Groc352 wrote:
its just hard to understand how a dog can go from 0-kill in 5 seconds. how can they go from being together all day every day doing everything together never having any problems (except the recent food issues) to wanting to kill!?
wish they could just talk sometimes...
She didn't. I'm certain she was showing you signs, you just didn't catch them. It happens.
Groc352 wrote:yes the high value treats are what she recommended.
I stand by my earlier comment...find a new trainer.
Groc352 wrote: I don't think molly can get over the attack, she could have been killed. it was very serious.
yes, she can....it's us that have the problem sometimes.
All in all, it sounds like you've made your decision to re-home one dog. You said NADSR wouldn't take Zia, but what about Molly...is she purebred? Maybe NADSR would take her.
Like I said before, write up detailed bios with pictures for both dogs and post them on this forum. The reality is, is that if she ends up in a shelter, she will more than likely die. Owner surrenders (especially those with behavior issues) will be euthed before more adoptable dogs. In some cases, depending on the fullness of the shelter, an owner surrender will never make it to the adoption floor. Sad, but a fact.
Also, once you have your bios with pictures done, contact All Shepherd Rescue. They may be able to help you at least network the dogs.
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher http://www.rescuedme.org
Tell us about yourself: Have two female Dutch Shepherds. Zia And Molly. Both about 3 years old. best friends I could ever ask for! aside from my fiancé lol
I haven't really made the decision to re home one..i just don't know what other options we have?
I never want this to happen to Molly again..or have to go through it myself with them.
another trainer? more hundreds of dollars potentially wasted..what if this isn't a fixable problem?
I really don't want to lose either dog. I want it to work...just don't know where to turn at this point. 2 attacks and $2,000 later, I don't know what else to do.
I agree, the behaviorist was not helpful at all. all she did was talk to us for 2 hours about dog behaviors.
didn't do a single thing physically with the dogs.
do you really think a dog can get over being attacked like that? im just curious. I would love to think she could...and some day we go back to a normal house again with both dogs...
I do have to agree with Stacy, especially about tethering the dogs (flight vs. fight) and the behaviorist, though that helps you not.
If you do re-home either one...boy, it'd have to be someone familiar with the story and willing to take the responsibility. There's you and a rock and a hard place, however you decide to handle the situation.
Did you see where Stacy has contacts she trusts in NC?
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
Tell us about yourself: Have two female Dutch Shepherds. Zia And Molly. Both about 3 years old. best friends I could ever ask for! aside from my fiancé lol
part of the reason I had them tethered(one to me, one to a large tire) was because earlier in the week I had done the exact same thing, and had good results. only difference was I didn't have any high value treats. just the normal cookies they get every day. Molly ignored Zia for the most part, the two didn't show any signs of aggression or reactivity towards each other.
so I wanted to build on that small success. but it went wrong before I could.
is this situation worth trying to make work? or is rehoming a necessity at this point?
I don't know if I feel right about putting Zia with someone else knowing what she has done, if someone else will even accept her for what she had done.. Molly might have to be the one to go.
Feel bad, because if we rehome Molly, it will be her 4th home in 2 years.
Zia we have had since she was 5 months old...which also makes it hard to see her go to another home..
I have herd of all shepherd rescue and will contact them today.
I also contacted a lady who works a horse farm, but does "un kenneled" dog boarding as well and specializes in difficult dogs. She said she would take Zia in work with her for a few days to get to know her behaviors better, and is confident she can find her a proper home.
First off understand what I'm saying is without judgement. This is a hard situation and we all understand that. What I'm saying is to try to help you understand your choices.
One, you now have a HUGE problem. Zia cannot be around other dogs. I wouldn't even trust her to play with them until you teach her that this behavior is not acceptable. A trainer will be needed to help her.
Two, Molly may be temperamental to other dogs showing the least amount of aggression to her now. I also wouldn't trust her in any other environment other than home. A trainer will be needed to help her.
Three, you need to find another trainer. You keep making the situation worse. I understand you're trying to help your dogs and it's confusing and accidents happen. Trust me, been there done that. But the BEST thing you can do right now for both your dogs is to not let them be around each other unless you are with a trainer. You need TWO handlers for this situation, and one needs to understand what is going on. In the point of Zia being tied, you just described an unsure, uncomfortable, and insecure dog on a back tie. Putting her in that situation would of course make her go off, put her into defense drive and putting yourself, Molly, and Zia in danger. Always, always, always consider your equipment failing when a dog is backtied. The increasing vet bills can be avoided with proper safety, consideration, common sense, and keeping the dogs separated.
Four, accept the reality that this will take A LOT of hard work. Investment in a good trainer is absolute. This is a problem that you can fix with hard work, time, and patience. There is no guarantee now that a shelter, rescue, or anyone else (when moved into their home) can help Zia or Molly, because once you put them into a new environment without you, without their home, you've introduced a slew of new stress for the behaviors to get worse or new behaviors to develop. Also just because someone says they can help doesn't mean they can. I would ask if they are familiar with DS, hard females, working dogs, and if you can talk to any past clients. You've got two very confused, scarred dogs right now. A good trainer, you, and a lot of effort can fix a lot of bad past mistakes - maybe not all, but a lot can be undone, if the damage doesn't continue.
Five, to rehome one without informing the new owners/rescue ALL the details of what's happening is dangerous for everyone involved. If you feel that is what is best for your home, that is fine. We cannot make that decision for you. But you MUST inform everyone of the behavior problems in FULL detail as it's a liability now. Understand that giving one of them up may not mean that dog's problems get fixed.
Six, you said you haven't decided to give up one dog, but I saw 2 postings for Zia up on a rescue page and a DS page on FB. Since the description fit what you were talking about here, I assume that was you. If it wasn't I'm sorry for making the assumption.
Seven, if you are truly dedicated to helping your dogs, this situation can work. It sounds like you're looking for a reason to rehome one. Again, that's your decision. You just have to stop and use your head and PAY ATTENTION TO THEIR BODY LANGUAGE. This is HUGE. That is how dogs communicate. You can learn so much just by watching dogs. I can read my dog like a book and the second I see a shift in weight I know what he's going to do. Be open, be mindful, read and learn as much as you can about this topic, find a good trainer, and WORK. WORK, WORK, WORK. Again, if you feel you cannot or do not have the resources, that is your choice. I'm just saying it IS possible.
Kay, H, and The SO
(Pepper's Look-A-Like)
(Tyson's Soul Twin)
Tell us about yourself: Have two female Dutch Shepherds. Zia And Molly. Both about 3 years old. best friends I could ever ask for! aside from my fiancé lol
first off, thank you all for the replies. means a lot to be able to talk to people who understand and want to help. I am very lost and don't have much direction right now as to what to do.
That was me posting Zia.
I felt I needed to start looking for a home for her right away. but I have gotten no responses.
I cant respond to everything right now since im working, but I appreciate the advise and take no offense to anything you've said.
im confused and scared also. im not an experienced dog trainer and have never had to deal with a situation like this. I agree the "behaviorist" we hired a crock. she didn't help us at all. she made us more confused. and yes, I shouldn't have tried working with them on my own. ive made a lot of mistakes recently and they have caused one of my dogs great harm and me emotional distress.
I want to minimize these mistakes.
if anyone knows good trainers in the southeastern Wisconsin area let me know.
Groc352 wrote:part of the reason I had them tethered(one to me, one to a large tire) was because earlier in the week I had done the exact same thing, and had good results. only difference was I didn't have any high value treats. just the normal cookies they get every day. Molly ignored Zia for the most part, the two didn't show any signs of aggression or reactivity towards each other.
so I wanted to build on that small success. but it went wrong before I could.
Dog training 101 - just because it happens once, doesn't make it so. A lot of people make this mistake. The success that you saw earlier in the week could have been, for lack of a better term, an accident. You never move to the next level (especially when dealing with things like this) until the desired behavior is repeated over and over and over without fail.
Groc352 wrote:is this situation worth trying to make work? or is rehoming a necessity at this point?
Ryan - only you can answer that question. Only you know your situation (home life, work life, finances, emotions, etc). Quite frankly, both dogs need to be evaluated and probably spend time with a trainer whether you keep both or rehome one. There is a dynamic that has come about that needs to be addressed no matter what you decide.
If you choose to stick with them, it's going to cost you...time and money...and lots of both. That being said, it will be worth it in the end if you find a behaviorist who really is a behaviorist. (My friend has a Plotthound Pit mix...lots of issues....very reactive. She uses the same trainers I do and now Maple can exist - and even curl up next to - the other dogs in the home. This took months of work, but it was worth it for her.)
On the other hand, you mentioned that you don't trust Zia anymore. I get that. If you don't think you can get past it, then you really should consider trying to rehome one of them so that you can focus your training on only one dog. Dogs will pick up on your energy and if you are nervous/anxious both dogs will feel it and they will react.
Either way, you need to be committed....either committed to making it work, or committed to finding a home for one or both of them.
I'm going to say something very hard and unpopular.
I'd rather see an aggressive dog that disrupts a family's life because of it and the family can't work through it (for whatever their reasons may be) put down before handing them over to unknown people/handlers.
I don't say this lightly and I'm not talking about dogs who are aggressive or have issues or........ I'm talking about certain situations that combine a lot of different elements. In some cases, it's the unfortunate but most realistic, and often humane, way.
I'm sorry if this offends anyone. I don't say it lightly or even recommend it in this instance. My DSs are adopted and came "labeled." My first DS's past made her so fear-aggressive (and unpredictable and dangerous) that some thought it was kinder to just put her down instead of risking making her worse by adopting her out. Not only making her worse...but making her more miserable...she wasn't a very "happy" dog. I'm glad they didn't put her down. It was lots and lots of work--and I walked away from a highly respected area "behaviorist" whose program would have done more harm than good.
I hope you can find the best solution for all and one that allows you to find inner-peace.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
Tell us about yourself: Have two female Dutch Shepherds. Zia And Molly. Both about 3 years old. best friends I could ever ask for! aside from my fiancé lol
After talking with Frank Allison at rocks k9 traning I feel better about trying another trainer. He has experience with Dutch shepherd's and other working breed dogs and how to deal with the exact situation we are in right now. He seemed confident that he could have the two dogs together again within 3 hrs.
He said his methods are a little different,and that positive reinforcement training is not the way to train.
I'm going to do some research into him and his methods.
I didn't feel good about rehoming either dog with anyone not experienced with dogs. I just didn't think that was the right choice, but didn't know what else to do.
These are my dogs, they are my "problem" to fix. Not dump on someone else. Right?
Groc352 wrote:After talking with Frank Allison at rocks k9 traning I feel better about trying another trainer. He has experience with Dutch shepherd's and other working breed dogs and how to deal with the exact situation we are in right now. He seemed confident that he could have the two dogs together again within 3 hrs.
He said his methods are a little different,and that positive reinforcement training is not the way to train.
2 things:
1. I would be hesitant to trust a trainer who would give me a guarantee (said or implied) that he could correct a situation like this in "X" amount of time without ever having met the dogs.
2. I would be hesitant to trust a trainer who is not willing to employ multiple methods. Not everything works with every dog in every situation. Positive reinforcement is VERY effective for many situations.
If it were me, I would scratch this guy off my list before I even got started and move on. A bad trainer can wreck your dogs very quickly.
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher http://www.rescuedme.org
Tell us about yourself: Have two female Dutch Shepherds. Zia And Molly. Both about 3 years old. best friends I could ever ask for! aside from my fiancé lol
Well I would much rather go with someone who has confidence they can fix the situation.
He has experience with these type dogs. Has delt with my exact situation before.
Sounds like all the things I've been told to look for in a professional trainer.
The first person we hired led me in the complete wrong direction and just talked for 2hrs. This guy is actually going to work the dogs. Sounds good
to me.
I havnt found anyone in my area with the experience in these dog breeds, or this situation. Everyone else has told me Rehome a dog is my only option.
I cant exactly go driving across the country to find the perfect dog trainer...
Some years ago, there was legal action between him and TV station; a client of his claimed that while in his care, he caused her aggressive dog's death. He, in turn, filed a complaint against a TV channel for how they reported it.
In the end, I believe--though could be mistaken--that the court did not side with his defamation suit was due to the autopsy (and other things), even though the dog had a previously known condition. So, it appears that he at least was found a contributing factor in the death due to the circumstance of handling. (I won't get into the details.)
By all means, please do your own research and perhaps further vet him out.
With any trainer, I would ask specific questions. You know enough to do that now, at least to some degree. We all end up making mistakes because we don't know, and luckily nothing too serious happens because of it and we learn from it.
Everyone has their methods of training, of course. I'd hate to see your babies go from one extreme to another in "behaviorists."
And ditto a million times what Stacy said about trainers being knowledgeable enough to read dogs and shift gears in training.
I understand the position you're in--a tight one--and wish you and your dogs the very best.
EDIT: He isn't taking your dogs, correct? And...listen to your gut and your dogs. If you're uncomfortable with a method, you can have him stop, at least enough to inquire what he's doing and exactly what it will accomplish.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
Tell us about yourself: Have two female Dutch Shepherds. Zia And Molly. Both about 3 years old. best friends I could ever ask for! aside from my fiancé lol
I did see about the lawsuit. The dog did have some type of cancer that it died from I think. that was also 15 yrs ago. I'm not leaving the dogs with him at all. Just a 3hr session.
The way I see it, if you have been training dogs for 30 yrs, one lawsuit is pretty good odds in this sue happy society we live in.
I am planning on going to his group sessions without a dog to see his training and talk to him in person.
I just want to do what's best for my dogs and my family. I am torn in a lot of different directions and it's hard to know what is the right way to go.
Tell us about yourself: Have two female Dutch Shepherds. Zia And Molly. Both about 3 years old. best friends I could ever ask for! aside from my fiancé lol
The dog had a thoracic condition. The autopsy findings concluded that that likely aided in the death but wasn't the cause of it. Anyway....
Glad you're first seeing him to observe and talk. When's your appointment?
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
EDIT: Technically, I don't know that that death was the only issue he's had. A lot of issues, not just deaths, regarding animals don't often come to law suits.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~
Tell us about yourself: Have two female Dutch Shepherds. Zia And Molly. Both about 3 years old. best friends I could ever ask for! aside from my fiancé lol
Raven wrote:I'm going to say something very hard and unpopular.
I'd rather see an aggressive dog that disrupts a family's life because of it and the family can't work through it (for whatever their reasons may be) put down before handing them over to unknown people/handlers.
I don't say this lightly and I'm not talking about dogs who are aggressive or have issues or........ I'm talking about certain situations that combine a lot of different elements. In some cases, it's the unfortunate but most realistic, and often humane, way.
I'm sorry if this offends anyone. I don't say it lightly or even recommend it in this instance. My DSs are adopted and came "labeled." My first DS's past made her so fear-aggressive (and unpredictable and dangerous) that some thought it was kinder to just put her down instead of risking making her worse by adopting her out. Not only making her worse...but making her more miserable...she wasn't a very "happy" dog. I'm glad they didn't put her down. It was lots and lots of work--and I walked away from a highly respected area "behaviorist" whose program would have done more harm than good.
I hope you can find the best solution for all and one that allows you to find inner-peace.
Wish there was a "Like" button for this post. It's a very tough thing to say to people and even harder to say knowing that it can be an poorly received by many. I commend you for putting it so well.
A couple of thoughts of my own to add. (Probably not as well put as most of the above.) Apologies if this comes off as blunt, its intent is to save you or your dogs from some heartbreak, distress, or actual physical damage down the road, and not meant to cause affront.
Reading through the thread I can't help but feel that, bottom line, you aren't equipped to deal with the situation as it stands. Things aren't getting better, but are instead getting worse every time and each altercation is "training" and making the problem even less likely to unwind. From the outside looking in it seems like a more serious incident is imminent and I would recommend taking action before it happens rather than in response to it. I would allow literally zero interaction between them until the unsafe dog was out of the picture.
From reading the thread (keep in mind this makes it a sort of game of telephone here), I see Zia as a "sharp" dog that will only get sharper with a quicker trigger with age. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions from my own baggage having been down all too similar of a road personally. At this point though, these two dogs now have a history of fighting and are going to be much more prone to do so at the drop of a hat. Incidences will ramp up very quickly and become much more violent as well as Zia "learns" to fight. I understand this won't be a popular opinion most likely but everything is in fact training and dogs do learn to fight better and more effectively with each scrap. It can be a scary and heartbreaking thing to watch seeing your pet learning to do damage when you want the exact opposite.
Attention from Zia to Molly that isn't perfect will most likely push her right into panic mode and cause her to react in all the wrong ways. At the risk of humanizing a canine interaction, think of how you would act if the schoolyard bully you've been fist fighting hurries towards you. Maybe he just wants to shake hands today but you're probably already raising your fists "just in case". It's not going to take much to touch off another brawl between you once you've been down that road so many times. In that respect, I think that that level of behavior is more basic animal behavior than either canine or human.
Short version is that however long you've had either of them, you aren't experienced enough of a trainer to fix this IMO. Looking for help is admirable, but to be blunt I don't see you developing the level of expertise necessary to handle this powder keg before it explodes. The behaviorist is more your coach than the bombsquad that can be brought in to defuse things.
I would ask this... If it was someone else's dogs and I gave you a $1000 casino chip to bet on one outcome, a) there being another serious vet visit with rehome, euthanasia, or similar major disaster or b) a defusing resolution with years of peace. Which scenario would you put the chip on? That would probably give you your answer.
Similarly, if you re-homed Zia with another board member here and heard back next year that there was an attack of some sort to disastrous consequences, would you really be surprised and wonder what the heck they'd done to screw up your dog? Or would the news be received with a sigh and "I was worried that was going to happen."
Apologies to all for the downer post after months of lurking. The thread struck a bit of a chord with me (perhaps my own baggage.) Hopefully I'm way off and the past weeks have shown good progress and things are on the way to "all better".
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