demon, spawn of satan, k9 trainer, suggestions?

[cordeliandemon]

okay, so recently i settled on a dog training center a few hours drive away (im wasnt spoilt for choice in the matter). i think ive mentioned it on here before? ive been having trouble training demon on my own due to an extremely unfavorable home environment (where i cant trust people to stay away from my dogs when im not there) and the constaints of ptsd.
ive verified that they dont use any harsh methods (completely reward based) and met with them last week. they have a completely trained personal/family protection dog named chieftain there who is also a dutch shepherd and they assured me they have a thorough understanding of the breed. its a boot camp/boarding scenario the same as with their would be police dogs, but demon is there ONLY for obedience. (he hasnt been especially bad or anything, just trying to invest in his training for his own well being) everything seemed to be going well, we spoke on the phone and i heard it took awhile for him to settle down after i left but theyd been walking him ect and things seemed ok. and said to call again during the week

BUT now ive checked in again a few days later, and im told when theyre walking him and try to correct/redirect his attention he turns on them and attacks. both dog handlers. they say they cant manage as hes so aggressive twards them.
*ULTIMATE SIGH*
im going out to see him on saturday and will reevaluate the situation and talk about it more thoroughly(maybe bring him home, maybe talk about one on one training as they suggested. but im not sure that would work due to the intense stress id be transferring onto demon in such an alien/threatening environment)
i know just about every DS is the spawn of satan during their growing pains, hes turning into a tween now at 7 months and the hormones are kicking in too so im not completely surprised. i was quite hopeful about this place none the less.

it seems like i may not be spending as much on this training course as i had imagined so if any of you have suggestions of things that could help (books, collars, videos, ANYTHING!) id greatly appreciate the advice. his no.1 problems are still cars moving in close proximity to him, bikes coming twards me, people fastly appearing around corners ect without warning (anything that looks like its trying to charge/attack us pretty much) other than the hes a great, great, great goose-bear of a companion.

ive been thinking about possibly investing in an ecollar for him (for the audio and vibrate functions) just to see if it could break his concentration like it did for koda trying to attack horses.
but he has a thing about people messing with his neck/collars too much ever since the first dud trainer with the choke chain (he starts trying to gnaw and nip at your hands and struggles to get away. not outright aggression, just wanting you to stop what youre doing to him). so i would need one with a quick release clasp as apposed to a standard belt buckle type so i could get it on and off him as fast and stress-free as possible. if anyone knows of one like this id LOVE to hear about it!!!
i cant wait to see my not-so-little pup again, ive missed him so much its painful.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

It sounds like he may not like how they're redirecting him or they haven't fully bonded with him yet. I know when my guy went to his breeder for some training, he took 3-7 days just chilling with him, playing with him, and letting him bond to him before he asked for any work from him. Or maybe they're going too long on a walk and he's getting frustrated? I know you mentioned he would do re-directing onto you when he got over tired on walks.

As for the ecollar collar, I would suggest looking into bungee cord collars for the ecollar. They usually aren't sold together, I think Workingdogdrygoods.com offers them as an add onto the ecollars they sell, and I bought one off k9vitaminshop.com (check my spelling of it) recently that's been awesome. H barely feels it and it moves with him to maintain the connection. Plus on and off in a simple slide and super secure; he went rolling and thrashing with it on and it just slid minimally around his neck without moving down.

How have you been correcting/disciplining him up until now?

[cordeliandemon]

bungee cord collars sound perfect, i didnt even know that was a thing thank you!
it appears the problem started on a walk and they had tugged on his leash in some way, ill be asking more about it when i see them on saturday. id imagine they were giving a quick tug to snap him out of something and the situation escalated, since then it seems demon just straight out dosnt like them anymore (and they may be a little scared of him)

i was told the first week was just for him settling in and getting used to the place, as far as i know they hadnt been doing much more than walks ect. demon and i havent had any issues with being mouthy/acting like an ass in quite a while which is great.

for correcting ive read some negative things online about using spray water bottles on dogs but honestly thats the ONLY thing that demons been ok with so far. if hes being a prat or doing something very bad (paying too much attention to a cat, trying to eat something dangerous, trying to get things off the kitchen counter, getting too rough with a visitor) he'll get a spritz of water that usually snaps him right out of it followed by praise/treats when he stops.
for most things now i just have to say a stern "ahh!", "out" or "no!" and 80-90% of the time he'll quit it.
the only side effect to this ive occasionally had is if we're outside and it suddenly starts to rain, at which point he'll look to me like "what did i do wrong?"

[Dutchringgirl]

just read the first sentence, and I dont like what I am hearing. I am against board training, but thats just me. I dont think they are training him the way HE needs to be trained. Id pull him out ASAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gotta run but ill type more later

[Raven]

We've talked about "camps" before, so I won't regurgitate my beliefs about them. Don't have to: you have the proof yourself.

I've never read anything about a spritz being negative----unless it's done in anger/with severe body language/etc., or with hot water, or for EVERYTHING the dog does, or..... There is, however, no reason for a dog, especially a smart one, to associate rain with you giving him a spritz. As long as you keep CALM while you do it and do it only when called for, I'd work with it. It's not going to solve the big picture but can help curb some behaviors that might, in the long run, end up working in your favor. Hope that made sense.

EDIT: A person caused your PTSD. Were cars ever a concern for you afterward, as in being nervous of seeing "the person" in their car, or fearful in some way with a connection to the person pulling up in front of your house, or following you to the store, or........you get the idea.

EDIT: I think I've said this before, but you especially have a special set of circumstances. You're supposed to be showing Demon how to react/interpret the world around him, but things stress you out--and it goes right down the lead. As far as training, you both need training--you as a trainer as well as him as a dog--and you need, somehow, to be part of that training. Ideally, it should be with someone who is equipped to handle your side of the equation, but that's unlikely. We can offer all types of suggestions, but my head keeps coming back around to: how is Demon supposed to figure things out when your signals or you are stressed?

[cordeliandemon]

i thought id said that its pretty much certain ill be taking him home in the morning but maybe i left it out?
ill be withholding any blame until i get the full story. they couldnt have known he would react that way and i had assumed he had gotten over the collar/leash/neck touching problems to a degree where he would work with them, (for a long time hes been relatively fine aslong as youre using quick release collars and leads) but hes clearly relapsed with the leash tug.

i can see a reason for demon making the association between being sprayed/misted with a bottle and being sprayed/misted by the sky, the link being water... its just when he suddenly gets the first drizzle he looks to me before realising its just rain and continuing on. or maybe hes just not a smart puppy? i know the spray bottle isnt going to solve every problem but its a useful tool, im in this for the long haul and we'll figure it out in time.

as for asking specific details about my ptsd i have to say thats somewhat out of line, personally.

either way i cant wait to see my monster in the morning. none of the symptoms or problems will be going away anytime soon, thats the way demon has always known me and it might be the way he'll always know me, its the norm for us so if it hasnt become white noise for him by now then i cant answer your question yet. thank you for your input!

[LyonsFamily]

What are this dog's lines?

When he's reacting to cars, fast moving people, etc. are hackles up?

[cordeliandemon]

Not 100% sure how to answer that but this is his litter http://bloedlijnen.nl/pdfneststamboom.php?ID=4259
(He's the biggest sausage on the far right of the picture) and both his parents are working dogs. His dads pretty mellow and his mum seemed like a live wire when I met her, he seems to have a bit of both.

The hackles go up all the way from head to the base of his tail like a lizards back, the same if he hears someone on the other side of the yard wall ect.

[Dutchringgirl]

it appears the problem started on a walk and they had tugged on his leash in some way, ill be asking more about it when i see them on saturday. id imagine they were giving a quick tug to snap him out of something and the situation escalated,

This is VERY disturbing to me !!!!!!!!!!!!!

As someone who has done alot of Ring Sport training and work, no way with these dogs will just a tug cause a problem, no way. Ive seen many quick tugs and none of them amounted to a dog going up the leash.

the only side effect to this ive occasionally had is if we're outside and it suddenly starts to rain, at which point he'll look to me like "what did i do wrong?"

This is very odd as well. Why would he make the association of spritz bottle with rain? that is a far reach for a dog.


Please tell me you are taking him out of that training place?

[Raven]

I've spritzed a high-drive dog without associating it with rain.

I was asking about a specific detail to try and see if there might be a link between his reactions to certain stimuli and some of your stress triggers, some of which you have been very open about. I'm not sure how the question crossed a line. It wasn't asked out of idle curiosity.

Best wishes as you try to sort things out.

[cordeliandemon]

yes way, as the tug is exactly what happened and ive seen it happen myself when he was younger. theres a first time for everything i suppose.

demon is home safe and sound, as i said before he was about to be collected.
hes been reactive to some things related to his collar/neck and leash since meeting a "trainer" who dragged him around by a choke chain (i mean literally dragged him around by the choker as he ran, fell on him, forced demon to run into poles and walls by the mans sheer stupidity and ended with demon trying to tear his arms to ribbons for it) when he was still very small. i mentioned it in a past post.

ive been working on it for months and have been doing well with reversing the damage in that area so thought he would be ok with these trainers but sadly it wasnt the case. as far as theyre concerned demon is a one woman dog and has no respect for anyone but me, so im the only one who can handle him- their words. he was being walked by a man in a bite suit when i arrived to collect him and everyone agreed it was in all our interests for him to go home.

hes doing fine now, i just put him in his enclosure to chill out for a while and settle back in with a couple pig ears. there was no aggression twards me handling him or his leash (including a light tug or two to get him to settle and leave one of the trainers alone when i arrived) so luckily there dosnt seem to be any change with the progress the two of us have made in that respect. ill be taking it slow for a few days with him. eventually we'll figure out the car aggression.

why does this rain thing seem to be a big deal im confused? its just how it is, hes growing out of it fast. it was merely a passing remark in an effort to lighten the mood. every dogs going to have some puppy quirks

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Daaaaaaaang that's some serious heavy hitter lines. H is a one-person dog, meaning I'm the only one who can get him to not act like an idiot. He's fine working with others he's bonded to and respects but once I show up it's all about me.

You've been working with him on desensitizing him to fast moving objects right? I know you were working with cars a while back after the first trainer fail. It's founds like he's going from prey into defense on the cars/bikes. I would say densitize until you can get him pretty close. It's hard when they hit 7+ months because they turn into dumb dumbs. Those first waves of hormones! Correcting can go too far too fast and positive they'll try to walk all over you. So, I would try this: at home, everything he has to do, he has to earn. Nothing in life is free. Sits for meals, before going out the door, waiting at the door, more OB for playing, etc. Doesn't have to be the same routine every time, just the idea that he has to "earn" what he gets before he gets it. When H gets into his "I'm the boss" moods I make him sit before I throw the ball while playing, then he has to sit and stand, then he has to lay down and stand, then he has to heel... it's less about the action more about the obeying part. If he does not do it, mark it as "no" and withhold the treat/toy/activity (move the toy/treat behind your back). If it's something like heading outside, I turn my back, count to 5, and turn around and do it again. I have a friend who walks away and comes back after 5 seconds - I personally think that's too confusing - but to each their own. Don't be afraid to maintain the line with him - this is where you may have to start to really crack down and not let him get away with stuff. It's a line that is hard to walk but you know Demon best so you'll know when he's doing something as an honest reaction and something as a "I'm being an a**hole". I tend to either replace the a**hole behavior with something else (and really drill that) or just correct. Also, keep things short. You'll find some days Demon gets frustrated easily (especially if he's been corrected) and others he's fine with it. That's when you want super short mini things and know what battles to pick which days.

The reason I was asking about your current corrective methods was because I was trying to see if a prong/ecollar would be a good choice for Demon. I would try working towards a prong collar, but I think you've already explored that option...? Personally, my guy is very soft to me so I can almost use all positive methods. However, when needed he is not a huge fan of the ecollar and if used it has to be turned down super low. He prefers the prong but a collar pop gets through most of the time. Whatever works, works, and that's all that matters. I've seen people use all kinds of wacky/weird things but it works for the dog and that's all that matters. I would hate for you to invest in an ecollar and have it be a dud with Demon. If you do choose that I would suggest renting/buying Michael Ellis' video on ecollars. Also keep up the work you're doing with him on desensitizing him with different collars/leashes; it'll pay off!

[funkyhunky]

I'm sorry.

I don't visit this board to often.

I just read through a nightmare of "demon" threads.

Maybe it's time for the owner of this dogs to admit defeat?
Sounds like way to much dog for an inexperienced owner. End of story.

Sorry,
dan

[Dutchringgirl]

Sooooooooooooooo Glad he is home. If he is growing out of the rain thing, then just let it be. Give him time to chill out. Yes, each dog has a quirk, Sadie has lots LOL

Going back to the ecollar, I would NOT at this point.

For the car agression, can you explain again what he does?

[cordeliandemon]

For cars he just outright dosnt want them near. if he's brought beyond where it's comfortable his hackles go up, puffs his chest out like a rooster and tries to charge them, if he's even closer than that it'll be a lot of snarling, barking and teeth snapping. For the time being I'm just avoiding contact and not bringing him near busy roads ect untill the rest of his training is better. He's gotten a bit ditsy about his recall so were going to start that from scratch.
We'll be moving house soon so hopefully we'll end up in a more stable environment with footpaths. I'm not too worried about any of it, I think we'll be ok it'll just take some time