Help please.

[Tripmomma]

We have been doing some socializing with Kitsune...started getting her out at 8 weeks, she was 11 weeks on Friday. We try to get her out to a populated spot (Home Depot, strip mall etc) at least once a week, twice if I can (I'm able and willing to do more if that is the solution to this problem). She has been out to Home Depot 3 or 4 times now, been out on lots of walks, over to my mother in laws house 2 or 3 times too. She always starts off a bit timid and barky, but after 10 minutes she settles down and is fine. We bring cut up hot dogs for people to give her. She has been doing pretty well.
UNTIL TODAY.
We went to Home Depot again, Lowes and sat by a strip mall (about 20-30 min or so at each stop). She was barking at everyone (near, far, it didn't matter) and I noticed some tail tucking, hackles raising and trying to hide behind me. The hot dogs helped very little today, she even growled a little while she was taking a hot dog bit from someone. She has NEVER been like this before, and I do not like it at all.
Can I get some ideas as to why she is doing this now, and what should I be doing to help her over come this??
Please help, I really have a problem with shy unstable dogs...I need to make sure she gets over this.

[Dutchringgirl]

I would not have people fed her. Take a step back, you may have ovewhelmed her a bit. Back it down. I would not have people come upmto her, she is to approach them and they are to ignore her. For now, i would have her sit and just watch people,mno approaching. Cutnit shorter too...

[LyonsFamily]

I agree with Lisa. You're over socializing. You don't need people feeding your dog. You need to be around people, at a comfortable distance, while YOU feed your dog.

A great article about it has been posted on here before and I love the premise behind it. http://www.clickertraining.com/dont-socialize-the-dog I think the dog community has gotten way too into dogs making friends with humans and dogs and going to doggie daycare and dog parks. When I started competing in agility as a JR Handler, back when it was a new sport, we would go to class to learn the sport and dogs were expected to behave and interact with only their owner when asked. Now, walking into many dog training classes, I see dogs off leash playing with toys, dogs allowed to run up on others, people asking each other if their dogs can "make friends."

You also have to remember that the Dutch Shepherd is a working breed bred for protection and herding. The goal for a good shepherd is to be stable in social settings, but aloof to strangers. They're not golden retrievers and, in my opinion, should not be bred to be overly social to strangers.

For my own dogs, they're expected to act like well behaved individuals when we're out, no barking, lunging, etc, but I let them decide what goes as far as other dog or human interactions. I do not allow them to interact with other dogs outside of the home for disease prevention and because you never know when another dog could behave oddly to cause a fight. I do not let strangers pet Odin. He's in a basket muzzle at the vet and in a tight heel at training/events. He does not like strangers and doesn't really care for petting. Elli can interact with dog savvy humans if they ask as long as she remains in a sit. I do let her hug those we know if she and they are comfortable with it.

[Raven]

Agree about not having people treat her. It really means squat.

You've said before how you don't like "shy" dogs. Could you be anxious enough about that where she is picking up on it? Consider your tone, movements, etc. while out with her. She'll pick up on everything. She's learning the world through you.

I used to take problem newbies to parking lots that weren't busy but where there was degree of activity. I kept a distance. Kept it casual but a learning experience. There's sounds and smells that are new--and for a pup, likely a bit scary--so ease her into it. She's being exposed to things that she doesn't know how to interpret...showing her how is your job.

So, yeah...back off big exposures. Work on trust and building a relationship through foundation work. Foundation work and marker training will see you through.

EDIT after reading Stephanie's post: PEOPLE CAN FORGET WHAT THESE DOGS ARE BRED FOR.

And they aren't GSDs.

They aren't easy dogs. We have to listen to them. Learn how they learn. Shift what we may hold true in order to succeed.

[Tripmomma]

Thanks for the input guys.
I will try the parking lot or outside a strip mall again, and skip Home Depot for awhile. When I had people feed her we would approach them, or walk by them down an isle, and if they spoke to me (or she barked at them) we would stop and chat for a minute, everyone wants to know what kind of dog she is, then she would get a bit of hot dog from them. She was barking her head off and being a little skittish so I thought it would help her see they were not threats. We go early in the morning, so the place was not hopping, she got hot dogs from maybe 4 people....but barked at everyone in the place.

I am just confused as to why this time went badly when our last couple of trips to Home Depot went fine?

I don't want a Golden, I am fine with aloof, but I would like her to know she doesn't need to bark at or feel threatened by everyone she sees. At the strip mall we just walk around and/or sit at a table checking things out...we don't talk to anyone, no one came up to us, yet she felt the need to bark at people going in and out of stores 30 feet from us.

I don't think she is picking anything up from me, but I'm sure it is possible. It is true I don't appreciate a shy/fearful dog. It is embarrassing that she barks her head off at people doing nothing but being within 30 feet of us. There is no reason for that behavior, I want her to know when barking or being concerned is needed and when it is not. When she would bark at them I would tell her "leave it" or "enough" and try to distract her with hot dogs...but then I was worried if she would take that as me praising her for what she was doing. I for sure don't want to do that.

I am taking her up to see her breeder and his working dog club this Sunday, maybe he will have more advice or insight since this is his breeding.
For now I will back it down.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Could be a fear stage she's hitting.... H barked at everything when he was little. I started listening to his types of barks and was soon able to tell his talk-y barks from his alert/danger barks. Make sure every experience she has is good - if she can't handle multiple places do 5 mins of a low key place. If she wants to hang in the parking lot and explore, let her. Best thing you can do is build her confidence now instead of forcing socialization. Build the bond between you. As someone has a dog that started off fairly similar, minus the tucked tail, you don't want to go down the road of working her until you get a response that makes you happy. Not trying to sound harsh, but I would honestly let her lead for a bit. She may be unsteady because she doesn't have enough trust in the bond between you two, or it's a little too much for her as she sorts and thinks about her experiences as she grows, or maybe she wants a break.

Also remember your emotions affect her as much as her's affect her. So if you get embarrassed about her barking, and I've been there trust me, remain calm. It's not about what others think of you and her, it's about making sure she has the best experience possible. As I believe Lisa or one of the other great minds on here says, you are your dogs biggest advocate. Doesn't matter what others think. You are their voice. If you want an easy trick, get her a puppy vest that says "in training" on it. A lot of sins are forgiven with this vest as I've found.

Also, depending on lines, she could be showing her protection/defense drives coming in. It's not exactly common but not unheard of either. This is when you don't want to force mass socialization but rather work one on one so you can address her behavior with a controlled environment. Her breeder should know exactly what's going on and be a big help to you too. She's from Les isn't she?

Just try to think of it from her eyes. She's an infant and she's throwing a fit there must be a reason. Overload? Fear? Defense drives kicking in? There's an answer somewhere in how she responds. Watch her and you'll start to see what she's saying with her body and before you know it you'll be able to read her with a glance. They tell you what's going through their mind, maybe not in a way that's obvious, especially if you're used to dog language, but it's there. These guys' personalities makes reading them a very unique experience.

[Tripmomma]

Thanks. You are right, I need to not worry about what others impressions are, I will try to keep that in mind. The vest is not a bad idea.

Yes, she is from Les at de las Flores. I'm hoping he can tell me just what this is (fear period, socialization issue, nerve issue) and what to do to work through it.

You guys have given me some great ideas, I will put them into action. I will update as we go

Thanks again!

[Tripmomma]

Interesting development today. Kitsune had her first vet check up, it has been on the books a long time so I didn't want to cancel. When we first got there she only barked at people that came up to us. The techs and vets were very good about ignoring her and letting her come to them and take a treat, she warmed up after 5-10 minutes. Then the interesting thing happened. The vet asked if she could take Kitsune in the back for a little socializing. She didn't bark or growl or anything at a single person in the back...out of our presence. The vet thinks she may think she is protecting us, though she is on the timid side when she is barking at people. SHe also met another dog there and did pretty well with him. I was encouraged by today's visit.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

So it is defense drives kicking in. My dude is the same way. People can't pet him if he's with me but off leash/with another handler he is fine to pet. They make very good protection dogs but it also requires a very careful socialization. She's young enough you can probably get farther than I could with H, but don't be surprised if certain people she'll never like.

Best thing to do at this stage is work on meeting people one on one who you know and can give specific instructions to. Have them ignore her. No eye contact. Let her make the moves and treats galore when she does meet them. If she wants to go up and sniff them then walk away that's fine. If she doesn't want pets from people that's fine. Working on watching people from far off while being calm will also help.

[Tripmomma]

I think we will keep to the parking lot idea, or taking a seat outside a strip mall, to watch the people come and go. I better dress warmer and bring hot cocoa LOL.

When she barks and it is not needed, do I continue to tell her "enough" or "leave it"? Or do I just ignore her and try to get her focus on me and treat her when she does? Or both?

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

First I would work below her threshold - so see if there's a distance she's comfortable with people passing without too much anxiety. How I worked with H was when he would see someone I would treat him. I would start saying "where is people/person?" And if he found one by looking and before he could bark I would say "good!" Or whatever his marker word was, and treat him. Key was to get him before he barked. If he did it was ignored and I would either physically (gently) turn him away from the person if he was over threshold or if he was under would try to get him to look at me. You can use the same technique to get her to look at you instead - it's easy to adapt to what you want the end behavior to be. When she's comfortable and can see several people without being stimulated, move 5-10 feet closer ( or whatever distance she starts to seem uncomfortable with, maybe a step before that) and repeat.

My guy is too sharp and is more comfortable keeping his eyes moving than looking at me when in public. Unless there's a singular distraction, such as a lone man walking or passing a dog, then he'll look at me until I release him. The goal is to shape the behavior you want in the end that also is the most comfortable for her at this stage. That's why I first work on sighting the object she's worried about and treating to make it neutral before asking for a behavior. If she doesn't trust the object she's not going to look away.

As a side question how is she with people coming over to your house?

[Tripmomma]

Thanks, great tips.

We don't have a lot of visitors. We have had 3 occasions of people coming over, she started off barky and unsure of them. After 5-10 minutes she would warm up and want to play with her tug toys.

When we take her to someone else's home it is the same, she is barky and unsure of them for the first 10 minutes, then she is usually fine.

[Dutchringgirl]

Sadie is the exact same way, super barky and protective at first. I tell everyone to ignore her and let her figure things out at her own pace, once she settles she is your best friend and wants to play.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

As another point in socializing to consider, might help to have more people come over to the house if you can. H is super protective of the house and gets over aroused since we didn't spend a lot of time when he was younger with people coming over. I wish I would have just so I have a calmer place to start from when working with him. Working with people outside the house/coming to the door is easy enough, but coming IN is a different story to them.

Also, as you work through this, keep building her confidence. Take her to empty playgrounds and just go happy crazy and food galore as she explores new sights/things/textures. While playing if she brings you the toy, happy excited "good girl!" and enthusiastic play. You'll see a big difference over the months. This also helps with socializing because you're giving her a LOT of new experiences, with and without people, so when she encounters something strange or surprising her first instinct won't be to slide into defense. Right now she's experimenting and learning how to react to things she has never seen. The more you show her, calmly and in a good way, the more willing she'll be to give things time to judge instead of instantly deciding "NEED TO PROTECT". You can do this with all sorts of fun environmental stuff at home where she's protected and the environment is fairly controlled, and with what's handy.

[Tripmomma]

Thank you, I really appreciate all the time and help.

[Tripmomma]

We had some friends over today that Kitsune had not met before. My friend Dina brought her 4 kids and their DS pup who is almost 4 months over to hang out. The first 5 minutes Kitsune barked at everyone...then she and the other pup started playing and all of a sudden all the new people were awesome. This pic was taken shortly before they went home. Stranger to friend in a couple hours


We are heading to see Les, and his dog club, tomorrow.