aggression????

[karenz]

I wanted to get some opinions on a new behavior that Xander has started. He has started curling his lip and showing his teeth at me if I try to do something to him that he doesn't like. For example cleaning his ears which I understand isn't pleasant. But I'm concerned about this behavior. He doesn't growl but he has snapped a couple times. Not a full major snap that results in a bite but a sort of nip. I don't know why he started this all of a sudden but I certainly don't want it to progress into an aggression problem. Can anyone give an opinion on the reason for this all of a sudden and aNY suggestions on correcting it? Thanks

[johninny]

what has been your response to each occurrence so far - and any reaction of his to any response of yours?

edit - besides ear cleaning, what else?

[karenz]

The only response I have had is "no" and he stops until I reach back for his ear to try again. Anytime he behaves when I'm cleaning ears he gets lots of praises. The other times he has done it was when I was trying to look at his foot because I thought he had hurt it and when I was brushing him and hit a tangle in his butt hair. It seams to be a pain and/or fear response. I say fear because he does this to the vet as well. He has been doing that for awhile. But only did it to me recently. I'm kind of lost on a correction because he responds badly to physical corrections. I learned this quickly when he was younger. So a pop on the snout or butt escalates the situation. Plus I understand that the things I do to cause the reaction are no fun and painful or uncomfortable for him so is it really his fault that he is doing it. I feel like it is a natural response. If someone yanked my hair I'd probably do the same thing.

[Stacy_R]

Anytime he behaves when I'm cleaning ears he gets lots of praises.

Many times "lots of praises" can actually make it worse by amping up the situation with your vocalization, i.e. it can increase the dog's excitement level and counter-act what you are trying to accomplish.

my :
Take him to the vet and get him checked out...many times if a dog is sore (or has an ear infection starting) they will nip.

As far as corrections go...again, my :
1. Leash him up and use a leash/collar correction, or
2. Give him something super yummy to occupy his attention while you clean his ears, or
3. Consult a behaviorist asap so it doesn't get worse.

My trainers of choice are located in Concord, NC. They are amazing - I have seen them do totally amazing things with dogs. Let me know if you want their info.

[karenz]

So should I not praise him at all when I am cleaning ears and brushing him or give some praise but not overly excited praises? I don't see any signs of ear infection. I have to clean his ears because part of our yard is dusty and they get dirty when he runs around out there and kicks up dust. I hope it doesn't get to the point I need a trainer or behaviorist but I will keep you in mind if it comes to that. I may have made it out to be more severe than it is. He will curl his snout up and show his front teeth. A couple times he nipped at my hand but never actually tried to bite or even actually put teeth on me. And as soon as I give a stern NO he stops and usually starts liking my hand as if to say sorry mom. Then we start the process over. I'm not sure it is true aggression or if it is just an instinct reaction because it hurt, such as when I snagged the tangle in his butt hair. Either way I don't want him to think it is ok to do it and I want to make sure I'm handling it correctly so I don't re enforce the behavior or in some strange way without realizing it end up rewarding the behavior. I will definitely try the leash correction next time I clean his ears. Thanks for your input.

[Stacy_R]

So should I not praise him at all when I am cleaning ears and brushing him or give some praise but not overly excited praises?

I wouldn't. I would praise when I'm done. He obviously is uncomfortable (possibly anxious?) with having his ears messed with and vocalizing while you are doing it won't help. Think of it like this: if you have a dog who is afraid of thunder, you don't coddle and tell him "oh, it's okay, it's okay" because that just increases stress...all that vocalizing. You may need to start at zero...like all the way back to zero...and desensitize him and shape the behavior that you want. Pet his ears - treat...work up to rub...work up to clean... "Oh, sweet! Mom's going to clean my ears...I get a cookie!" I love shaping because it's done with zero words.

I may have made it out to be more severe than it is. He will curl his snout up and show his front teeth. A couple times he nipped at my hand but never actually tried to bite or even actually put teeth on me.

A curled lip and showing teeth is not okay. Ever. It can (and usually does) escalate.

[karenz]

Thanks Stacy. I like the idea of just starting from scratch. That may be the best way. He will just have dirty ears for a little while. Lol. And I was afraid of it escalating. It's not a major problem now, it's just developing, like a few days ago. Best to fix it early.

[karenz]

Also, it concerns me that at a year old this developed. I'm worried it was something I did not even realizing what I was doing. I don't think I did anything but these guys are so smart he could have picked up on something that I didn't realize I was doing. Any ideas on what I could've done or why this started out of the blue. Maybe to much ruff play with him? I don't get real ruff with him but we do mess around with a little ruff play. He has fun and he always stops when I tell him to and he seems to know what is to ruff and never takes it over the limit.

[Mobil]

Is hitting a dog for correction ever recommended? I didn't think people used those kinds of methods any more, as I was taught that could have bad results and exacerbate aggressive behavior. Am I mistaken?

[Stacy_R]

Also, it concerns me that at a year old this developed. I'm worried it was something I did not even realizing what I was doing. I don't think I did anything but these guys are so smart he could have picked up on something that I didn't realize I was doing. Any ideas on what I could've done or why this started out of the blue. Maybe to much ruff play with him? I don't get real ruff with him but we do mess around with a little ruff play. He has fun and he always stops when I tell him to and he seems to know what is to ruff and never takes it over the limit.

Many dogs can't handle rough-housing...it amps them up and blurs lines. Lines get blurred because when dogs rough-house, they use teeth...and their teeth should never touch your skin (or an extension of your skin, i.e. clothes). I would stop the rough-housing (there are many ways to drain energy that don't involve wrestling) and go all the way back...start shaping good behavior.

[Dutchringgirl]

Roughhousingnis very subjective, if you want to do it, make sure they have superb "outs " and your behavior and commands are crystal clear. I play hard with Thalie a lot but she has had tons of training and I am clear on what is allowed and not. She will grab my arm but immediately let go. If your dog has any aggression then I would never do that.

When you want to give tons of praise, wait until you are done doing what you are doing, not during. If they need breaks, then take breaks, and praise, then start again.

[Raven]

Is hitting a dog for correction ever recommended?

What? Hitting? That's not training. Just signs of a poor handler. Start smacking around a DS and see what happens.

Karenz,

How often are you cleaning his ears? Could they have become sore or sensitive and he's responding to pain? Like someone else said, might want a vet to take a peek and see if there's something that's causing pain.

With rough-housing, I get on the husband when it gets borderline or goes over the border (where the husband suddenly says Hey!). What else is Thor to do when some big guy is sending the message that it's TIME TO RUMBLE?

When Thor and I rough-house, he knows the level at which it's supposed to stay...and if he feels like kicking it up a notch, he backs off.

And this is an example where consistency and everyone in the house being on the same page and enforcing the same rules is important.

Far easier training dogs than husbands. Stacy explained it well: it can be easy for the lines to blur.

I don't even tug with dogs until they know the score.

[Stacy_R]

Is hitting a dog for correction ever recommended?

What? Hitting? That's not training. Just signs of a poor handler.

Agreed.

Stacy explained it well: it can be easy for the lines to blur.

Thanks, Sharon.

I don't even tug with dogs until they know the score.

And you get a big "AMEN!!!" from me on that...

Karenz - the golden rule in all of this is "know thy dog." Know what your dog can handle and what he can't...they all have their own distinct personalities. That being said, I have to say that overall I am NOT a fan of roughhousing because dogs are animals and they will inevitably revert to instinct over behavior when their excitement threshold maxes out (key words here being "maxes out" - you have to be really in-tune with your dog and his/her body language to see where that line is). I would rather have my dogs exert their energy *with* me in some way as to drain it rather than *at* me by wrestling/roughhousing (and possibly amping them up a notch with excitement and leading toward an unfavorable ending to the session), but that's just me.

[johninny]

i keep thinking about the ear-cleaning. if the aggressive tone first manifested itself during ear-cleaning, then there is some chance that all else emanates from that - that he has lost confidence that you know what you are doing in his ears and that loss of confidence and irritation has extended elsewhere.

while everything else said here stands, i would seriously consider whether you are doing right by his ears - methods; depth, discomfort, and danger of the intrusion into his ear; frequency; and finally, if it is really necessary and good for him in the first place. personally, my approach to the idea of ear-cleaning would be one of extreme caution. any cleaning of the canal removes wax which is essential to protect his ears from the dust that concerns you in the first place, in addition to infections, bugs, etcetera. research shows that human adults and especially children who wash their ear canals get magnitudes more infection than those who leave well-enough alone. must be same for dogs and think i have read so, but can not specifically remember now.

[karenz]

I feel like I should elaborate due to some of the reponses. I don't want anyone to think I whack my dog or use physical discipline. When he was a few months old he would nip at me. Just being playful. I did try a soft pop on the snout and tell him no bite. The soft pop only resulted in getting him more rough. So I figured out he must have taken the pop as me playing back and he would escalate. But I do not spank hit or whack him at all, never.

The ear cleaning is only cleaning the upper part of his ear, not down in his ear. Just to get the dust out. There are no signs what so ever of infection or mites.

The first incident was when cleaning his ears but it was just a quick show of the teeth and nothing more. It became a bigger issue after I snagged his butt hair. I know it had to pull and hurt. Since that it has continued when I brush him and clean his ears. I can still rub and scratch his ears with no problem. Just the rag with the cleaner results in a reaction. Perhaps it burns. I may just trying to clean them with a damp rag and no cleaner and see if that fixes it. I don't know how to work around the brushing. With his long hair if I don't brush him at least every other day he will get knots which may result in snagging his butt hair again.

I did try the leash correction today while brushing. Of course he stopped when I did the correction. But I can also give him a stern no and he will stop. So, I don't know if the leash correction is necessary since he stops when I give the no.

[karenz]

Also as far as rough housing he definitely knows the limits, he stops as soon as I tell him to, and his out is good. We don't get crazy rough just a little playing not even wrestling. I will jump at him and he will get all excited and run towards me and I will grab him and push him and he will push back. Sometimes but not all the time he will get my hand in his mouth but he doesn't even close his mouth the slightest bit. It is a very gentle polite ordeal. But I decided to take a break from the rough play until we fix this other issue. Once I fix the problem I will slowly re introduce the rough play.

Other than this one issue he has very good manners, he listens very well. He is truly a very well behaved dog. Probably the most well behaved dog I've ever had.

[johninny]

sorry then to have bothered you about the ear-cleaning.

i do not think anyone here thought you ever hit Xander.

both of you sound lucky to me. he seems like a great dog. i am sure you will work out this threat of aggression; hope it happens quickly and easily. sometimes it can be quite puzzling.

as i mentioned earlier, TD was aggressive about stuff [ not in general ] when i found him, but cured him of that in a month or less. but 5 years later, he turned generally threat-aggressive and uncooperative toward me for NO apparent reason [ no triggers like you can point to and at least, superficially, a much more hostile situation in the case of me and TraceDog]. this went on for 2 weeks after having moved a few weeks earlier into the beach house on the bay i still occupy. he got a couple good walks on the beach every day and often explored the water, got to be outside or in as much as he wanted, etcetera. one day i decided that i was going to enjoy his walk on the beach, leaving my cell phone and all associated business behind; i even went in the water with him and swam and splashed about a bit with him. his hostility never again surfaced; he had been unhappy that i was not availing myself of the new paradise we were in - that he was left to ''enjoy'' it by himself. i had always been physically present, but i was missing in spirit. never again.

i know this is not your situation, but i tell it just to show how strangely complex [ and human ] their thought process can be that leads them to be angry with us.

[Raven]

Butt hair.

Thor's blowing coat. On and off this week I've been grooming and pulling out the undercoat. Last night, we're on the bed, he's asleep--but I see some tufts of undercoat butt hair sticking out. I start pulling. He doesn't open his eyes or even stir. Now I'm getting into it, so I rub my fingers in a circular motion to loosen up more undercoat. He lifts his head, looks back, eyes at half-mast, as if to say, 'Really? Now?' and plunks his head back down and closes his eyes. (Those undercoat tufts drive me nuts.)

Karenz...no one was saying you were smacking your boy. Hitting came up in the thread.

[karenz]

I just wanted to explain so no one got the wrong impression. I have started holding the brush and letting him sniff it and giving a treat. Hopefully I can build up to brushing. I'm thinking the nip was directed towards the brush and not me so I will try to show him the brush is not a bad thing. Thanks to everyone for the help suggestions and input. Any other ideas are greatly appreciated.

[Dutchringgirl]

we have Shepherds, how can we get the right impression??