NEW from Colorado

[Stacey42]

Hi from Colorado,
We have a 14 month old mixed breed, Guthrie. His DNA results show German Shepherd and American Staffordshire Terrier and a number of other breeds. People have stopped me a number of times saying Guthrie has to be part Dutch Shepherd.

So I've joined here in case DS is part of his breed in hopes of getting more insight for his training and upbringing. We use marker training and he is crazy intelligent.

Most of our concern around training has been his reactivity on leash that escalates when he is restrained.
I cannot allow him to go up to every person and every dog we see of course and when he is held back or if I do not get him to focus on me and move on quickly enough he lunges and barks and is way way beyond threshold quickly.

I know it's my fault in not getting his training consistent and not understanding him well enough earlier on and he has been so very different in training than my Labrador.

So all that is to say I'm hoping to get better information from as many sources as possible. I ethically will not use compulsion training.
I'm trying to figure out what ways I can train him not to go over threshold when he's frustrated on leash.
I've been reading Grisha Stewart's BAT training for reactivity and have also watched some focus work videos with Michael Ellis.

Guthrie has also redirected his frustration aggression toward me a number of times when he has escalated and turned to bite on the leash but also climbed up the leash and jumped and bit my clothes and gloves, never any serious biting but still very unnerving.

He also gets very focused and stiff body before he goes into the barking and lunging and I've read Tellington TTouch can help reactive dogs get more in touch with their own bodies and become more balanced.

Thank you all for any insights.

[Raven]

Welcome!

You have described the DS I adopted five years ago from NADSR--well, at least some of the more alarming traits. My computer is acting up since log-in. Others will chime in, but I'll be back.

Moving to Behavior.

[Stacey42]

Thank you.
Since I posted I've been reading articles on impulse control training from Suzanne Clothier and will try to focus on staying calm and having a lighter leash touch when I take him out in a bit and then start completely over in the house with his training.
Also thinking I need to train a default sit for everything he is confronted with like a "ask me what's ok to do now" by sitting first
Love to hear anyone else's experience training with distractions without him going into lunging barking. Boy does he love rabbits, squirrels, birds, joggers, people, sticks, blowing leaves. . . Did I mention rabbits, Ha!

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Have you noticed any particular triggers when he goes off? Eye contact, certain clothing, men versus women, people moving fast, etc? This will actually help you understand his mindset a bit more.

As for the being held back that's not surprising. Restraint is very few dogs' favorite thing. First off TTouch doesn't work because most situations you don't have time to get the dog and start the massage. Say a guy rounds the corner suddenly and your dog goes postal. He's already over threshold and the only way to get him down is to back up, put distance between your dog and the trigger.

The good news is he's giving you cues to what he's going to do. The trick is beating the reaction. A strong "look" or "watch me" command is great for this but you must start at the ground and build it up, slowly building in distractions, practice and practice until it's automatic and solid.

Also, working on his threshold works. If you search the forum there's a few good techniques talked about on this site. I know I've mentioned mine a lot. If you search threshold there should be some stuff that comes up. I would highly suggest while you're doing this to try to limit exposure to situations where he will react. You have to give yourself time to start to build the framework for the behaviors you want and then try to match the "real world" experiences to what you know he can handle. When my guy was super reactive I would drop stuff in my arms and turn around and walk out if I saw him start to get agitated or heading towards threshold too fast.

The fact he's coming up the line at you tells me he's over his head and the only thing you can do at that point is take his communication and put distance between him and the trigger to calm him.

As far as leash pressure... Not too sure what lighter leash pressure would do unless you're yanking him around when he's not reactive... When he isn't... I mean you do what you have to to either get the two of you some distance and then it's normal programming. I'm assuming he walks fairly well on the leash until he reacts so I'm a little confused as to what lighter leash pressure would achieve... Maybe it's just me.

[Stacey42]

Thank you so much for the help!
I'm trying to keep him quarantined a bit meaning only walking in isolated areas until I build his training up more where his "watch" command works with more distractions than just in the living room! I'm also trying to get him used to a head halter indoors but trying to go really slowly and using treats because he really isn't liking it so I haven't used it outdoors yet at all.
What I meant by the softer touch in the leash is that I've been catching myself even in isolated areas with a death grip on the leash waiting for the next rabbit to run by or whatever little thing he might be wanting to go after so it's not that I'm dragging him around but I think I could practice being more relaxed and having a looser leash (still being able to have control when needed of course).
He walks well on leash unless he sees a trigger too close or has to go to the bathroom then he pulls and pulls and acts kinda crazy and sometimes goes kookoo running at full speed in different directions to end of the leash he goes then after he goes to the bathroom. Haven't rxoerienved this before with any dog.

His triggers seem to be wildlife of most kinds if they appear and surprise him and then go running, joggers if he is too close, people he knows if I won't let him run up to them, even a pine cone if he wants to grab it and I won't let him, dogs almost always unless we are far far away.

Also if he's behind a barrier like seeing someone out the window of the house or the car then insanity ensues! Lunging at window etc. I've covered some of the front windows in the house with a frosted film so he's not practicing going crazy all the time. And taught him to go get his toy when people come over so he's not jumping up on them and scratching them etc which has worked fairly well but we still need a lot more work not going nuts at the sound of the front door or garage opening.

He has impulse control issues with our other dog (Labrador) getting attention from people or getting a toy. Guthrie will try and run up between our lab and who ever is petting him and try and get between us so we have been ignoring him when he does this or telling him "back", "sit", and "wait" which he knows and then once he's waiting quietly we pet our lab and then tell Guthrie good boy and pet him too. But if he's on leash when this happens and we hold him back while someone pets our lab then it's lunging barking craziness.
We are finally finally all being a lot more consistent with all training in the household. For months and months we probably really confused him by not being 100% consistent.

We are also trying really hard to make sure everything he gets he has to sit or lie down first. Nothing in life is free. So every treat, every toy, meal, going through a door etc he has to sit or down first and that is starting to show some signs of improvement.
I'm torn by this idea of quarantining him because I worry he won't be exposed to enough people and places but I also know I can't have him practicing the lunging and barking and going nuts either.

I'm really really hoping that if I just spend hundreds and hundreds of hours training correctly that this will improve so he can have a normal life hiking with us, dealing with seeing other dogs etc.
So I guess I'm hoping I can hear from other people having similar situations who will assure me this isnt going to be like this forever as long as I put the hours in...and of course do the "right" kind of training for his particular issues.

Sorry I went on and on just feeling pretty overwhelmed with Guthrie.

[Stacey42]

One more thing... can you explain the training you did when you say
"I would drop stuff in my arms and turn around and walk out if I saw him start to get agitated or heading towards threshold too fast. "
I will also search the forum for threshold too.
Thank you!!

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Dealing with any reactivity or aggression can be overwhelming. Just remember to stay calm and take it bit by bit. Don't move forward until you're 110% sure.

So he's working in prey drive in part of his reactivity. Any fast moving object will trigger prey drive (running children, bikes, joggers, wild life, squirming children, cars sometimes, pretty much anything moving or jerking around fast). So that will answer the running rabbits and joggers. If you work on his "watch me" and also a "leave it" command, that should help... is he doing any sports or activities? I ask because sometimes in the sport they'll teach you how to cap drives, but I'm always hesitant to recommend Googling techniques on it because you can get some wacky stuff. For something like prey, teaching him another behavior will be somewhat similar. Also the surprising him thing is fairly normal - build up his confidence and work some exercises where things he's not expecting happens, like queuing up a sound on the TV or someone ringing a doorbell... Basically teaching him what he's not expecting is not always bad. Part of the surprising with wildlife is once he's surprised it's a fast moving object so "game on".

For the other part, I'll break it into two parts. One when he's being held back from greeting someone he knows, does his bark get higher pitch or do you notice a change from his "I'm gonna eat you" bark? My guy does the same with my neighbor who gives him treats. He sounds nasty but when you listen and realize it's a high pitched bark and his "snarl" is from inhaling so fast, you see he's not trying to kill the person but is simply super excited. Again, like you've identified, impulse control will help. You can work this with a friend. He has to sit and look at you for permission. Go up and greet then after a happy party walk away. A few minutes later oh look there's your friend again! Rinse and repeat. This is working the behavior you want. Now sometimes you can't go up and meet the person, you'll have to figure out how you want to approach that. This is where I personally tend to blur the lines a little. I don't ask him for a default behavior because if we run into someone while jogging or whatever I don't want him to suddenly sit and not budge because he wants his reward. I taught him that, after I see what he's looking at, I mark it with a word, like "grandma" or "Milkbone man". So sometimes when we see them and we can go greet, I'll tell him "go say hi to grandma", or if we can't I'll tell him "no, no grandma today" and keep walking the other way. He'll whine and cry and I sympathize with him but continue keeping him moving forward with a "with me" command. He knows now when I say "no Milkbone man" he'll turn away and trot with me without putting up a fight.

For the barriers, that's territorial. That's more of a "stop it when I say so" thing - they'll never NOT bark as they're alerting you to what's going on. So there's two ways I did this and had fairly good results. One was teaching the "quiet" command, which meant I also had to teach a "bark" command because he thought if he barked and stopped that was what I wanted, so I would get a lot of barking for nothing. The other was physically walking over to what he was going off on and acknowledging it. "Yes, I see it. No threat. It's okay." or something to that extent. These in combination seemed to work well for my guy. Others I know had luck with practicing with doorbells and "enough" (Karen?).

You will see an increase in reactivity on a leash or being restrained because you are withholding the dog which builds the drive for the object, making them crazier. So working, again, with friends giving your lab attention while he's on leash, keeping the same "sit" or "wait" routine you use at home, work in short bursts and make sure the lab doesn't butt into his "loving" time.

For the quarantine it's not absolute zero interaction. You're working at home with a behavior. If he can handle a little distraction, like someone moving around, then going into an environment with roughly the same stimulation is just more practice. If he can't handle any distraction at now, minimize the outings and don't stop on walks to greet people, etc. You're working this for him, not you, so work with what he can handle as you're teaching and using the behaviors. As he gets better and better the environments change. If you want him to sit to greet someone and you're in a chaotic place with people moving, you've got a lot working against you. And also, exposure needs to be done on the same level as where the dog is now. There will be improvement, and the exposure will change to meet that. But overwhelming the dog does nothing but work against you and him. I'm also a big proponent of exposure and training/proofing being different. If you're exposing to loud noises I want to make sure that dog is 100% okay with the noises first before asking a behavior out of him. Again, thinking of it from his terms, if he's somewhere new and maybe unsure or freaked out, asking him to preform behaviors is like trying to stop a kid from going towards a huge pile of candy. Now, this is specifically for exposure to new things. If I see the dog is doing good and isn't bothered, I switch into training and start asking for behaviors with motivators. The new environment becomes a new place to practice because I know he's okay with what's going on and can focus. Again, this all depends on the dog. Some dogs master a new thing in a few moments and others need to take multiple trips with just handfuls of treats and good experiences.

As far as the dropping things, if I was in say Petsmart at a slow time and suddenly a rush of people came in, my eyes are on my dog. If I see him start to stiffen or any signs of anxiety that I know specifically lead up to a blow out, I put down whatever I wanted to buy and quickly, calmly, and safely (meaning taking the least populated route to the exit) leave with my dog. Keeping him in there would only result in a reactive thing and I don't want to panic him by rushing out, so if I have to chill in an empty aisle until I get out for a few minutes that's fine.

Take all this advice in stride with what your dog does. You know him best.

[Stacey42]

Wow! Thank you!
I am going to read this multiple times and make notes and break a lot of this down to little training sessions and look up tips on a lot of these ideas.
Thank you so much for taking the time to walk me through so many different things here.

Just reading this makes me feel like I can do this, builds my confidence and makes me happier that I can help my dog make better choices, that I can make better choices and use better methods and we can both feel more confident.

I want him to try some sports but he's too reactive to bring to any place so I have been doing some work with tunnels indoors and jumping through hoops cause he seems to like it and it's something interesting I can do indoors with him, extra exercise and helps with some of his commands like getting him to wait after throwing a treat into tunnel before I release him etc for impulse control. I also do some nose work by hiding treats around the house and he has to find them and also put a treat in one container and have two other empty containers and he has to sniff the one with the treat so I'll open it and let him have it.

Ahhh yes the prey drive is very very strong! I have not done any work in capping it but am trying to work on a default "watch me" for everything.

I like the idea of trying surprises more with different things, I've been doing the doorbell and just knocking noises around the house and praising or treating for calm behavior but obviously need to do a lot more.

When he's being held back from a person he wants to greet especially someone he knows then it's the excited high pitch almost whining sound while lunging and barking which I interpret as over excited and frustrated that he's being held back. So yes the idea of working with someone to get him to be able to go a greeting without rushing someone and jumping is a definite. I need to practice a lot more and then the idea that I also need a way to cue him that sometimes he can't greet and we just have to move on. Such good advice and good suggestions, thank you!

Also curious what you or anyone else thinks about drugs since the behaviorist we will be going to may or may not suggest using them while he's training. I'm on the fence and need to learn more about how they could help or what problems drugs could add. Just throwing that out there in case you have any experience with that.

I really feel his reactivity seems like frustration and impulse control but not really like he wants to harm. I think the redirected aggression that has sometimes come towards me seems to have occurred from over the top frustration and he just thrashes and bites at the leash and wants to get to go or do what he wants (kind of like an aggressive tantrum). I really don't ever think he wants to hurt me or to hurt anyone else or another dog. Hopefully I'm not being naive but my observations and my gut tell me it's frustration and impulse control issues to work through.

I also try not to beat myself up that even though I've put in so many hundreds of hours of training and classes that somehow I've allowed these issues to continue and to progress without figuring out better training methods before now. Anyway that doesn't do any good so I just need to focus on starting from where I'm at and moving forward and doing better.

I really can't express how great it is to have someone with so much more experience dealing with reactivity talk me down off the cliff and make this all seem possible.

[cordeliandemon]

Really feel for your situation, my 6 month old demon used to attack the leash then work his way up and start biting my arms, hard. It was all about knowing his limits and when he was becoming overstimulated so I made walks shorter and more fun and spent more time on our relationship. He had a relapse a while back where he went for the leash during a too-long walk but I just ignored it and didn't look at him, It never escalated to biting my arm and eventually he got bored.

I think I get what you're saying about gripping the leash too hard and it's the worst thing you can do with a dog who pulls.
You hand will just be getting tired, the dog will feel your tension, and when he DOES react you run the risk of losing the leash because your grip will be exhausted.
I have a malamute koda and I don't doubt she could pull a truck, I'm literally the only person who can walk her and I've seen grown men try to restrain her and get dragged on their bellies. With her it's a mind game that she actually thinks I'm stronger. Unfortunately she's on pain meds right now and despite her legs being in bandages she's not aware how much strength she's using... She decided she wanted me to take her out to pee an hour ago. In the process of me trying to stop her she snapped her leather collar in half, tore apart a vet-cone collar and splintered the bottom part of the door pushing me out of the way... And this is her under heavy pain meds 0_0
When I walk her (and demon) I use 2 or 3 fingers hooked around the leash. No pressure, completely loose. If they pull or lunge at a small animal the relaxed hook will stay true. Just imagine your arm extends down into the leash instead of it being the hand then the leash, You can't drop your arm.
That could take some practise if you're not used to it. A harness with a handle might also suit for dog? I know harnesses are supposed to enable pulling but for some reason I can control both of mine 3x easier in a well built harness. Both have handles on the back and if a jogger runs around a corner too close I grab that instead of the leash.

I'm a bit sick and tired today so could only scan through the thread. I hope some of this makes sense and is some help, otherwise just ignore me ha

[Stacey42]

Thanks so much!!
I will try your leash trick and continue to work on my relationship with Guthrie so he can learn to check in with me and not just follow his impulse to lung at anything that moves!
Guthrie is strong too, no where near as strong as your Koda but I know how much more challenging it is with a reactive dog that is strong vs a little ten pound dog that is easier to control. Guthrie has pulled me down a few hills and once ran around in circles on a long leash and basically tied up my ankles and down I went!
Yes I'm trying shorter walks too and doing some tug outdoors on leash sometimes too so I can also practice some impulse control with the toy.
So much still to train and it will be a lifelong thing just impatient to get to the point where the basic things like a walk aren't so incredibly challenging!
I haven't been walking Guthrie with our 4-year-old lab because I was too concerned that if Guthrie went into crazy lunging mode while on leash with Seeger (our lab) that Guthrie might redirect his frustration to Seeger and then it would be scary chaos. So I do double the dog walks since I walk them separately (more exercise for me!).
Thank you for your help. Hope you feel better and Koda too.

[LisaV]

Just wanted to say hi! I'm from the UK.
Your pup looks gorgeous. My 14 month old DS "Elvis" has high prey drive. With the exception of one GSD out of 6 that we've had it's the strongest prey drive. It's squirrels, birds, motorbikes, cyclists, cars especially the noisy ones, joggers etc. He also used to attack his leash working up to my hands or arms if they got in the way. I tackled the leash thing by temporarily changing to a chain leash which stopped him pretty quick. When I switched back a month later he didn't do it. The wildlife thing is harder if he is off a leash in the woods. With cars, joggers etc I've given him lots of exposure walking him along busy roads and he doesn't bother about cars as a rule now just the noisy things. I call his name and chat to him etc to distract him from it . We are getting there. With joggers you have to be vigilant for them. I keep tasty treats, have him sit and focus him on me with the treat and let the jogger go by. It works for Elvis. His herding instinct is also very strong. If any of my 4 kids walk too far from me in Elvis' opinion he is round them up wanting us all back together. I've noticed many more wild dog instincts with him compared to all of our GSds past and present.
I guess with any dog you get out of it what you put into it. You learn all the time. My husband has worked dogs and I pick his brain all the time!

[Stacey42]

Thanks so much for sharing your experience and I agree Guthrie is pretty handsome! It actually helps a lot just knowing I'm not alone.
I'm working on creating setups with my husband on the weekends where we are going to work Guthrie with some of his triggers (dogs, joggers, bikes) from a distance at a certain park where we can get really really far away (at this point with certain triggers, he is over his threshold even from a distance). We think we can find a spot where we can park and work him but still be near the car and if we get surprised by too much stimulation up close we can always get him back in the car quickly so he doesn't get a chance to practice the lunging.

We're about to take him on a walk in a bit to a much less busy area and practice what you said with high value treats and working on his "watch me" command for when we see anyone approaching. I've been successful with this sometimes in the past but other times the prey drive wins over the food (always trying to figure out higher value treats for him that will keep his focus as we practice). All this is really just managing him though, and I really hope with working him from a distance on his multiple triggers and slowly over time decreasing the distance and increasing the duration that we will make more progress beyond just managing him (although for now just managing him would be great!).

When I'm not overwhelmed and/or frustrated and/or in tears I do really enjoy him. He has a wonderful personality and is ridiculously smart, I just need to work on my training techniques and putting the hours in for him. I've never had such a strong reactive dog or a dog with such incredible prey drive so this part of dog training is new to me.

I love learning about animal behavior so I guess the universe just sent me Guthrie to fulfill my interest! Ha!
Thanks again and feel free to offer any other ideas if you think of anything that has worked for you!

[Stacy_R]

I haven't really read every word of every post here, so forgive me if I am stating something that has already been said.
Two very important things:
1. Don't over-think it. Just like anything, if you over-think it you'll miss the obvious. And over-thinking will stress you both out which will have the opposite of the desired outcome.
2. Reading and researching and discussing are all great things to increase your knowledge base, but none of that will make a bit of difference until you learn how to read your dog. Ears, tail-set, posture, everything. Figure out what is excitement, what is aggression, what is insecurity, etc. Focus on that first and foremost and then you can begin to redirect, or make him work it out, or whatever. You said "I'm trying to figure out what ways I can train him not to go over threshold when he's frustrated on leash." Learn to read your dog before he gets there is the best answer.

[Stacey42]

Great advice!!!
Can you tell by my writing that I overthink things!!!!! Ha!
I'm analytical to a fault and a perfectionist to a greater fault!
Yes yes yes the signals he's giving me thru body language etc are top priority to be able to help us both make the best choices!
Perfect way to go to bed and dream about reading him better and reacting accordingly!
Again thank you!!

[Stacey42]

Update: I've been paying much closer attention to what Guthrie can teach me about what he needs at any given time so I can do a better job at guiding him through each situation. We are making progress but even more importantly I'm feeling so much less frustration and anxiety even with the knowledge that Guthrie and I have a very long road ahead. Thanks to everyone for the advice and support.