Building the bond

[NWDS]

Hello,

So our dutchie is set to get here February 3rd, the day before my wife and my birthday.

I've contacted Les Flores and will be doing some training with him. Enzo is almost 2 years old and has been with his current owner since he was 2 months old.

I'm just seeing what people have done to bond with these dogs after adoption. The K9 officer on my squad told me to keep everything happy happy happy for the first week then start slowly disciplining.

I want a balance of showing I'm alpha and not putting too much pressure or discipline on Enzo and ruin our bond.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

RB

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

First of all I wouldn't think of yourself as Alpha or as needing to discipline him. These dogs are guided by the bond with their handler - trust and respect - and anything too hard and they'll fight you back. Domineering, not that you'll do that, but in general domineering usually ends badly for handler and dog.

Keep everything easy, simple, and fun. Let him be the gauge for how you're doing - you can't push him into trusting you. There's a difference in discipline and correcting a behavior; depending on how Enzo was trained previously this could be a collar pop, "no", "ah ah", or a pinch collar. Usually the softer correction while bonding would work, unless you managed to get an extremely hard dog. Honestly I wouldn't even consider a correction while bonding unless it was a serious line. So chilling with you on leash, playing games, walks... easy and fun, adjusting into his environment and you.

[NWDS]

Sorry I used discipline in the place of correction. Thanks for the advice.

[Raven]

Ditto what Kira said. Especially about respect. They're intuitive beasts with a strong sense of fair play. They show respect if they're given respect.

Correcting behavior: you can't correct a behavior if the dog doesn't know the correct behavior/response. Make sure the dog knows what is expected and that you've communicated clearly before correction.

Not only when you first get him, but along the first part of your journey: Observe him. Listen to him. Learn what makes him tick and how he learns. This helps guide your training. Work with the dog, not against him.

NADSR recommended bonding time for at least the three days before pushing any training, but when we adopted our guy, he was pretty wild so I taught him the protocol for how "we" were not going to bolt out the door when going out to pee on the first day. No corrections were given...just a calm "there's no other way we're doing this" demeanor. Despite his DeNiro-esque you-talkin'-to-me attitude, it was in the vault.

He's been my toughest dog. The beginning was...beyond challenging. I came to realize a few things, and one was that I wasn't listening to him. He learns fast but differently. I had to tap into that. The time came where he tapped into me, too.

So...spend at least the few days tapping into him.

Do you know any commands he might already know and how he's been trained to respond? If so, this might be a subtle way of setting the tone that you're the leader while you're "chilling" with him.

[NWDS]

That's going to be the fun part. He's trained in german and guess who doesn't speak German.

I'm working in it but to answer your question, he knows sit, stay, down, watch, get him, and I'm told he's good on recall. He probably knows more but that's what I've been told so far

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

German is fairly close to English so you'll be okay. Sitz, platz, fuss, hier.... I think stay may be weird. Do they use voraus for "get him"?

After the first few days just chilling I would start showing him how things are done, like if he needs to sit before he gets a meal, for a leash, not be on the couch, or anything that's sort of small. Start easy and slow - most of the time if you say no and ask again they'll relieve "oh, I needed to do that. Okay." If he's bolting out the door I would immediately start him on the protocols for that as soon as you get him; basically anything life threatening or a big problem address in a firm but calm way. Think of a kid learning the rules - you wouldn't demand something then immediately correct when they aren't real sure what's supposed to be going on. Since he has OB on him it shouldn't be a matter of correcting him for that - more of a "no, this" approach as you teach him anything pertinent to being a member of the family. Mainly remember to chill and have fun with your new DS!

Does your k9 friend have experience with DS?

[NWDS]

I don't think he has too much experiences with DS's. He's trained with a couple in the area. He has a 2.5 year old GSD. He offered help with bite work and tracking. And just to bring Enzo out to have fun.

Most of the training will be done with Les Flores.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I would advise to be cautious with the k9 trainer. Not saying all is the same and depends on Enzo and a lot of other factors, but a k9 trainer who doesn't adjust tactics or only uses tactics counter productive to how Enzo works/learns can seriously mess up a dog. Best to go in with eyes and ears open and while yes so and so has this much experience, if it doesn't jive with Enzo case closed. Again, not saying that will happen but just listen to your gut and your dog to avoid any bad habits. They're no GSDs which can be fairly forgiving in training. These guys are wicked smart and need respect - the damage done by a single session can sometimes take weeks to fix. There's a lot of stories on here about bad run ins. So just keep your mind and ears open.

[NWDS]

Will do. I've heard nothing but good things about Les. As for the k9 guys, it'll probably just be bite work. Not often do you get free use of a bite suit and 10 years of experience for free.

[Tripmomma]

I really like Les, I have one of his pups. He has a long history and a pretty gentle hand and demeanor. Everyone that I have talked to that knows him, or heard of him, had only positive things to say.

[NWDS]

Good to hear. I've exchanged several emails with him and he seems really nice and genuine.

[Raven]

I have no personal experience with Les but have heard good things about him from a few folks whose opinions I respect.

When you say the K9 guy(s) will be working on "just bite work"............bite work is serious business, and some approaches aren't necessary (so the trainer needs to be able to read a dog, like Kira said) and some can just ruin a dog. And some dogs shouldn't be taught bite work at all. A reputable and skilled trainer would know.

I'm sure you weren't taking bite work lightly when you wrote "just bite work," but I put in my two-cents, anyway.

EDIT: To reinforce what Kira said....Some of us on here know of K9 officers who have worked with GSDs and then got a DS--and "disciplined" them as they would a GSD--with bad results (as in emergency room). DSs have to be handled differently, and then individual DSs handled according to their personality. It's all worth it. You'll get back ten-fold what you put in to these dogs.

[NWDS]

Not sure why one little sentence would make you think that. By just bite work I was simply saying that's the one task that we would have time to do. Not taking it lightly.

I've quarried (what we call decoy) for these dogs and taking bites for 6 hours really puts things into perspective.

Enzo has done no bite training other than getting tested for protection. He doesn't hold his bite and releases it.

Our lead k9 guy has 8 years with his dog and is a master trainer. And has worked with Malinois and DS's.

I've not once seen negative reinforcement used, only positive, especially when he's helping a dog learn to fully commit to the bite.

Les will be doing majority of the training. With the k9 guys it'll be the use of equipment that my wife wont let me buy and dealing with different bite scenarios. As they said "bring the dog out and we'll have some fun".

They will not be disciplining the dog as its not their place to do that.

Hopefully it's clear as mud now.

[NWDS]

So I took Enzo out to hang out with our k9 guys. We did some obedience and they immediately noticed that he is over protective and a little aggressive, so the decision was made not to do bite work with him until I was more established with him And he would respect me more.

When anyone walked towards me he would bark continuously. we went over how to build the bond, working on my tone, and my timing with marking good behavior.

The little session lasted about 40 minutes and helped a ton.

On a side note, we tried to use a firehose tug as a reward but he didn't take to it. We had to use his ball. The tug seemed to be quicker to give as a reward. Has anyone had this issue and successfully got the dog to take to it?

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

First off I wouldn't do bite work with him until Les has evaled him and a foundation established. You said working with them was for fun. Well, when a dog doesn't even know the basics of protection work (from what you've said before) then I wouldn't let anyone but the trainer you're working with touch him. A GOOD bite work foundation takes months, not days or weeks, to establish. Don't create cracks in Enzo's foundation by switching venues, trainers, scenarios... Follow one path until you learn him, he learns you, the chosen trainer has set a good foundation, and there is a level of understanding of HOW your dog works in a bite. Since you've said you've worked with the k9 guys before then I assume you know the dangers of pushing a dog into defense drive while setting him up for bite work, no matter the age. Don't let your excitement of having Enzo overshadow what he needs. I know it's exciting but trust me, rehabbing a bad foundation is a heck of a lot more dangerous, time consuming, and haring than setting it up properly.

Second of all do you know if Enzo is civil? Do you know if that meant civil agitation, hidden sleeve, bite suit, or sleeve? Did his previous owner say how he did in new environments/with men/large groups? Were the k9 guys around him giving corrections? Have you had him out in new environments since he came into your home? Has he met strangers (and I mean true strangers) with good results? This all adds up to learning about your dog in different situations and stress levels, and how to settle him into situations.

Third, you don't tell the dog what reward it will have unless it's a puppy and you can imprint it. At this age the dog has already been imprinted/chosen his reward. If he wants the ball and will work for it, that's what he'll get. The order of toys for my guy is ball with strings, ball, rope, tug. I know one dog that only works for a kong, another who works for food only, another who works for a jute roll, and another who will work for anything from a plastic bottle to a tug. With a tug you don't give the tug - it's a game the dog has won. If Enzo likes the whole "run after the ball and retrieve" as his reward, then that's what he will work for. If he wants to tug on a ball on a string then that's what he'll work for.

[NWDS]

We did no bite work or anything defensive. When I brought Enzo into the PD he barked at a few people so they just showed me how they do obedience (heel and sit) with their dogs. When i brought Enzo out, they watched from afar and when I put him back into the car they told me where I needed work and how to improve my tone and marking timing.

As I said in my previous post they are totally hands off and suggested I not make physical correction for a few weeks if not a month unless it's serious. They explained that even on their dogs they had to take 3 weeks to build a bond and still have to maintain it.

I suck at explaining stuff but they are smart guys. I probably should've let him get settled in before taking him out but I was invited So I took it. The lessons I learned the other night, Ive shared with my kids and wife. Since then Enzo has been wagging his tail and cuddling up with us like crazy.

His old owner has had him in malls and around crowds. I've only had him at my PD around max of 5 people. Other than that we are keeping him home and taking walks where he encounters 2 or 3 people. He perks up when he sees them and I just praise him and give him his ball. He's calmed down alot and I'm sure that's because he is feeling more secure.

We have a long ways to go but we are almost looking at not doing protection work anymore but focusing more on OB when Les gets back.

And he burps like a person after he drinks water.