What would you make of this?

[Karin]

So Tygo turned 9 months old. He was neutered at 7.5 months (I know there is controversy around that, but...)
After working with a trainer with ecollar and prong, he is fabulous with obedience (with no dog distractions, or dogs he knows) and I have been able to help him greet dogs appropriately (no maniacal humping which was the problem before). We walk in the forest a lot and he is off lead a lot there. We frequently run into dogs and people but nothing like a dog park... although there are a fair number of dogs. All has been going well. Tygo plays with different dogs and I have noticed that he is good about varying his intensity with dogs depending on their energy. His favorite thing is to be chased and he will run for miles if being chased. THEN...

My husband was walking Tygo and a person with a 6 month old aussie came up. Tygo whimpers on lead at dogs and clearly wants to engage them. He loves to play. So husband asked if it is okay and the aussie woman says yes. They play off lead for 3-4 minutes. Then aussie lady is leaving and calls her dog. Her aussie goes to my husband and sits at his feet. (My husband's recollection was that there was more commotion around his feet, the woman said he was just sitting there) The woman reaches down, gives him a treat to leash him and then like lightening, Tygo goes in and fiercely attacks the pup. My husband grabbed him and he said for a moment he would not let go of the top of the dogs neck. It lasted 6 or so seconds. I checked in with the aussie people and Tygo had punctured the pups ear.

I am the trainer and do all the work with Tygo. I was NOT there for the fight. My husband doesn't hold boundaries with Tygo well. Tygo is mildly reactive on leash in that he wants to get to dogs and he whimpers but he doesn't pull crazy, bark or lunge. If I see dogs coming with enough distance, I can grab treats and can get him in a heel and he will walk within 10 feet of yapping small dogs that act like they want to attack. An off leash shepherd came right at us today and Tygo just wanted to get to know him, he was on leash and I just tried to keep it slack for a couple of seconds before moving on. Anyway, just some examples.

I think I know what happened but wanted to see what you all thought by this description.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

It kinda sounds like something Hendrix once did… I had a swarm of my friend's dogs around me and Hendrix knew I had food in my pocket, so he went into guarding mode and started snarling and baring teeth. I had a grip on his collar (they were all off leash) and my friend pointed out he was guarding, so I let go of his collar, stepped back, and instantaneously he stopped. Maybe Tygo was doing something similar? Guarding your husband? The treat could have triggered it… Did your husband say whether or not Tygo saw the whole thing (or was facing them)?

[Karin]

Yeah... I think Tygo OWNS my husband. They way they do things is that Tygo is running the show, deciding when to play when to attack husband when to jump on him or sneak in his lap. I think he was resource guarding him. Tygo does not do this with me... the deciding how to run the show.

Is it fair to say that resource guarding is often involved with more serious and sudden confrontation (attacks) than say just dominance or social rank stuff? I think of the video about Cesar Mellan's worst bite... a lab with severe food guarding and I have seen videos of severe resource guarding that is always so intense and "go for the bite or make a big scene."

Husband is now committed to adding more structure. He will determine when play starts and when it ends, Tygo will no longer be allowed on the man-cave couch and he will do more leash and obedience work with him.

Any other thoughts.

[Stacy_R]

Without being there and seeing it, it's hard to tell. It could have been triggered by a myriad of things from him guarding (your husband or the food the other owner added) to him reacting to a body posture or pressure exhibited by the other dog (i.e. maybe the other dog demonstrated an aggressive posture/pressure because the owner added food to the equation and Tygo simply reacted to it).

[Christie M]

Dogs are no different than us. Highly stimulating environments create higher intensity of behaviors. The dog had just played hard, now another dog sat between your husband and him, and then a treat was produced. He is also at a REALLY hard age where he is trying to balance a level of natural defense that is developing and probably doesn't know what to do with all of that. Lastly, using an e-collar or prong to "correct" unwanted behavior, like barking & growling at other dogs on leash, does nothing to alleviate the stress that caused the behavior in the first place. It just cuts off the communication that your dog can convey when it is stressed.

Behaviors are simply a results of what the dog is thinking or experiencing. They are a result of that is in the dog's head. We should not be over consumed with just changing behavior. We have to change the mindset that created it to be effective long term.

Reactive dogs on leash are typically that way because there is no flight option in a fight or flight situation. Add to that, the addition of corrections to a dog that is demonstrating potentially aggressive behavior - we get conflict. In the dog's world, the conclusion can often be - other dogs close to my person results in extreme discomfort for me. So they react "out of no where" (remember, we have inhibited communication) and at aseemingly alarming intensity, because all your dog wants it to get that other dog away from its person before Tygo receives a correction.

So I do not believe he was guarding or protecting your husband. I think he was trying to alleviate a situation that could become uncomfortable for him, because he has many repetitions where it has.

I would handle it two fold. I would do all of the things you mentioned. Don't give Tygo less of anything - just give it all on your terms. He doesn't have to stay off of the couch - he just can't get up unless told to and must move when instructed. Everything is on your terms. Second, I would take a step back in his on leash interactions and work on identifying his threshold for dogs near by, and try to really make some POSITIVE associations. Look for minor signs of stress - stiffening, wall eye, lip licking, yawning...etc. Try to get him to realize that dogs in his proximity result in good things happening - not corrections. I am not anti-correction at all, and use a myriad of tools in my training (including prongs and e-collars). But I think there is so much room for conflict to occur, and we often cause more problems than we solve.

Lastly, here's an analogy. You know how when baby wild bunnies are really young, you can just walk up and pick them up? That is because they haven't had a natural level of defense (fear) develop yet. Many dogs (especially working dogs) end up going through a defensive stage in the 8-14 month age range. They start noticing things that have always been there, bark like fools and in general confuse their owners. They simply don't know what to do with the drive when it presents itself. Isolating them creates fear aggression and "nervy" dogs. Too much correction removes the communication and creates conflict and spontaneous aggressive outbursts. Specific socialization and positive (or atleast neutral) interaction to the scary stuff builds confidence.

Is it fair to say that resource guarding is often involved with more serious and sudden confrontation (attacks) than say just dominance or social rank stuff? I think of the video about Cesar Mellan's worst bite... a lab with severe food guarding and I have seen videos of severe resource guarding that is always so intense and "go for the bite or make a big scene."

I could write an essay on the catastrophe that was that situation. One - resource guarding starts out as a defensive behavior. It is fear aggression. They are scared you are going to remove the resource. It is NOT DOMINANCE. Meeting that behavior with aggression rarely (RARELY) fixes anything long term. Two - Defensive behavior can quickly become offensive. The dog learns to remove stress with aggression, and then shows aggressive behavior earlier and earlier in a specific situation. Owners usually have built a situation that is that dramatic. Three - I have never seen a more poorly set up situation for the dog and trainer to fail. Four - that whole recorded scenario was the result of over an hour of pushing that dog further and further into stress for drama. Damage was done to the dog for entertainment purposes. Five - THE DOG ENDED UP WINNING because it was so poorly set up. So now, a dog that was demonstrative, but had previously shown threshold, has learned that it can ignore its own inhibitions and will be successful by taking the next step and actually biting someone. Cesar Milan cause SO MUCH damage in that interaction. And all in the name of "dominance," when appropriate handling, technique and TRAINING would have actually helped.

And off of my soap box for a few.....

[Stacy_R]

And off of my soap box for a few.....

Hop back on any time!!! I think more people need to hear what you said.

I am so lucky to have hooked up with trainers here who have educated me on everything you discussed in your response. Their tagline is this: "We help dogs make better decisions." They have really shown me what to look for in posture, pressure, levels of excitement, etc, etc and how to train using technical behavior, relative space, conditioning, shaping, and the list goes on. Tyson is a much better dog and I am a much better owner because of them.

[Karin]

First, Christie, thanks so much for taking to your soap box. Very very appreciative of that. You posting is dense with lots of food for thought and I will do as you say.

I'm really trying to think about the use of ecollar creating stress around me and dogs. My husband has not used the ecollar at all. It has been me and the two things I use it for are to reinforce a recall, which his is really amazingly good now and I don't use the ecollar and to dissuade him from humping or over the back play with other dogs. I will very much be thinking about how I am creating stress now.

I also will take to heart the idea of really taking some steps backwards to really think and observe about how Tygo shows stress. I really wish I could find a good trainer that was close by. I think I will have to travel though.

And yes, Tygo turned 9 months and I can see an increase in his prey drive.

Thank you again, and please anyone else, I am reading these carefully and way way appreciate the time you take. If you folks lived closer I would take you all out for a beer.

[Dutchringgirl]

Christie that was excellent !!!! Its good to see you back here more often.

I love the " we help dogs make better decisions" That should be everyone's tagline, so great !