Broke down and bought a muzzle.

[Tripmomma]

So Kitsune hasn't got any better with strangers, unless I have 5-10 minutes to do a long and slow intro. She is just super reactive to strangers...she barks and lunges and just acts like an ass. She scares people (I have to admit I don't trust that she wouldn't bite someone) and she barks her head off like crazy. Today was her first day in a muzzle...I hated having to do it, but I wanted to see if it would help. She still tried to bark at people, but gave up quite a bit quicker if they were not within 10 feet of us. She would still bark and lunge at people withing 6 feet...but I am hoping she will get better. I had her ball with us...it is impossible to play with it with the muzzle on, but it still did a good job of getting her attention away from the strangers.

I wonder if she will out grow this or if the muzzle is going to be a permanent thing?

I don't mind her being protective, but I do mind her barking and lunging at non threats...especially after I tell her "enough". She just looks like an unruly aggressive dog to people, I don't like it.

[cordeliandemon]

Hey, I know the feeling! demon could be a bit of a hellhound at the park when he was littler.
As far as I can recall you were doing socialisation stuff with her when she was small? Personally I do a bit of the opposite and try to keep my guys aloof to strangers (still a work in progress, he's only 7 months after all)
Seems easier to keep yourself as the centre of their world as apposed to the dog seeing everyone as a treat dispenser/play machine (and failing that thinking every well meaning stranger is going to confront them in the street whether they like it or not)
Maybe you could try to reverse the process a bit? Exery time they see a stranger you could get them to focus on you instead with extremely high value treats as a reward, or consult a professional trainer.
For both my dogs I sternly tell people they're not friendly/they bite just to get them to leave them alone. Demon even has a bright red leash with "CAUTION" emblazoned on the sides.
I really hope your situation improves and a more experienced person can chime in, as this isn't my area of expertise.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I'm going to ask a bunch of questions so we can get a better idea of what's going on. I know you've been working really hard with her so this is more for everyone's clarification.

- How old is Kitsune now? 5-7 months?
- What training/techniques/protocols have you been using up until now with the stranger reactivity?
- Is there a certain distance she's okay with or is it just everyone she lays eyes on?
- Is her bark the excited kind or the I'm gonna kill you kind? I know my guy has a bark he does for our next door neighbor he loves, and it's super high pitched, but he barks so fast when he inhales it sounds like a weird snarl. Totally different than his "hey get off my property or I'm gonna kill you!" bark.
- Is it certain places or just every place you go she does the same behavior? If you it's at a certain store, like Home Depot, and you change locations to a different Home Depot, does she do the same thing?
- Has Les said anything about the behavior?

As a random aside which really has nothing to do with anything, one of the ways someone told me to muzzle train/build drive after the initial shaping behavior of wearing it, was to put it on and throw a ball/give them a Boomer ball. The face they can't even get to the ball build frustration, which builds drive, then after 10 seconds (you eventually work up to more time) you take off the muzzle and they can go play with the ball. To me this has nothing to do with building the want to put on the muzzle but more of a way to build ball drive. Which.... maybe, if you use the technique at home to build her drive, you could overrule her need to react. Sort of the ultimate toy - my guy has one ball he just naturally loves to death, and no matter what he is doing, if I bounce that one ball, he comes running and wants me to throw it. No idea if that would lead to this but maybe another idea to consider...?

[Tripmomma]

Thanks guys!

Kitsune is 5 months.
I started out when she was 2- 2 1/2 months having strangers treat and pet her...at first that went fine. Around 3 1/2 months she started acting aggressive/fearful. I stopped having people treat her. I tried to just go to somewhat busy places and sit and watch...but she was barking her head off at anyone within 20 feet of us. So I pretty much stopped taking her out to populated places. We continued her commands training at home and at parks when empty. When she barks at people I tell her "enough" or "leave it" and try to get her to focus on me. This works a bit better now at 5 months than it did when she was a younger. She is really into balls and tugs so I try to use that and put her through commands to get her to focus on me instead of strangers...but it is not 100%.
She seems to be more reactive if people are closer than 10 feet. At 6 feet I really have to try hard to keep her attention. At 3-4 feet is where she lunges.
Her bark starts out very serious, but often will change to more whiney if they stay visible but also stay 6ft or more away.
It is every place we go, at every stranger we come to. She even does a little bullying of people she knows but hasn't seen in a while.
I'm seeing Les on Sunday to go over this with him...I think he wants me to get an Ecollar or a prong and do more serious corrections, but we will see what he says when he sees her in action on Sunday. I'm sure she will be barking her head off at everyone there.

She is such a sweet want to play with everyone kind of dog if she has slow and long intro's...but she starts off very over the top and reactive with everyone at first. Almost like she is trying to bully people or overcompensate for feeling unsure/scared??? I hoped her nerves were more strong if that is the case, I came to Dutchies to get away from GSD's poor temperaments.

Thanks for trying to work this through with me.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

My dude went through the exact same thing, although he stopped a car jacking when he was three months and things went downhill from there. Here's the good news - there is light at the end of the tunnel. At almost 2 years H is pretty solid around people and the reaction has almost stopped. If he does go off it's because of bad vibes. He can even handle insane new situations without blinking, things I never thought he could handle. He's insanely in tune with me and OB only makes that connection deeper. He can still be an a**hole at times but he's finally hit a mature point of view when regarding situations.

So Les may suggest a prong collar pop if she goes off on a stranger and then treat the second she calms down. I used a similar method with my dude when he went over and out over dogs and it does help, but I've never used it with humans, but I know it's a favorite technique for IPO folks. At 5 months I would be willing to split the difference between desensitizing and corrections, though I wouldn't use an ecollar or a prong until at least 7-9 months. I know some people have a lot of luck with low-stim ecollar work on 5 months old. I'm just under the impression that sometimes a pup is super immature so needs more time before introducing harsher corrections like prongs/ecollars, so better wait. The only time I would consider upgrading is if collar pops do absolutely nothing - she needs a correction that means something to her. Collar pops work for my guy 90% of the time, unless he's in drive then it's a prong or a collar. As pups DS are just hellions in general so I wouldn't necessarily count her reactivity as a mark towards poor personalities just yet.

I would hazard a guess she's in her a**hole mode. My guy gets into those modes. I swear he loves barking at people just because he thinks it's fun and a good time. The good news is that's not a mark of being scared but rather just arrogant and full of themselves which isn't such a bad thing, especially if you want to go into sports. Especially if she's whining at the end. If it's the whine I see my dude due it's the "oh come back/I'm in drive and want to chase after/I want more fun please" whine. Does she have a correction marker, like no, or do you use enough? I use "no" with a correction, I find it helps H more than just a correction. At this point I would work at 12 feet, and if she starts barking and ignores you when you say "leave it/enough", correct her. I used to correct ("no" also used) and move us so H could no longer look at the person, back to them, and told him to "look". If he tried to look behind him, correction again (again with "no") and "look" again. If he did it he got his reward and we turned back around. The turning around helped him not be distracted by the person until he could look at me without dropping his gaze. Once he could do that we would stop turning around. Once he was good with that we moved closer. I also found making it the best party EVER (and I mean really making an absolute fool of yourself) really helps get the point across too.

I would work up to 6 feet. Try not to put her in situations with people passing closer than 3-4 feet until she's okay with 6 feet, though I know it can be hard to avoid. There is a difference between strangers at 10, 6, and 3 feet on the threat scale to a dog, especially if they're making eye contact. A closer person making eye contact is more of a direct threat than one not making eye contact passing at 10 feet. So working slowly up to close contact would help. Also, I would work in desensitizing her with the "Look At That" game in closer quarters. As a general rule of thumb I like to desensitize first then correct, just to make sure they know that there is no threat and they're being corrected for behavior, not for reaction to a possible threat.

The fact she calmed down in a muzzle tells me she calmed down because it wasn't as fun as barking without the muzzle, which means it's behavior, not fear. As for the closer quarters, it may be more experience than behavior. These guys are great at BSing so staying a step ahead of them is critical. I have some stories about desensitizing H then mid session realizing he was playing me and it was really behavior-based. This is where knowing your dog and their personalities helps a LOT. If I see H react in close quarters and I see uncomfortable/defense, I desensitize. If I see a**hole behavior, corrections. Just really depends on the signals he's giving me. From here on out you're gonna have a great time with her! Stock up on liquor and don't worry, it's SO worth it as she gets past 18 months. I wouldn't trade my guy for the world, even though I spent a fortune on liquor from 3-18 months.

[Raven]

Just a thought....

Depending upon why she is reacting to strangers as she does, a pop on a prong could--I repeat, could--reinforce a negative association.

[Tripmomma]

Thanks everyone. So after seeing her yesterday Les, and a trainer that was there, both feel I just need to keep up the distractions when she is around people and starts getting aggressive. They want me to keep working on going to populated places and playing with her. She has HUGE play/prey drive and if I engage her when people are around she really kind of forgets to act up. The people become back ground and she doesn't pay them much attention. So I guess I will keep trying that...hopefully in the end I will have a girl that probably doesn't like people, but can learn to ignore them unless I need her to be protective. She is really more of a one family dog I guess, my friends Dutchie is much more friendly and accepting of anyone's attention...which makes him appear like a better dog, but I guess Kitsune is not really incorrect since they aren't supposed to be a breed that is super friendly...right? I hope for a little improvement, but if she never becomes a Golden I will be just fine with that.

[funkyhunky]

I've seen this lots.
Usually created inadvertently by the dog's handler. Dog picks up vibes from handler and acts aggressively, handler gets nervous around people because dog acted aggressively, vicious cycle..... I had this happen with one of my dogs. The dog would be fine with me, but would be "aggressive" towards people when my wife would walk her.
Stay calm, correct the bad behaviour.
If you correct properly this is a pretty easy fix. Don't avoid situations.
dan

[Tripmomma]

Thanks Dan, I do think you are right and that probably is a big part of our issue. I will try to do better myself, I know I do get nervous and tense because I worry about how she will react. It is embarrassing and I also worry if she actually bites someone. I have been getting her out the last few days with toys to play with and I do see a difference in how much attention she pays to strangers. Hopefully it will just keep getting better.

[funkyhunky]

I think when people see a dog in a muzzle people get nervous. It's almost like a signal to people to give bad vibes to the dog. The dog can sense this.
Don't expect your dog to be friendly with everyone. It's your dog, it doesn't have to be friends with everyone. You should really just want it to ignore friendly strangers. People often ask if they can pet my DS or if their dog can "play" with her. I just say "no".
These dogs aren't labs or pit bulls don't expect them to be. If you're calm, your dog will read that and react accordingly. If it doesn't, correct it.
dan

PS My "aggressive" DS is now downright friendly with strangers now...
At the front door she puts on a great show, but we never corrected that. On the street, she's a sweety.

[Tripmomma]

Yeah I see less barking and aggressive behavior out of her when I am playing with her vs when the muzzle is on her. So I think we will ditch that and just keep up the toy work.
I don't mind if she is not a social butterfly, I just want her to not go on the offensive at every single stranger that happens to be within 10 feet of us. Ignoring strangers would be perfect!

I'm going to stay on it and just hope she matures right through this. Thanks again!

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

She will. My guy finally (seemingly magically) recently realized not everyone was a threat... we had 3 people round corners on us suddenly today on our walk and not even a flinch. Just kept moving. Keep up the exposure and if you see something that is triggering a nasty response in her (fear, anxiety, defense), make sure you reward with toy work at the right moment (it's a lot like marker training) and desensitize as needed. If she's just doing it for kicks, that's correctible with OB.

[Tripmomma]

Thanks, I will keep you all posted.

[Tripmomma]

Thought I would come give you a little update.
We are having a lot of success using a toy for distraction...she is still not 100% with strangers, may not ever be, but we have had great trips to home depot, petsmart and the feed store to name a few. It is amazing how her toy drive can pull her focus to where a stranger and I can be standing within 5 feet of each other talking and as long as I am tugging with her not a growl escapes her. I don't trust her if someone would try to pet her, and I have declined anyone that has asked to...but I am feeling hopeful that she may be able to at least tolerate/ignore people in the end. Thanks for the great advice!