Crate Blues

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Hendrix has been going through phases of hating crates since we've had him. Always a refresher course of Crate Games solves the problem right away and we continue to play even after he settles. But recently he has decided he absolutely ABHORS the thing.

He will walk in it on his own, even sometimes lay in it, and he'll go in if I say "kennel". He always tries to rush out if he sees me walking up because he thinks we're playing crate games, so it's usually a run out and run back in move. Once he's in the crate he is fine if I'm in the room with him… if I leave the crying happens. Sometimes not right away, and sometimes he'll knock it off with a "quiet" command, but recently it has been balls to the walls screaming. I'm talking three year old hysterics worthy. Barking and howling and screeching. He does things I've never heard from him when he's in there. Pure panic and no commands can stop him.

I will take him out to the bathroom and put him right back, same result. If I'm in the room with him he's fine, no panic, no nothing. However, it can only be me; if my brother tries to sit with him there's still hysterics. We play crate games and I can keep him in there for up to 20 minutes without hysterics, with me moving in and out of the room, and up to 10 minutes of me being out of the room. But if we're not playing crate games, hysterics. I've tried Skype sessions and still nothing. And now he won't even play with things in his crate, such as chewing on a bully stick for the 2 minutes it takes me to go to the bathroom; if he is chewing it he will stop what he's doing and scream until I come back.

And apparently it's not just at home he won't settle in his crate. Even at doggy daycare they've mentioned he's doing the same thing. Again, he's fine until he realizes you've left then it's hysterics. I would say it's separation anxiety but when he's out of the crate and I leave the room, he's fine. No crying or howling, even if I'm in the bathroom he just ignores it, waits outside, or runs around the house. If I leave him in the car he's fine. If I leave him in a crate in the car (like at PSA practice) he's also fine. I'm not too sure how to approach this training wise, as it is obviously crate centered. I've also tried everything from switching him back to his plastic crate, to putting a blanket over his wire one… nothing seems to help. I'm starting to hate putting him the crate when we leave because it is such a drama thing but I'm not sure I trust him running around the house solo… or even in a room by himself. I am starting to explore the solo in a room idea slowly.

Any ideas on this? Our trainer is at a loss and I'm completely at a loss.

[LyonsFamily]

In another post, you mentioned he's having a recent energy spike. How much exercise and work is he getting?

Not being exercised enough, both mentally and physically might explain the problems. Since he's fine in the car and at PSA practice, he might associate that with getting to do work and not feel so frustrated. He also might view crate games as work because he's actively doing an obedience routine. Even if it's 20 minutes of down time and he appears the same as if he was just resting, he might still be on alert because he's still on cue.

When we first got Elli, it was constant screaming and pacing in the crate except at night. I took her to a 2 day nosework seminar a week or two later, fully planning on crating her in the car if she started screaming. We spent the first hour or so mingling with her on a leash and she met a lot of new people and then she had to be crated and brought out to work every 45 minutes to an hour as we worked through dogs. I tried her in the crating room with the other dogs and she was silent as could be and I realized learning a new sport that was physically and mentally exhausting got rid of all of her crazyiness.

Elli is a whole lot more dog than Odin is and she's nothing compared to dogs I've had in the past and she needs a lot more well rounded exercise. Playing fetch or frisbee doesn't do much for her. As soon as she catches her breath, she wants more. If my husband tries to sneak a workout in in the garage early in the morning before she's had a chance to be taken out and played with, she'll literally throw her body at the door to the garage non-stop until he comes in and then she'll immediately bring him a toy to play with. She's perfectly fine if she gets tired out first though.

There's only so far that obedience and proofing can take you if your dogs is bored mentally and physically.

[Stacy_R]

Playing fetch or frisbee doesn't do much for her. As soon as she catches her breath, she wants more.
There's only so far that obedience and proofing can take you if your dogs is bored mentally and physically.

This is Tyson. I have discovered that when we walk the greenway (3 miles roundtrip) I have to include work or he never wears out. And even when I do include obedience, after a 30 minute power-nap on the way home he is ready for more. I have learned that if I have time, I make a few stops along the way to dog-friendly places where I can take him in and work him more and that seems to help.

He also might view crate games as work because he's actively doing an obedience routine. Even if it's 20 minutes of down time and he appears the same as if he was just resting, he might still be on alert because he's still on cue.

I was thinking along the same lines...maybe with too much of the crate games he has started to view the crate as a place for times of interaction and excitement with you instead of a place for relaxation time. Have you tried just ignoring him when he starts acting like a drama queen? Don't say anything to him at all, don't look at him...nothing. It sounds like he has learned that the more commotion he makes, then he gets let out. He needs to learn that the opposite is true. Tyson struggled with this concept for many months. You might have to go back to basics and do some reconditioning. How does he do at night when you put him in there to sleep?

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Yup that is Hendrix. If we're not doing something every second he paces the house. We do 45 min-1 hour of exercise per day; walking with obedience (like how to not pull mom down the street, automatic sits, tracking, learning tunnel and go out commands, playing football, walking in a nature preserve [where we learn dealing with distractions while walking], and all kinds of things). He also gets 20- 30 minutes of OB in short 5 minute bursts, more if you count Crate Games (boosts it up to 30-50 minutes). Plus PSA practice twice a week.

I was wondering if this was a learned behavior - I've always been careful to let him out when he's quiet for a a few seconds, but I realized I cannot attest to anyone else, such as family. If I leave him he'll keep up the hysterics and it gets worse. I've sat there for two hours and he doesn't calm, just escalates. Now, here's the interesting thing, I'm pretty sure when we leave the house he doesn't do the hysterics for that long, if at all, since when we come back he's quiet. But if he knows people are in the house they start. At night there is nothing besides the grumbling and moaning of a puppy lamenting bed time or getting comfortable, which lasts for a minute or two then shuts off. And that's more of his vocalization than crying. He'll also run in there for meals and treats and kongs and sometimes stay without crying.

I'll go back to recondition and see if that helps too!

[Raven]

He always tries to rush out if he sees me walking up because he thinks we're playing crate games, so it's usually a run out and run back in move.

I keep getting stuck on this point: he does well in Crate Games, which teaches impulse control, yet he's rushing out when he sees you--when you're not playing. It sounds like there isn't a translation, and that what you're trying to teach using the games he sees as merely play...but when no play is attached to it...IDK, is he throwing a temper tantrum because you're not playing the game the "right" way (as he's come to think it should be played)?

Have you checked out Susan Garrett's website for possible answers? You might even be able to address this through her site.

[Stacy_R]

Does he know "place" or "base"? Meaning, does he have another space where he can go (or be put) in order to relax? Tyson has a carpet, affectionately known as "base." I use it for multiple purposes. This is where he can chew on bones, bully sticks, or anything else I don't want chewed on my carpet and it is safe, meaning that his personal space is protected. I also use it for times when he needs to de-escalate, recover, or relax. If I put him on base, he cannot come off until released (this is a good tool when training dogs who crowd the front door when people visit). He can also go lay there of his own accord with his personal space protected. I also have a "mobile base" (cut up yoga mat) that I will take with me to Starbucks, parks, or any dog friendly place that I want to use to brush up on and reinforce personal space. I will put it on the ground, put him on "base," and politely tell people who approach that he is working and cannot be petted at that time (yes, I get weird looks and eye-rolls, but hey...he's my dog, right??). Typically a down-stay is "invisible base" - no one is allowed to touch him while he is laying down (even if he's dying to be touched ), but using the yoga mat is a good refresher for him with tangible boundaries and a good visual for people. The only reason I am bringing this up is because if he doesn't know this concept already, it might be a way to help transition the same thought process to his crate.

[LyonsFamily]

We do 45 min-1 hour of exercise per day; walking with obedience (like how to not pull mom down the street, automatic sits, tracking, learning tunnel and go out commands, playing football, walking in a nature preserve [where we learn dealing with distractions while walking], and all kinds of things). He also gets 20- 30 minutes of OB in short 5 minute bursts, more if you count Crate Games (boosts it up to 30-50 minutes). Plus PSA practice twice a week.

Do any of those things truly exhaust him? Walking hasn't really done much for my dogs mentally, even with some obedience thrown in. I think swimming is our best option for tiring out the dogs. They can keep going while we're there, but coming home after 45 minutes of swimming and retrieving in the water and the dogs are ready for a good nap. I would focus on one day doing a couple hours worth of exercises, especially anything that gets him real tired, and then trying to work on the crate after.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Walking in general won't unless it's a new environment or we're doing something else, like tracking. Or if we have a heat wave and it's hot. And I don't blame him - I'm exhausted too!

He does know place (all four paws on a mat) but he doesn't have the attention for long downs ("omg mom I just GOT to go bark at that invisible person! Wait, what was I supposed to do?"). I will give him a toy or something to chew on it and he'll go there willingly during the day, and will bring things he likes onto his "place". We're working with him on longer "place" commands.

I've started upping his training and started limiting his time in the crate. He's now in the crate a bare minimum and if we're resting he has a choice of resting with me, in his crate with the door open, or on his place, all depending on where I am. I've also started breaking down the crate games into smaller steps played randomly throughout the day in case he has learned to behave for a sequence of events. Also if he has to go into the crate I'll do some OB or continue working on a trick or skill (rear end awareness, jumping, recalls, find it, etc) about 10-20 minutes before.

Some days this seems to be the trick and other days he gives me the puppy version of the middle finger; a tail whack to the face as he rushes out from the crate. I've also realized he INSISTS on being let out upon our arrival home, so I'm working with him on just because we're home doesn't mean he needs to be out. He seems to be slowly accepting this fact and I'm wondering if this whole hating the crate isn't because he thinks when we're home he's supposed to be out. The crate games would be different because he knows it's a game and has an end. Yet when we come back or he gets crated at home while I'm there, not playing a game, the "end" of me arriving home has been reached yet he's still inside the crate, therefore not ending the game as it should be.

[Stacy_R]

Some days this seems to be the trick and other days he gives me the puppy version of the middle finger; a tail whack to the face as he rushes out from the crate. I've also realized he INSISTS on being let out upon our arrival home, so I'm working with him on just because we're home doesn't mean he needs to be out. He seems to be slowly accepting this fact and I'm wondering if this whole hating the crate isn't because he thinks when we're home he's supposed to be out. The crate games would be different because he knows it's a game and has an end. Yet when we come back or he gets crated at home while I'm there, not playing a game, the "end" of me arriving home has been reached yet he's still inside the crate, therefore not ending the game as it should be.

You may have nailed it. Tyson struggled with this. Extending place time will help (even though he's not in his crate, he still has to maintain his composure while on his place). Also, when I arrive home none of the dogs get let out if they are overly excited (whining, pawing, etc). And if they start that behavior when I approach to let them out, I walk away. Hendrix will understand very quickly that he can't come out unless he's quiet (when Tyson is having a bad day, I get a "harumph!!!" with a low moan, LOL).