Losing it.

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Smanders
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Sarah, my puppy is named Hobbes. He is 5 months old and full of piss and vinegar. Currently training in obedience and just starting with tracking. This is my first puppy so I am always looking for advice!

Losing it.

Post by Smanders »

Here is a question for all you experienced Dog owners. Has your dog ever lost it for a couple seconds, like completely unresponsive ?


Here is the situation that came up and I think I handled it poorly, and would love some feedback as to what you guys would do in a similar situation.

I was at my inlaws house watching their beautiful older German shepherd cross Monty for them while they are in Cuba. He is about 13 or 14 years old (prob 120 lbs) and doesn't put up with any shit from Hobbes atall. Like none, which is fine. Hobbes can be a little aggressive about wanting to play and he gets put in his place really fast and I think that is probably good for him to experience and I let them work it out, I step in if I think Hobbes is being too much like when he is prancing around Monty barking like crazy and annoying everyone within hearing distance, but I think they have each other worked out and usually do pretty good together.

Anyways so things were going pretty good until Hobbes figured out that there were cats in the house. Obviously I had on the leash and wasn't letting him chase the cats. At one point I brought the cats to another room so I could do stuff without leading Hobbes around but I guess one of them got out and came back into the room without me knowing and Hobbes of course found it, chased it up on the counter and proceeded to bark at it like a maniac.

Monty, who is fond of the cats ( I guess) instantly reacted to Hobbes barking in that tone and went over and got super upset with him and tried to bite him, and Hobbes went in crazy defence mode and went at Monty. I'll state here no dogs got hurt, but Hobbes wouldn't get out of fight mode and he bit me while I was seperating the two of them. Monty is really good about stopping when you yell at him, Hobbes not so much. It was a hard bite, no blood or marks but probably only because I was wearing a sweater.He clearly knew that was biting me and not Monty but just wanted to get back at him or something.He was making crazy noises that I have never heard before. Very hyped up and very unusual.What should I have done in this situation and what should I do afterwards so that he knows its unacceptable? I put him outside on the deck(enclosed area) for 45 min or so until everyone was calm and then just let him back in and things went fine again.

Usually when he is doing something bad I can correct him repeatedly when the offence is occurring and then he understands that he gets in shit when he is jumping up or barking at the dog down the street or whatever. This has never happened before and hopefully not again but what would you do in a one time situation like that so your dog knows that they are in deep poo poo. My last Dutch shepherd could tell instantly from my tone when he was in shit and felt bad and would go hide in shame. Hobbes doesn't seem to care about the tone of voice yet.

I feel like I have been a bad dog parent or something. Clearly I am missing something in training, not sure what but would love any advice. It was very unusual behaviour for him, and something that I really haven't seen before. Is this a sign that I am failing?
-Sarah & Hobbes-
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Dutchringgirl »

How old is Hobbs? he is young if I remember correctly? I dont think you did anything wrong. you thought you had the situation under control, but the cats decided to sneak out anyway. If this is the first time seeing the cats, then I can understand why he did what he did. He didnt mean to bit you but from what you said, you probably just got in the way and he was so intent on Monty he just went to bite him and got you instead. This is why separating two dogs can be dangerous. My instinct, when my girls go at it, which is never, Ill grab Thalie's neck because I trust her more, and usually when I yell "KNOCK IT OFF" they know to stop or else.

Maybe you could have grabbed Hobb's leash and pulled him away? I dont know if Monty would keep after him?

Someone else may have other ideas, but to me, it was just animals being animals, and you prepared but the cats just decided to do what they wanted.

Crap happnes to all of us. You are not failing, Dont be so hard on yourself. It is a learning experience for all of us.
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Raven »

Not having been there to witness Hobbes, but his state, as you described it, sounds like reflex-in-drive. At least, that's my interpretation of your description. If so, he was only aware of the object(s) of his focus, not you. He was overly stimulated, and probably over-threshold, and nailed whatever distracted him/touched him/got close enough to him. And--being young--he is still trying to figure out things, especially new situations, without the benefit of much similar experiences behind him.

Glad you weren't hurt.
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Dutchringgirl »

Ive seen this happen alot in working the dogs too. Once at a trial, the handler sent the dog to get the decoy, and the dog swung around to get the decoy and bit the handler instead.
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Sarah, my puppy is named Hobbes. He is 5 months old and full of piss and vinegar. Currently training in obedience and just starting with tracking. This is my first puppy so I am always looking for advice!

Re: Losing it.

Post by Smanders »

It happened so fast that really I don't even remember thinking about jumping in, I just did. Grabbing the leash probably would have been a smarter thing to do!!

Hobbes is almost 8 months so still very young. I guess your right it does boil down to animals just being animals and he hasn't really ever had an experience quiet like this before, so maybe if it happens again we will both know what to do.

What do the handlers do when their dogs go after them instead of the decoy ?
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Dutchringgirl »

Smanders wrote:
What do the handlers do when their dogs go after them instead of the decoy ?
Cry :binkybaby:
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Tell us about yourself: I have been adopted by a Dutch Shepherd named Hauss. He was brought into a family with 2 dogs and a cat almost 4 years ago. He is a very loving dog towards those he knows. I know very little about the breed and wish to lean how to train some bad habits out of him. I'm coming here in hopes of finding help.

Re: Losing it.

Post by Jussume »

I would love any help with this question as well. I have Hauss who is a male and will be 4 years old in October. I already had 2 older dogs (Australian Cattle dog and Schipperke, both over 10 years old), I was not looking for any more animals, however my son decided to buy him from a breeder in Oklahoma (we live in Massachusetts) without my permission or knowledge. Hauss is a wonderful loving dog, he's adopted me as his master and I love him very much and have grown attached to him but when he goes off the wall like this (it's usually with my Aussie who is 15) there is no getting him to stop short of ripping him away. I usually get behind Hauss, grab his neck and collar and pull him off while demanding he release my dog. He still refuses to let up and I have had to now resort to keeping my Aussie in a very large crate which takes up most of my home and time switching them back and forth to let each one into the fenced dog area at my home. He hurt Charlie (the Aussie) pretty bad the last time. I was not home, my ex-husband was there and is afraid of Hauss. I also do not trust him with strangers, in my home mostly. He does not growl or show his teeth, he barks aggressively. I never heard of this breed until Hauss came to me and have no idea how to train this behavior out of him. My son has pretty much left him to me and I love him very much, could never consider giving him up. It would kill me to surrender him as they would just put him down because the only two people who seem to be able to handle him is myself and my son. If we walk in public or on trails, he is usually tolerant of people and other animals, unless one stares at him. And I do worry about unleashed animals as well. His vet states there are some clubs in the area that would be of assistance but are very expensive.
I have had German Shepherds and trained them without trouble but none had the aggression a Dutch has.
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Dutchringgirl »

Hi Jussume,

How long have you had Hauss? How is his obedience? I would keep him on a leash at all times and keep him with you. Since he is bonded to you and your hubby is afraid of him, can Hauss stay in a crate while you are not home? Do you know what the trigger is between your Aussi and Hauss? feeding time, you etc. Have you called the breeder and asked him questions about Hauss? Is he muzzle trained? What kind of collar is on him now? Do you do any work/ exercise with him?
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Raven »

Though we're outwardly talking about DA, we're talking about different situations, too. In the original post, Hobbes was visiting, is young and learning, etc. while Hauss has been around his housemate dogs for four years. (That's how I read Jussume's post: they got Hauss as a pup and for four years this battle has been going on. Yes?)
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Dutchringgirl »

Four years??? Spend the money on a trainer. If it has been four years you do not want aggressiveness to lead to a bite.
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Tell us about yourself: I have been adopted by a Dutch Shepherd named Hauss. He was brought into a family with 2 dogs and a cat almost 4 years ago. He is a very loving dog towards those he knows. I know very little about the breed and wish to lean how to train some bad habits out of him. I'm coming here in hopes of finding help.

Re: Losing it.

Post by Jussume »

Ok let me see if I can clarify. Hauss is perfectly fine most of the time, he very much lacks exercise and I wish I could provide it as much as he needs or even fence in the remainder of my half acre of land for him. When he was a pup, he was very lovable toward my Aussie, it was like his mother figure. I don't know exactly what triggers him. For most part it seems he gets upset when the dog does not listen to him or me. My dogs are just everyday house pets, no formal training and follow me around. I know when Hauss gets excited he seems to not know what to do with the pent up energy and that is one time he will go after my dog. He is very obedient with the exception of when he goes into attack mode. I do my best to get him out and exercise him, am trying to find a low cost neuter which being weary of strangers is difficult to find.

There are no trainers in my area they have a clue about the breed as there are not many in Massachusetts. His vet had told me (after the fact) not to bring him to any around here even those that claim they train police dogs as they have no clue about the breed. The two or three dutch shepherds we do have on police force came here trained. I also work 3 jobs trying to get out from under the bills divorce has left me with and don't have thousands of dollars to spend on training. I was under the impression that the local clubs could help teach me until i felt safe bringing Hauss but now the vet tells me they are also very expensive. Again I would never allow anyone to put this dog down and would like to better his life. He is not vicious and is very loving. I was only reaching out for training advice not judgment. I did not ask for this breed but I will not harm any animal for being an animal, it's not his fault it's my son's. That being said, the dog should not suffer and it's not helping to just push blame around.

This was a suggestion to try and if people here have no resources or ideas I thank you and will be on my way.
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix »

Jussume, your attempt to learn more to help Hauss is admirable and wonderful. We all want what's best for our fur kids. I think a simple lack of information has lead to some crossed lines, which happens a lot. It's very hard to try to diagnosis aggression without knowing or seeing the dogs, but there is lots of advice on the forum for people to try. After reading your second post with more info, I can suggest some advice of my own. It sounds like your vet may also be talking out of his rear a bit. While it is true you must be weary of anyone claiming to train police/protection dogs, especially if found off Craigslist (a friend has a story about that), this does not necessarily extend to knowing a breed specifically. Understanding the dog is first, knowing breed habits or personality trends is second. One of our trainers works with GSDs and Mals but has never worked with a DS and we haven't had a problem. She also is very well versed in aggression - as often times it's not specifically the breed of the dog causing aggression it's the personality of the dog reacting causing the aggression. She just knows smart, shepherd type dogs, and also working dogs. So if I were looking for a trainer or club, I'd want a club that trains in what I want to do (obedience, tracking, protection work, sports, agility, etc), see what type of dogs they have in the club and what breeds they've worked with, and then if they have experience with aggression and or multi-dog households.

As for the clubs, I wouldn't necessarily believe what your vet says. Our PSA club is basically 20$ a month. Now the extra equipment I buy to continue to participate in the sport can get expensive, yes, but I also know around me there are obedience clubs that only charge for classes - maybe 50$ to 80$ for six weeks - which is cheaper than the other group classes. So I would do a quick google search and reach out to a few clubs you like best and ask. Some only will take people with room, some have open enrollment, and others may be able to refer you to a great trainer or another club. It could be your vet is right and they are all expensive, but I would want to know for myself what "expensive" means. But those are just my opinions.

As for Hauss, I would watch him carefully and see if you can't figure out his triggers. Try keeping a journal or a notepad - jolting down the incident that led up to the fight - and it can help you better identify what exactly triggers his aggression. I know dog fights can be scary to watch. My dog will get into it with an older dog, his 8 year old GSD friend, and she'll let him try to wallop her before she turns around and kicks his butt. He's still young so he's learning boundaries but he takes the discipline she gives him in stride. It looks and certainly sounds scary but it never gets out of hand. It could be Hauss is trying to assert dominance over her, especially if he's offended she's not following your orders, as you've noticed. You could call it bullying or taking over the enforcer role in the pack, if you wish. My dog and his same older GSD friend will "boss" each other around and if one of them starts being a jerk, we step in and tell them to knock it off. Is that what's happening? Hard to say. But I would certainly be interested in seeing what the triggers and social dynamics between Hauss and the Aussie are.

Also, reinforcing your role within your pack could help. This doesn't mean you have to kick all the dog's butts or eat first to be alpha or anything. Simple obedience training goes a long way, asking for dogs to sit before getting a treat or feed or going outside, simple things can make a big difference. I can always tell with my guy when I haven't been doing a whole lot of obedience with him for a while. He gets belligerent. "No" doesn't mean "no" suddenly. Again, he's a puppy, but he totally has the teenage rebellion issue. I solve it by specifically working with him on obedience a bit more for a few days and we go back to normal. And you don't have to work an hour on obedience - five to fifteen minutes broken into segments can make a big difference, especially if you incorporate it in a fun way like playing.

I would back up what others have said about contacting the breeder if you know where your son got him from. Breeders will know their dogs, their lines, and the breed in general and may be able to help you.

I know you said you could never give him up, and I'm certainly not suggesting that, but I thought I would simply give you another resource that may be able to help you out with knowing some good trainers. The NADSR (National association of dutch shepherd rescue) is a fantastic organization that fosters and adopts out DS. Since they are national, they may be able to recommend a trainer or a resource for you. Just a thought. Good luck!
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Raven »

NADSR = North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue.

Jussume, our purpose is to help, as much as anyone can via the internet. And while things can easily get misinterpreted, especially over the internet, and double-especially if someone doesn't know someone well on a forum, the people here helping catch more flack than anyone. :eek:

I appreciate how committed you are to Hauss and for reaching out. Others would have given up (or worse) a looooooooong time ago. Have you had any time to read through some threads (Behavior/Education/Whatever) regarding aggression? Each case is likely different, but some comments in threads may find yourself saying, "Hmmmm...that sounds familiar" or "I never thought about that."

I'm not sure how to re-shape/re-condition/condition Hauss (any dog) without structured allotments of time being dedicated toward certain goals. These guys are wicked smart, so they learn quickly; reliability comes through conditioning...and if you can spare a few minutes here and there through the day, while they're not big chunks of time, they can prove valuable--with consistency. Dogs do better, anyway, with small sessions. (As Kira suggested.)
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Re: Losing it.

Post by johninny »

Kira had good advice. and Raven's suggestion of exploring those threads for behavior that seems relevant might lead to an ah ha moment. it does sound though like your time is very, very limited for the time-being. and i am sure Mr. H would himself much prefer that any extra dog time you can spare be lavished directly on him.

i am not strong [ knowledge-wise ] on direct training or behavior-modification advise, but whatever you choose to do, good communication always helps.
if you have not already, apply names to everything for him, so you can praise certain behavior you like [ good sit, good quiet] and forbid other behaviors [ no biting, no attack, or whatever]. DSs can learn an immense amount of language. then use that language skill to provide constant/frequent feedback even when nothing is going on. it will improve his confidence [ that he is (or is NOT ) doing the right thing ] and improve his sense that he is solidly part of your life and the family's. and the fact that he is such a loving dog, as you say, probably means that he is especially anxious to please you and do the right thing - AND to communicate with you.; he just needs strong guidance and teaching him language is a great way to facilitate that [ and something that you can do in the normal course of your day - just be consistent/clear in your choice of words or terms and don't worry about others thinking you are crazy for talking to the dog so much ].

do you happen to be located in the north middle of MA? a dog friend of mine has great respect for a dog behaviorist near Keene, NH [ not sure which village ], but if you were near, he might be a good choice if you did want assessment and advice from a professional; if you are near there, i would be glad to supply his phone # so you could call and see if you could work out something with absolutely minimal financial pain; sometimes good behaviorists are happy to meet a dog briefly and recommend a fix all for free. of course, you would need to fully describe as much as you can about your dog and suspected triggers. i think this guy even specializes in shepherds but i may not remember that correctly.
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Tell us about yourself: I have been adopted by a Dutch Shepherd named Hauss. He was brought into a family with 2 dogs and a cat almost 4 years ago. He is a very loving dog towards those he knows. I know very little about the breed and wish to lean how to train some bad habits out of him. I'm coming here in hopes of finding help.

Re: Losing it.

Post by Jussume »

Owned-by-Hendrix, Thank you for your advice and yes his triggers seem related to bullying but the problem is his fighting does not stop if the Aussie cowers and now that he has hurt him I can’t trust him near the dog. I can stop him if I catch him before he goes into attack mode but once he starts I can’t distract him or get him to let up short of ripping him off. I was not home when this latest attack went off, my ex-husband still lives here and my assumption is the lawyer I type for brought by some work and as Hauss was locked in the house with the other dogs, he turned his anxiety toward Charlie (Aussie). I would always make sure Charlie was not available to him when I know someone will be coming to my door. My ex does not use his brain ever it seems. Because my son pulled him out of social situations when he became aggressive, I’m not sure if his barking is him mimicking my ankle biter (Schipperke) or he would bite. He is not bearing teeth or looking like a vicious dog, mostly barking. I know when people stare at him he does get edgy and barks in an aggressive manner. I have been told this is a normal reaction from the breed, a challenge. I tried a trainer when he was a pup (9 months) and his aggression first started. This so called police dog trainer had us bring him into a garage converted to training area which made him very anxious having no way to escape and was told me it was a bad gene line we should put him down and never trust him. And no I did not find this police dog trainer on CL. Hauss feels most comfortable and safe in his own environment. Walking in the woods is his favorite but I do worry about some of these irresponsible dog owners that do not keep theirs on a leash. My son was taking him at one point walking but not lately. I have googled clubs/trainers. Sadly in Massachusetts nothing comes up which is how I found this forum, it was recommended by the Rescue you suggested. I emailed them and they told me there is nothing they are aware of in my area. I only want obedience training get a nice family dog, be able to take him out in public and not worry, or take someone in car or for a walk with me. I had a client at the law firm I work for who told me she tries to train doomed, aggressive German shepherds but I lost her number and cannot remember her name. I’m not sure if she would be affordable or not but most trainers want $3,000-$5,000 to train him.
As Raven mentioned consistency is helpful and I have noticed differences in him when things are consistent. However, as I mentioned I have a brain dead ex-husband that is worse to train then Hauss and both me and my son have complained about the things he does and allows Hauss to do (i.e. letting him eat off his plate, feeding him from his plate while he is eating, rough housing with him) to no end. Unfortunately Massachusetts has become a horrible state for people who have pets. I co-own this house which is why we are both still in it. I am trying to find a place to take these animals where I will be the only “boss” around.

Johninny, I do my best to keep my stuff consistent with him and reprimand anyone who allows different. I also have always had to keep my dogs out of the bedroom area but Hauss and the cat are allowed to enter. I am south of Worcester on the Rhode Island border but Keene I believe is about an hour and half from me. So far all I have seen is trainers in California. I always talk to him, when we are walking, or he is laying next to me on my bed as I am typing, even as I’m doing things around the house. And every time he does something good (like not go after the cat when I have to lock him in room to let Charlie out, I say good boy pat him or give him treat. I try to always remember to acknowledge good behavior and express non acceptable behavior as I happens.

Thanks all, I will try to get through some more of the threads and continue to work out his issues. I just feel bad for him as I know he is not close to his potential but is now my baby.
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Dutchringgirl »

He told you to put him down !!!!!!!!!! I would have walked out right then and there !!!
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Dutchringgirl »

I used to work with a Ring sport trainer in the Boston area. Let me see if I can find him, His name is John and he had a DS "Turbo" A huge DS that was really cool.
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Dutchringgirl »

I coulnt find John, but I found this site,

http://www.trouwehond.com/

I dont know them but check them out?
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Re: Losing it.

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix »

Sharon - HAH I'm sooo dyslexic recently. My brain has been putting all sorts of things together for acronyms. I won't even tell you what I told someone SAR stood for! (face palm)

Jussume, if it is bullying then definitely taking control of the situation will help. I understand living with some people who don't get it and as a result usually Hendrix only listens to me, but he knows I'm MOM and am equally fun, give out lots of pets and praise and treats, and also set the boundaries and will enforce when needed. It's building a relationship of respect, really. When my boy was much younger, I had to pin him a few times when bullying a much younger puppy. He got the message early on that I would discipline him, never harshly or unfairly or without ample warnings, and began to respect the boundaries I set. Of course as he reached his teens years that went out the door real fast. lol!

I'll explain a technique a trainer in our club has us use for dog aggressive dogs. I'm not saying it for sure will work as it depends on Hauss's temperament, timing, and making sure he understands boundaries. Most dogs that use this method are not handler aggressive. I personally used the method sparingly and with additional time working on positive association, only using the method when absolutely necessary. For it to properly work, having control of both dogs is a must. When I was taught it, the other dog we used as the "inciting" dog was in a down stay and was reliable to stay there without worry. For you, making sure you could put the other dog in a down stay or command into a position without breaking and interfering is a must. The method uses a prong, fitted loosely to the dogs neck and a leash attached to the dead and live hook. The second the dog begins to get aggressive with another dog, and we're sure the aggression is aimed at that dog, you lift the dog up with the leash and say, "no" very firmly. Hold him there (feet do not have to be far off the ground) until the dog pauses then slowly put down, praising and treating heavily. I worked a LOT with my guy on positive association first (playing a game called "where is" where I ask "Where is the dog" from a bit aways, once he looks at the dog I praise him immediately with treats, slowly working closer and closer to the dog) and have only used the technique with the prong twice on him when he went so far over I couldn't control him. It only took the twice on him and he knows when he starts to get aggressive for the sake of bullying and I tell him no, he'll stop. But he also knows "no" is the ultimate "not gonna happen EVER" correction, so 70% of the time I don't have to use anything else but no. I still work on positive association and he can now control himself when he tries to bully so the use of my voice is enough correction for him. I wouldn't recommend starting out using this technique with Hauss perhaps until you work a bit more on obedience training with him or you know he'll respect something you say because if you use this method without this sort of "ground work" it may seem unfair to him and he could lash out or decide to stop listening to you. DS hate unfairness, which is why compulsion based obedience methods seem not to work so well on them, in my opinion.

Here's a site the association of animal behaviorists that may also have someone in your area: https://iaabc.org
I used to live in Boston so I am vaguely familiar with Worcester. I also have a friend who volunteers in the Manchester animal shelter so I'll ask her if she knows any good trainers near the border (her husband used to work in Boston). It is hard to live on the east coast if you're trying to rent a place with pets - I certainly understand!

Also, keep in mind, depending on the breeding Hauss came from, these are dogs bred for protection. The degrees of this varies with each dog and breeding but at heart they are smart and capable protectors. My guy is aloof to strangers now, social to dogs, and he really hates strangers coming up to pet him. He'll allow a brief interaction if he's seen the person multiple times and they have ignored him, or, oddly, if he's off leash and people aren't bothering him, he'll walk up for pets and then run off to play some more.

And I would have seriously hit that trainer that said to put him down. History, training, and a dog's attitude are the key elements to molding a dog, to either be polite or aggressive in my opinion. Hope some of this helps!
Kay, H, and The SO
(Pepper's Look-A-Like)
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johninny
Working Dog
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:22 am
Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
Location: NH/hamptons/nyc

Re: Losing it.

Post by johninny »

Jussume, reading Kira's post about use of the prong gave me an idea that maybe would work for you in different situations - like out walking with Hauss or to call him off when going after the Aussie. but i would appreciate if others would chime in if there is a downside to this that i do not see.

i had/have 3 DS puppies and getting firm recall and keeping them from harassing passersby at our fence was a problem, so i bought e-collars for them. they already knew what i wanted; the e-collars used very sparingly cemented the good behavior i wanted.

but for one dog it has also come in handy for controlling his occasional dog aggression toward dogs outside the family. using the collar is no longer necessary if the other dog does not come into close quarters with him [ mine is usually off leash so his good behavior in this regard is especially important and absolutely essential ]; after some use mine knows he is to ignore other dogs. but if close-up interaction cannot be helped, the e-collar continues to be invaluable when i take him on public walks off leash [ especially if all 3 dogs are on the walk as they often are] and we run into other dogs that get up close and personal. then he really tries to behave [ with plenty of verbal direction and encouragement from me!], but if the close-quarters encounter goes on too long or is too intense or chaotic, i know he will loose it at least once without a gentle [sometimes not SO gentle is needed] reminder from the collar when i see he is about to throw caution to the wind.

in your circumstance, i would train with this in pretty much the same way Kira suggested, using lots of positive reinforcement for good behavior [ i.e., if you're out on a trail walk, point out a strange dog and have treats to distract him and to reward him for calm acceptance that a dog is in the area. after proper warning [ trained to the point that he knows what is expected of him ] you can use a mild collar shock to interrupt the unwanted behavior ].

if you kept the collar on him when around the Aussie, you might be able to interrupt his artack mode with a stronger pulse when verbal commands do not work.

there are a couple discussions in the last year and a half of e-collars. the first was more about how to use [ which inspired me to get the collars ] in which ChristieM and LyonsFamily [Stephanie] had excellent guidance as to use of e-collars which one should read before using [ do not use as punishment is just basic, but then using it correctly to insure more damage is not done ]. i think that first discussion was in ''Whatever'' but maybe in ''behavior''. not sure of title topic, but a ''search'' ''e-collar might get you there.

there is a follow-up discussion in ''product review/e-collar'' initiated by me. in the first, Stephanie had recommended dogtra brand [ i needed a multi dog remote ] but by the time i got them, Stephanie had come upon a better choice for 1 dog at least [ more economical and easier to use ]. unfortunately, all this requires an investment in the collar, but after reading everyone's opinions on e-collars from past posts you may think that Hauss might respond to this and that it would be worth it - especially versus other expenditures. and you could use it flexibly around the house or go for those walks that you want once he responds.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
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