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Out

General issues of training/education
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DaHawaiianDS
Puppy
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:07 pm
Tell us about yourself: Proud owner of Kapena (DS), Shorty (Senior Dachshund), and Ember (dsh cat)

Out

Post by DaHawaiianDS » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:26 pm

Should out or Auss be used instead of drop? We were around the club dogs all weekend while they we working. Kapena and I just sat and watched.

One of the members, having primarily DS dogs, suggested he was so far bonded to me he would not perform when he could see me so I stepped out of view.

It was at that time that without any training whatsoever, just watching the other dogs respond to commands, I noticed him performing "out" with an accuracy I have yet to get him to "drop it" with.

Having never taught him out, only having group exposure to it. We brought him home and tried it with his favorite toys and chews. The things that he always wants to hesitate on. Sure enough, one "out!" is all it takes now and it doesn't matter what it is.

Has anyone else noticed your DS learning commands from group train environments? Myself, I think Kapena's pretty brilliant.

Also:. He doesn't like their flirt pole at training. Try as we might when someone else is at the end of it he just looks at me and arches an eyebrow. I'm hoping letting some of the experienced handlers and my trainer work with him will make him want to participate more. Because right now the others go nuts for the sleeve and he just sits there like a perfect gent and waits for me to say something.

They said I need to develop his independence. Any way of doing this without losing control of Kapena?
Proud Pack Mama of Shorty (Doxie, IVDD Senior), Ember (DSH Dilute calico once feral), and Kapena (DS puppers, snarky back talker extraordinaire)

Steve Gossmeyer
Training Dog
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm
Tell us about yourself: Schutzhund helper and trainer I own and work two Dutchies
Location: Long Island

Re: Out

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:07 pm

Listen to your trainer! But honestly a big part of your issue is how the dog lives and was raised... most sport dogs are crated or in a pen in the yard not loose in the house learning manners...I have two club members that do this with their dogs and it shows big time! Their dogs have a lot less drive are lazier and not as committed as say Yoda who if he's out of the pen in the yard he's in his crate or working... he does get small bouts of hangout time with me in the house but it's managed and literally like 5 minutes cause he's a drivey bastard! A lot of people don't understand this until you see the difference... but your dog will catch on and work through this it will just take longer... I do nothing that kills drive with Yoda... he's in his pen (10x10) from 5am till 11-12pm then in his crate in the house... he knows when he's out it's time to work! Now after a long week of training we go for a hike in the woods or a long walk or a swim... things like having toys all the time kill drive why? Would you go to work everyday if someone paid you all everyday to do nothing or if do you go to work because that's how you get paid? Plus all the discipline that happens for house manners kills drive... not everyone is willing or understanding of raising a dog this way... my ipo dogs prefer this lifestyle Yoda is much happier in his pen doing whatever he pleases and loses his shit when he sees me dressed to train... but this is honestly why you see the behavior you do with your dog... he will get through it but it's takes longer than a dog that's raised this way...

Steve Gossmeyer
Training Dog
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm
Tell us about yourself: Schutzhund helper and trainer I own and work two Dutchies
Location: Long Island

Re: Out

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:13 pm

The only thing you can personally do is crate him more or use a pen in the yard... this will also teach the dog to be more independent of you.. right now everything he needs comes from you and he hasn't learned to entertain himself on his own

Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4867
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Out

Post by Dutchringgirl » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:27 pm

I agree with steve on the why and hows of the drive. Most of the people I trained with in my club did that. but also, many just had the dogs in the house, on the couch, in bed, etc. its what you want out of the dog. We understood they why;s of it but chose not to do that. and it was ok with us that our dogs may not have had the drive. we were not out to win. It was not our job, just fun with the dogs and learning some great stuff. I wanted to be around my dogs and understood what would be lost in the training.

Just look at both sides and under stand them.

You cant ask for the drive and willingness if they are out and about the house, its ok, but dont expect it.

it does not mean it cant be done. Ours learned everything and did everything fine, we always scored very high, but it may have took us longer.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4867
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Out

Post by Dutchringgirl » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:28 pm

Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:13 pm
The only thing you can personally do is crate him more or use a pen in the yard... this will also teach the dog to be more independent of you.. right now everything he needs comes from you and he hasn't learned to entertain himself on his own
this is Sadie, it is really hard having her so dependent on me. She was a rescue and bonded right to Thalie, she hates to be alone. Start now to get him more independent. Now that Thalie is older and is in more she has bonded to me.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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DaHawaiianDS
Puppy
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:07 pm
Tell us about yourself: Proud owner of Kapena (DS), Shorty (Senior Dachshund), and Ember (dsh cat)

Re: Out

Post by DaHawaiianDS » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:26 pm

Can you guys recommend a good covered kennel to put on the deck or the grass? I think it would help for him to be away from view of the household goings on to build confidence. He is crated anywhere from 4-6 hrs a day during the weekdays and is fine. He sleeps and eats crated also.
Proud Pack Mama of Shorty (Doxie, IVDD Senior), Ember (DSH Dilute calico once feral), and Kapena (DS puppers, snarky back talker extraordinaire)

DaHawaiianDS
Puppy
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:07 pm
Tell us about yourself: Proud owner of Kapena (DS), Shorty (Senior Dachshund), and Ember (dsh cat)

Re: Out

Post by DaHawaiianDS » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:55 pm

Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:07 pm
Listen to your trainer! But honestly a big part of your issue is how the dog lives and was raised... most sport dogs are crated or in a pen in the yard not loose in the house learning manners...I have two club members that do this with their dogs and it shows big time! Their dogs have a lot less drive are lazier and not as committed as say Yoda who if he's out of the pen in the yard he's in his crate or working... he does get small bouts of hangout time with me in the house but it's managed and literally like 5 minutes cause he's a drivey bastard! A lot of people don't understand this until you see the difference... but your dog will catch on and work through this it will just take longer... I do nothing that kills drive with Yoda... he's in his pen (10x10) from 5am till 11-12pm then in his crate in the house... he knows when he's out it's time to work! Now after a long week of training we go for a hike in the woods or a long walk or a swim... things like having toys all the time kill drive why? Would you go to work everyday if someone paid you all everyday to do nothing or if do you go to work because that's how you get paid? Plus all the discipline that happens for house manners kills drive... not everyone is willing or understanding of raising a dog this way... my ipo dogs prefer this lifestyle Yoda is much happier in his pen doing whatever he pleases and loses his shit when he sees me dressed to train... but this is honestly why you see the behavior you do with your dog... he will get through it but it's takes longer than a dog that's raised this way...
Thanks Steve and Dutch Ring Girl!
Anthony agreed with them, and seemed to also give me the idea that having a working dog that won't work without his one person pretty much counts us out of any handler / helper training and competition in the future. He seemed to trust this person's input and suggested I allow them to take him into a heel and walk him around the ring while the other dogs were reacting to the whip and flirt pole. I hid behind the shed and watched. He did good for a first time! (Ever with a stranger, in a ring, new sounds and the other dogs reactions!).

Thank you for the hope that this will build. My husband is going to train for decoy to be a helper as well. He figured the more involved we are the more learning opportunities for experience we will have. He LOVED it.
Proud Pack Mama of Shorty (Doxie, IVDD Senior), Ember (DSH Dilute calico once feral), and Kapena (DS puppers, snarky back talker extraordinaire)

DaHawaiianDS
Puppy
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:07 pm
Tell us about yourself: Proud owner of Kapena (DS), Shorty (Senior Dachshund), and Ember (dsh cat)

Re: Out

Post by DaHawaiianDS » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:59 pm

Also I meant to say about the toys. He has the big red ball and frisbee he LOVES the most. Per suggestions I keep them to minimal usage. Bring them out, play, bring them on with me. Also no toys around at all during flirt pole, cuz he won't touch it if he thinks he can get those. I'm learning so much!!

If all else fails and he never finds that drive, I know he enjoys the agility course and we can focus on what puts his smarts and energy to good use. I'm so lucky to have found them Steve! They're starting an APA club out here now too, and my husband has a new hobby!
Proud Pack Mama of Shorty (Doxie, IVDD Senior), Ember (DSH Dilute calico once feral), and Kapena (DS puppers, snarky back talker extraordinaire)

Tennessee3
Puppy
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:29 pm
Tell us about yourself: GSD puppy in training for Schutzhund

Looking to add a Dutch for the same + PP work, once my current puppy is titled.

Re: Out

Post by Tennessee3 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:23 pm

Sounds like you just need to focus on drive development and recognize that having a working dog also be a pet is a longer process. You're teaching the dog 2 different intricate skill sets, how to behave in the house and how to behave when it's time to work.

I'd recommend you give this book a read if you haven't already Schutzhund Obedience Training in Drive by Sheila Booth

Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4867
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Out

Post by Dutchringgirl » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:08 pm

unless you are going for championships and big titles, youll be just fine. we were. It is annoying though having them only be one human dogs. Work a lot on that and the independence.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
ImageImage

Steve Gossmeyer
Training Dog
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm
Tell us about yourself: Schutzhund helper and trainer I own and work two Dutchies
Location: Long Island

Re: Out

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:30 pm

I'm going for dutchie ipo nationals next year!!!!

Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4867
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Out

Post by Dutchringgirl » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:50 am

Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:30 pm
I'm going for dutchie ipo nationals next year!!!!
you mean you are going to win at the Nationals !!! You rock Steve !!
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
ImageImage

Steve Gossmeyer
Training Dog
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm
Tell us about yourself: Schutzhund helper and trainer I own and work two Dutchies
Location: Long Island

Re: Out

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:41 am

Dutchringgirl wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:50 am
Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:30 pm
I'm going for dutchie ipo nationals next year!!!!
you mean you are going to win at the Nationals !!! You rock Steve !!
I hope so!!!!!!

TimL_168
Training Dog
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:11 pm
Tell us about yourself: Hi,
Short and sweet here- I'm a father of 2 boys, a carpenter, hunter, runner. We have extensive experience with sled dogs, shepherd mixes, a wolf hybrid, and our current dog a 95# long haired Shiloh Shepherd. I'm looking for a more energetic dog that had the same intelligence and trainability. I'm interested in advice, opinions, and a place to share experiences.
Location: central MD

Re: Out

Post by TimL_168 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:16 am

Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:07 pm
A lot of people don't understand this until you see the difference... but your dog will catch on and work through this it will just take longer... I do nothing that kills drive with Yoda... he's in his pen (10x10) from 5am till 11-12pm then in his crate in the house... he knows when he's out it's time to work!
This is totally accurate. Even on a daily basis, there is a difference in En's desire to work between when she's been put up and when she's been loose.
As to house manners conflicting with working drive, I've been intrigued with En since the day I got her. She's NEVER gotten in the trash, up on the counter, even reared up on the table. When she's searching, There's nothing off limits to her. She'll thoroughly check out the counter, tables, trash can...she jumped up on the dryer to hit the top shelves next to it, then she almost jumped down into the washer. I've been careful with it. It really seems she knows that the rules are different. Whatever foundation work her old owner did worked well, and I'm just trying to keep it up.
Tim L.
Aurora(Shiloh) Endeavor

ICE
Green Dog
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:32 am
Tell us about yourself: I have a 12 week old dutch shepherd that my trainer got for me to train in schutzhund. This is my 1st dutch shepherd, I have always had german shepherds. Currently, I have 4 dogs.

Re: Out

Post by ICE » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:06 pm

It all depends on what you want. I personally don’t believe in deprivation training. I don’t even use correction collars. I prefer to build training on our relationship. It does take me longer to get behaviors but I don’t mind. We do multiple sports and have fun at each and every one. We do sports for fun and keeping both of us active. He is my companion first. Yes there are free toys in my yard and in my house but when I am ready to train and work on sport behaviors, he is all in.
So, bottom line is you either want a tool to get you to the podium or you want a companion to do fun sports with.
Patty and Ice

Joxgirl
Training Dog
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: Brought a Dutch Shepherd into our lives.
Location: Southern California

Re: Out

Post by Joxgirl » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:18 pm

Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:07 pm
Listen to your trainer! But honestly a big part of your issue is how the dog lives and was raised... most sport dogs are crated or in a pen in the yard not loose in the house learning manners...I have two club members that do this with their dogs and it shows big time! Their dogs have a lot less drive are lazier and not as committed as say Yoda who if he's out of the pen in the yard he's in his crate or working... he does get small bouts of hangout time with me in the house but it's managed and literally like 5 minutes cause he's a drivey bastard! A lot of people don't understand this until you see the difference... but your dog will catch on and work through this it will just take longer... I do nothing that kills drive with Yoda... he's in his pen (10x10) from 5am till 11-12pm then in his crate in the house... he knows when he's out it's time to work! Now after a long week of training we go for a hike in the woods or a long walk or a swim... things like having toys all the time kill drive why? Would you go to work everyday if someone paid you all everyday to do nothing or if do you go to work because that's how you get paid? Plus all the discipline that happens for house manners kills drive... not everyone is willing or understanding of raising a dog this way... my ipo dogs prefer this lifestyle Yoda is much happier in his pen doing whatever he pleases and loses his shit when he sees me dressed to train... but this is honestly why you see the behavior you do with your dog... he will get through it but it's takes longer than a dog that's raised this way...
Steve, what kind of pen do you have for outside?
Saralee
Rogue (Dutch Shepherd)-19 weeks old.
Phoenix (Lab rescue) -10 y/o
Charley (Malti-Poo; rescue)-4 y/o

Steve Gossmeyer
Training Dog
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm
Tell us about yourself: Schutzhund helper and trainer I own and work two Dutchies
Location: Long Island

Re: Out

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:29 pm

Joxgirl wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:18 pm
Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:07 pm
Listen to your trainer! But honestly a big part of your issue is how the dog lives and was raised... most sport dogs are crated or in a pen in the yard not loose in the house learning manners...I have two club members that do this with their dogs and it shows big time! Their dogs have a lot less drive are lazier and not as committed as say Yoda who if he's out of the pen in the yard he's in his crate or working... he does get small bouts of hangout time with me in the house but it's managed and literally like 5 minutes cause he's a drivey bastard! A lot of people don't understand this until you see the difference... but your dog will catch on and work through this it will just take longer... I do nothing that kills drive with Yoda... he's in his pen (10x10) from 5am till 11-12pm then in his crate in the house... he knows when he's out it's time to work! Now after a long week of training we go for a hike in the woods or a long walk or a swim... things like having toys all the time kill drive why? Would you go to work everyday if someone paid you all everyday to do nothing or if do you go to work because that's how you get paid? Plus all the discipline that happens for house manners kills drive... not everyone is willing or understanding of raising a dog this way... my ipo dogs prefer this lifestyle Yoda is much happier in his pen doing whatever he pleases and loses his shit when he sees me dressed to train... but this is honestly why you see the behavior you do with your dog... he will get through it but it's takes longer than a dog that's raised this way...
Steve, what kind of pen do you have for outside?
10x10 welded wire pen...

Joxgirl
Training Dog
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: Brought a Dutch Shepherd into our lives.
Location: Southern California

Re: Out

Post by Joxgirl » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:42 pm

Awesome. Buying one for Tractor Suppy
Saralee
Rogue (Dutch Shepherd)-19 weeks old.
Phoenix (Lab rescue) -10 y/o
Charley (Malti-Poo; rescue)-4 y/o

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