Pulling twards cars

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cordeliandemon
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Pulling twards cars

Post by cordeliandemon »

Demon should be 4 months old on the 4th of December but he's pretty huge/heavy already.
As a result I really can't afford to have him pulling me around, especially once the snow comes in and I won't be able to keep my grip. :/
He's ok on the lead everywhere except when we get near the road, he pulls, barks and lunges twards cars and then just pulls in every other direction from excitement until the roads out of sight. I would really really appreciate suggestions for correcting this, I'm already starting to slip around in the wet leaf-littler near the road and it's hazardous.

Ps. Is howling common in Dutch shepherds? Demons got the call of the wild lately :)
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Raven »

There are LOTS of threads (and posts) on pulling...do a search or look under Whatever, Behavior and Education.

Are you marker training????
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Stacy_R »

Raven wrote:There are LOTS of threads (and posts) on pulling...do a search or look under Whatever, Behavior and Education.

Are you marker training????
Yes, tonz of info already out there. Now would be a good time to start marker training if you haven't already.
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cordeliandemon
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by cordeliandemon »

I must have missed the posts as I was going through, I'll look again. I'm not sure what marker training is
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Stacy_R »

~Stacy
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cordeliandemon
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by cordeliandemon »

Thank you for the link, I had heard of clicker training (though it's not widely used in Ireland) but had not heard of marker training. Essentially I am marker training him though I've been having trouble as he refuses to take food rewards (even if I manage to get a treat in his mouth he spits it right out again) I guess I'll try rewarding him with his favourite toy and keep reading around .
After a lot of searching I did find a couple threads on pulling, the forums a bit of a labyrinth from the mobile view and I hadn't had the time to dig as deeply today as Ive had other cats, dogs, birds and rodents in the house giving me the run around.
I appreciate they help
Sadhbh (pronounced "Sive", its an irish name) -
Demon (dutch shepherd)
Koda (alaskan malamute)
Sidney (collie/springer spaniel)- R.I.P
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Raven »

Is he spitting out the food when under distraction or does he always spit it out, even without distractions present?
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
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cordeliandemon
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by cordeliandemon »

With distractions he'll spit it out about 80% of the time but now and then he goes off his treats when he's at home and relaxed too, depending on the day I guess
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Stacy_R »

Have you tried balancing the pressure he is experiencing (i.e. putting him in a sit or a down with the car [road] behind him and you in front of him while the car goes by) while keeping him focused on you using food, favorite toy, etc?
~Stacy
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by cordeliandemon »

I have, he either startles or sits there and rejects the treat, then when I decide ok let's continue on he just tries to bolt twards or away from the cars. It's a bit of an awkward spot being that there's no footpath/sidewalk and you can't see what's coming from behind the corners either side until it speeds past you. He's only really been doing it badly the last 3 days or so.
Sadhbh (pronounced "Sive", its an irish name) -
Demon (dutch shepherd)
Koda (alaskan malamute)
Sidney (collie/springer spaniel)- R.I.P
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Raven »

Can you avoid that strip of the road/path for now? I'm worried his reaction will become a behavior.

Thing is, at his age, he doesn't have the skills (acquired from training in stages over time) to know how to react to everything he comes across in his world right now. If you came from Beverly Hills and I air-dropped you in the mountains, you'd need a guide. You are his guide. Right now, his reaction is telling you he doesn't know how to handle the situation...and that's what you're for, Mom.

I'd work strong on foundation with him every day, throughout the day, and small sessions that end on positive notes. Set him up for success during each success and have a big party when he complies or finally connects the dots. Things aren't going to happen overnight. AND he's still quite young. Once you and he have built a solid foundation, add small distractions...then increase frequency and in different locales, but only as he's shown he's ready.

Do you have any exercises to engage him? Is he engaged when you work together?

Don't push the cars-whizzing-around-a-blind-corner scenario on him. You need to work up to things.

What is a high-value treat for him? On the things that seem harder for him, use those. But if he's not engaged with you....
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Raven »

Moving to Behavior.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Stacy_R »

Raven wrote:Can you avoid that strip of the road/path for now? I'm worried his reaction will become a behavior.


Do you have any exercises to engage him? Is he engaged when you work together?

Don't push the cars-whizzing-around-a-blind-corner scenario on him. You need to work up to things.
Ditto all of this
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by cordeliandemon »

unfortunately its the only way out of my driveway and i have no choice but to deal with it every time we go for a longer walk off the grounds. hes semi engaged, getting better. we had a rough start and hes only now started to build a bond with me in the past 2 or 3 weeks (finally starting to settle down and ask for cuddles without constantly trying to gnaw on me/growl when he gets uncomfortable)
i cant help but get the feeling this behavior is stemming from a recent and disastrous trip to a trainer for a "behavioral consultation" pre-obedience training. literally everything that could have gone wrong this man managed to fabricate into being.
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Raven »

You may have seen on other posts that some of us here are big fans of "Crate Games" by Susan Garrett and Michael Ellis' approach to training and understanding canine behavior in general. Worth the time and money.

I don't know if his reaction to the whizzing-by-out-of-nowhere cars is all due to the trainer or added to the situation, but given his reaction, I don't see it getting better if things remain status quo.

How are you reacting when this happens--raising your voice, getting tense/stressed, pulling him, etc?
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Dutchringgirl »

Personally, I am a fan of prongs, the weather is getting bad and if its your health and saftey on the line, that would be my suggestion. Not to avoid training, absolutely train him on this and work with this behavior. But if in the mean time, this is your only route to go with him, I would put a prong on. You can get a small dog prong and get extra links, they also make them with rubber caps on them so they wont pinch too much and hurt or scare him.

Sadie was a hard puller as a pup and once I heard my elbow make a noise that it should not have. I got a small link prong for her and worked with her. Now she is fine.

Think about your saftey first and train him along with being safe.
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Stacy_R »

cordeliandemon wrote:we had a rough start and hes only now started to build a bond with me in the past 2 or 3 weeks (finally starting to settle down and ask for cuddles without constantly trying to gnaw on me/growl when he gets uncomfortable)
With this new information, his pulling toward cars behavior may be that he either doesn't trust his environment, doesn't trust you, or both. This is not meant to be a slam... Work on relaxation protocols (i.e. place or base) at home and outside the home . He needs to understand that he can control his reactions to the environment. Place/base help that...a lot. And don't force cuddles. Not all dogs are cuddlers...some dogs require more personal space than others and if you force the issue it causes stress and stress builds. Place/base is a really good way for him to realize and understand that he does, in fact, have his own personal space (besides a crate) where he can be part of the family, but can also be left alone and evaluate the environment.
cordeliandemon wrote:i cant help but get the feeling this behavior is stemming from a recent and disastrous trip to a trainer for a "behavioral consultation" pre-obedience training. literally everything that could have gone wrong this man managed to fabricate into being.
I would say that this is probably not the case since it just involves cars. If he were exhibiting aggressive or fear/aggressive behaviors in more than this part of his existence, maybe. But I don't think that this is what you have.

Prong collars. Like Lisa, I use one with Tyson. However, that being said, be VERY careful. If you use a prong incorrectly, you can actually exacerbate things and make the problem worse. I am still of the mindset that you somehow need to condition him to the cars without using a correction right now.

You said that this car thing unavoidable because of your proximity to the road. Can you do some exercises with him at the end of your driveway? For instance:

1) Walk to the end of your driveway (or someplace relatively near to the road, but close to home) with him on leash keeping him fully engaged with you with either a favorite toy or treat. (There is usually at least one thing that a dog will go bananas for and forget what's going on around him...cheese, liver, peanut butter, a ball, a rope, etc). It may take some trial and error, but find that one thing that he goes bonkers for and use that for this type of training only so that this special treat doesn't become a norm.
2) Put him in a sit and practice basic stuff (sit, down, recall, etc). He might be able to work through the car thing if he is "working" himself. If you see/hear a car coming them make sure you are working him with his focus on you and back towards the road (balance the pressure).
3) Do several repetitions of basics and even if no cars come during this time walk back to the house (again, keeping him engaged on you). Do this several times a day.

The key here is to keep him engaged with you the entire time from the time you leave your front door until the time you get to your training spot and then until you return home. These dogs love to work (even if that work is training) and if you can get his brain moving in that direction it will help. It will also help to build trust and a bond between you two.
~Stacy
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Dutchringgirl »

With the prong, until one it trained, dont even pull on it. Just hold it. let the dog pull against it and ease himself off. Sadie would bang against it herself and figure it out. Although I do have training with it. But just let it sit there and dont yank it.
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix »

I agree with what everyone on here has said. H would sometimes do that - be more focused on the enivornment and spit treats out (even ones he loved). Best technique was often the simplest: I wouldn't feed him. He wanted breakfast? Then he'd have to work with me. I would make sure he got something in him through training but if he started to yank me around or decide I was less worthy of focus, no food and back inside we went. A few minutes later we'd try it again. I kept the sessions short, success or failure, and because he was hungry his focus was easier to manage. He still got all the meals he needed but it may just be spread out throughout the day or one meal have more than another. Now this only works if Demon is more food motivated than toy motivated.

As an aside, have you taugh Demon nose games? I taught H to tell me which food he preferred via nose games. I taught him if I had a piece of hotdog in my hand, fingers closed over it, he had to smell it to find it then either bump my hand with his nose or paw at it to get to it. Once he got the hang of that and identifying which hand the hotdog was in, I started using two pieces (and clean hands) of different food items; hotdog and chicken, kibble and lunchmeat, whatever. Whatever he went to first was preferred. Sometimes I'd test it again with the treats in different hands. If he went for Option A again, I knew that was higher ranking than Option B. That's how I figured out boiled eggs best all food, and hot dogs best kibble, but boiled chicken bests hotdogs, and cheese bests chicken...
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Re: Pulling twards cars

Post by Stacy_R »

Kira ~
I was trying to think of something clever and uber intelligent-sounding in response to your work with H, but since I haven't yet finished my first cup of coffee all I can come up with is: "Love this!" :)
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