, fender, door jam, piece of luggage, ventilation duct, trash can etc. Using "directional control" there is "no leash" connection only visual, sound from handler or radio to communicate to the K9. SSD, SAR Urban and TEDD are deployed in this manner. It is all about teamwork, using tactical advantage and keeping you, your team mates and the dog safe while accomplishing the mission. If you haven't done any I would encourage you to do some nosework with Hendrix
and see the subtle changes in behavior, tail set, tail beat, ear set, breathing pattern as he begins to work a scent cone. It's easy to do, around six or so cardboard boxes, his favorite toy or food so he self rewards a find and away you go. Of course there is a lot more than that so research it a bit. Watching an odor dog work is so cool and understanding what they are communicating back is to me the true definition of teamwork.

[MultiPurposeK9]

In my last response I mentioned TEDD working off leash, my mistake it is MDD for the US Army that deploy these types of K9s. It can be so confusing at times, MPC, MWD, MDD, PEDD, TEDD, NDD, EDD ,CTD, PNDD and on and on

[Raven]

What exactly were you asking again? (This is for my benefit. I thought Kira was closing in, but then it seemed maybe not.)

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

As a fun little aside, there's actually a study that looked at how much agility and S&R dogs look at handlers to figure out puzzles. Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19520242 (full article here: http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Train ... 202009.pdf)

The study set out to determine if training history could influence a dog's response in a test. They set up a cognetive test of 3 "solvable" puzzles which had an apparatus that needed to be manipulated to get food. The last was an "unsolvable" puzzle where obtaining the food was impossible. Three groups were used: SAR dogs, agility dogs, and untrained "pet" dogs. All three groups performed fairly equally towards the apparatus, but there was significant differences in human-directed eye gaze.
In the solvable trial:agility dogs looked at a human (researcher or owner) more than S&R dogs and almost on par with the pet dogs. SAR dogs looked the least amount of times at the owner or researcher.
In the unsolvable trial: most of the dogs looked at a person in the unsolvable trial but no differences in amount of times a dog looked at the owner was noted, however, agility dogs looked at for longer periods of time specifically the owner (rather than researcher) longer than SAR and pet dogs, SAR dogs exhibited more barking than pet or agility dogs. SAR dogs also had more alternation of gaze (looking from apparatus to owner and back) than agility dogs, but agility dogs had more alternation of gaze than pet dogs.
Training DID influence the style of communication of the dogs. A quote from the paper, "However our results also suggest that training shapes the dogs’ communicative behaviour in two ways: (1) in terms of their inclination to communicate, with agility dogs doing so more frequently, for longer and in potentially unnecessary/redundant situations, and (2) in the dogs’ communicative style, with S&R dogs using both vocalization and gazing to get attention where agility dogs use only the latter... This is perhaps not surprising since both in agility and S&R dogs need to look at the owner to both follow and give directions, and their relative success is based on a high level of communication within the dog–human team."

So my question is, what do you mean by "check in" with handlers Multipurpose K9? Do they do it after a sector search or during a search? Or is it a specific behavior on a trail? From what I have gathered, most police departments train as an overall check and then for the dog to break it down sector by sector, even on cars, only being redirected if it misses a spot or the handler wants to recheck something. Frequent handler check in's or looking at the handler can cause false alerts even if the handler is reading the dog is what I'm told. I've heard the same for some of the SAR groups here - if they train for "check in"s it's usually after a sector/area search. But I've heard rubble searches are different due to the danger and air changes. I like hearing about all theories and reasons for training scent/trailing/tracking and am curious to hear about your reasons.

H and I currently are working in tracking and aim to head into scent work soon - it is very fun to watch him "read" the air and ground to get to his prize!

[Dutchringgirl]

From what I have gathered, most police departments train as an overall check and then for the dog to break it down sector by sector, even on cars, only being redirected if it misses a spot or the handler wants to recheck something. Frequent handler check in's or looking at the handler can cause false alerts even if the handler is reading the dog is what I'm told. I've heard the same for some of the SAR groups here - if they train for "check in"s it's usually after a sector/area search. But I've heard rubble searches are different due to the danger and air changes. I like hearing about all theories and reasons for training scent/trailing/tracking and am curious to hear about your reasons.

H and I currently are working in tracking and aim to head into scent work soon - it is very fun to watch him "read" the air and ground to get to his prize!

I used to help work with the police dogs when I was done for the day training RS, and I agree Kira, there wasnt alot of check in. The dog was told what to do and the dog did it, unless there was a missed spot, the handler watched the dog and just let the dog do his thing and read the body language. But I am no expert, just what I have seen.


I had wanted to so nose work with Sadie but could not find one close enough, she air scents all of the time and it is so cool.

[Raven]

she air scents all of the time and it is so cool.

It's nothing near professional, but Thor and I do scent work/tracking, and being a DS, he's a natural. He's done some super-cool stuff, but one that comes to mind is a day out back, just hanging, he picked up a scent in the air----game on!----and he went nuts at the fence line (stockade, he can't see other side); I had to call him off.

The neighbors had a contractor in their backyard and Thor was reacting to the "intruder" in their yard (it wasn't "Uncle" Gary's or "Aunt" Barb's scent). Danger, Will Rogers, danger.

The neighbors appreciate his vigilance.

Anyway, about this thread...I was wondering from the beginning why one would use shock with scent detection. I don't get it.

[MultiPurposeK9]

Great questions. The simple answer lies in how the K9 is being deployed, on leash or off leash and is the dog doing patrol or detection. SAR dogs (urban) are taught to bark as an alert as are most (wilderness).An example might be working an Urban SAR K9 on a large rubble pile off leash above the handler (think WTC) the dog can be redirected or moved across the pile depending on wind direction or obstacles to help the dog get into the wind. MPC work the same, off leash and the ability of the handler to move the dog in different directions from distance. They don't use a bark alert but use a passive alert. Nosework can be done without being in a class, all you need is 5-6 cardboard boxes, a reward toy or food. You can use a helper or do it yourself and building hunt drive in most Dutchies is pretty easy. As the game progress you will begin to notice how they have caught on, shortened the search time, focus on the odor and work a scent cone to apex all the time communicating with you by ear sets and tail sets, head snaps.

[Raven]

Man, I'm being a real dolt with this. Why use shock with scent detection. Sorry...I still don't get it. What am I missing?

[Dutchringgirl]

Thanks for the explanation Roger, I get it. Sharon, you are not using the shock for discapline, but to tell the dog " okay, over here now" If the dog is over there with out a leash, you can get his attention to now go over there and sniff.

Am I correct in that Roger?

When I had Thalie on the collar for off leash training, it was also to say, come back here, or , that far enough, it was to get their attention to now do something else.

[Stacy_R]

Danger, Will Rogers, danger.

I just snort-laughed. Mainly because you are one of the few people other than me who uses that... LOL

[MultiPurposeK9]

Yes, it is just a tool to communicate with a K9 when off leash. It is used in directional control and can be used in recall. We use a simple training exercise called walking baseball, Start at home plate and send your dog away from you to the pitchers mound, stop him and redirect him to first base, then out to second, over third, back to second, back to home dropping at the pitchers mound and finishing in heel at home plate. It can be done with platforms or bumpers, place or retrieves, the e collars help with control when the distances increase and distractions become greater. It is an "attention getting" tool rather than a correction per say. The key is how the K9 is deployed, again think a large rubble pile, away from a handler but in eye sight, lots of loud noise, equipment, other dogs it is a plus in communication.

[Raven]

So they're trained by type/level to know by that type/level they are to look to the handler for redirect (also meaning that type/level would only be used for that specific purpose, yes?)?

I see where that's easier than using sound, but are they also trained to look to handler by sound? Are they only trained these days on shock?

So far, Roger's question hasn't been answered, I don't think....

[Dutchringgirl]

That is a very cool training program!! Now that I think about it, it sounds like RIng Sport, where the dog has a set of things they must do with out the handler. The blinds, they must search by learning to run a pattern then when they find the decoy, know what to do, then next , then next. Or maybe not, LOL

But I do get how you use it, they are very handy.

[Dutchringgirl]

So they're trained by type/level to know by that type/level they are to look to the handler for redirect (also meaning that type/level would only be used for that specific purpose, yes?)?

I see where that's easier than using sound, but are they also trained to look to handler by sound? Are they only trained these days on shock?

So far, Roger's question hasn't been answered, I don't think....

Oh, I better go back and look at his question.

[MultiPurposeK9]

In some cases they can be trained to sound, voice or a whistle in others, where sound can't be communicated do to environmental obstacles, noise and such or tactical reasons, not giving away your position or the dogs. Yes it is like ring sport but differs in that the dog is not using sight but using odor to find the apex. In ring and I am not an expert no matter what direction the wind is moving the dog goes to the blind by seeing it, in odor if the wind is at the dogs back moving away from him it is much harder for him to get "birdie". By using directional control and an e collar as a way to communicate you can move a k9 around to where he can get his head "into the wind" quarter the sent cone and proceed to the source.

[MultiPurposeK9]

You girls have been great. It is me who falls short in communicating through the written word. An e collar might help me a little and feel free to give corrections whenever needed. I believe I am a very good teacher with handlers and communicator with K9s, unfortunately you have to be there but you have all the tools and the understanding of how to communicate with your dogs. Have some fun with them, experiment try different things test yourself and your dog. Push for goals small to start and work up to higher in time. Reward the K9s but, don't forget to reward yourself. If any of you get out my way lets COACH 'em up for a day or two, talk dog, have a beverage and be greatful that we are part of a very select group.