August Photo of the Month Winner
Image
Theme: Hiking
Pictured: Ten
Submitted by: DebiAndTen
Hiking Love

September Theme is Training
Image
Just registered? Read This.

Attention New Members: If you sign up and don't receive an activation email right away, send an email to Centrop67 at gmail, and I will activate you manually.

Featured Topics
To DS, or not to DS?
What's the buzz on DNA Tests?
A Malaherd?
Submissiveness
This should be read by everyone
How To Select/Research a Breeder
Other brindle breeds


Click Here for the forum Image Facebook page.

New option for posting images: Image


Biting

Jconn
Just Whelped
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: My family just brought home an 8 week old DS puppy a week ago. So far training has been surpringly quick! I've done lots of reading about the breed while my husband was deployed & still continue to learn as much as I can! Love the breed & still am very curious about lots of the names/titles surrounding the DS names online on the breeders websites.

Biting

Post by Jconn » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:56 pm

My STRYKER boy is almost 4 months old, has been pretty good behavior wise except a couple days ago he bit my daughter on the nose..hard, drew blood...its was no good! I wasn't in the room but my husband said she was just sitting with him giving him love as usual & he just bit her. I also was dog sitting my grand dogs overnight (95 lb yellow lab & an 8lb rat-cha) the lab was kind of douchey towards him, doesn't share toys-gets aggressive! Stryker is my 1st DS, & we are so in love with him, & I am hoping the few times he has bitten (3 total, 8yr old son in the arm 2ce & 12 yr old daughter 1ce) it is more a puppy thing not a breed thing...well I know it's a breed thing, but I'm hoping its a correctable thing! & if anyone can help me with the best way to correct him it would be appreciated!! A breeder told me the best 2 ways are putting him down (holding at the neck as another dog would) or jacking him up on 2 or no feet by the scruff...which we have done a couple times...not so much lately Bc of him growing so much. But actually hitting this breed for misbehaving makes them more aggressive. We did the puppy classes (I take him) & we are starting the obedience...so I'm hoping with age & learning more he will grow out of the biting...any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

User avatar
Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5311
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Biting

Post by Dutchringgirl » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:48 pm

He bit three times?? DS are not playfull family dogs, they are protection dogs, children should not be close enough to get bit in the face. I think you need to correct your children more than your dog, its a puppy and a protection dog and not a fun lab that just wants to be your friend.

What was your reasoning in getting a DS? Did you do any research on the breed?

DO not jack him up, its not his fault its your fault for not respecting his space and the biting was telling you to get out of his space.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
ImageImage

User avatar
cordeliandemon
Training Dog
Posts: 278
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:35 am
Tell us about yourself: owner of a male Dutch Shepherd and female Alaskan Malamute
Location: Ireland

Re: Biting

Post by cordeliandemon » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:58 pm

definitely dont pin the dog down and dont scruff him, itll make things ALOT worse (you become the bad guy and then he has to defend himself)
when i got demon he wasnt a big fan of me so i had to build trust over a long period of time by being gentle and rewarding him out the wazoo. if hes being a prat he gets squirted with spray bottle, he hasnt mouthed or tried to bite me in more months than i can remember but i still keep it with me at all times for day to day brattiness. no grabbing scruffs, slapping, taps on noses or forcing him to the ground, ever.
the biting will stop when you have mutual respect and he begins to learn your boundaries (and you learn and respect his)
whats your situation with stryker and your kids interacting? id keep the dog leashed to you or your husband at all times in the house and especially make sure you dont leave the puppy alone with small children or dogs. im sure someone else will give more specific advice, i dont let demon or koda interact with any children so im not the most experienced.


also, ditto what lisa said. theyre not family dogs and i wouldnt trust a ds pup as far as i could throw him when it comes to kids and their grabby nature.
Cordelia -
Demon (dutch shepherd)
Koda (alaskan malamute)
Sidney (collie/springer spaniel)- R.I.P

User avatar
Owned-By-Hendrix
Training Dog
Posts: 938
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:40 am
Tell us about yourself: Dutch Shepherd Owner.

Re: Biting

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:23 pm

First off any of those things, without knowing the dog's personality, can and will make them more handler aggressive. Can you and your children read dog body langauge real well? If not you're asking for disaster. The fact the dog has bitten three times tells me you're not reading his cues, you've now developed negative experiences with kids, and you're walking a dangerous path. These dogs WILL bite if they feel they cannot communicate any other way. Maybe your dog didn't want to be petted any more, maybe he doesn't like love unless he asks for it. Either way I wouldn't trust small kids around the breed without supervision or training. These are not GSDs or Labs.

Now that you've set up the pattern of biting people, you've also set up a pattern of negative experiences with people. At such a young age this is not good. Fixable but not good. Does he growl, get stiff, whale eye, or otherwise become tense while giving him love? He's saying he doesn't want it. If you correct him for communicating you are destroying your bond and creating distrust of humans. What happens if a stranger gets in his space - will he snap and show the same reaction? If a kid does it? Or what if he's had enough of petting or a vet touching him? These experience shape a dog and by correcting him because you didn't read his cues you just taught him to not communicate and bite first because it makes the stimuli stop fast. First off I wouldn't let the kids around the dog unless you or your husband have eyes on them and intervene the second the dog starts saying "enough". Pup must be on a leash at all times. The kids need to learn when to back off too. This isn't a dog problem it's a people problem. As far as correcting goes, I would only correct if the dog goes after the human - if the dog is giving proper signals you as the human and guardian of the dog and kids need to head that and rectify the situation, and not by correcting the dog, unless the dog himself does something wrong. Communicating even with a growl is not wrong. At four months a correction should be a collar pop or removal of reward/dog from stimulus. Unless you have a very hard dog, which at the point it's a different story.

Get a GOOD trainer that is familiar with working dog (sports, LE, MWD, or breed specific) to work with you. Pet trainers don't understand the breed /drives and most working dog trainers can be questionable in methodologies and/or tactics. We are also here to help but there is a lot that we can't do because we are not there to read the situation since we're on the other side of a computer screen.
Kay
(Pepper's Look-A-Like)
(Tyson's Soul Twin)

MultiPurposeK9
Green Dog
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:40 am
Tell us about yourself: Multipurpose trainer

Re: Biting

Post by MultiPurposeK9 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:45 pm

As mentioned above by knowledgable forum members, NEVER, NEVER EVER Pin or scruff any dog let alone a Dutchie, one day they will repay that thoughtless action by coming right up the leash on you. There are so many questions about your post that I really don't understand why you would ever own a Dutch, leave your small children with an unsupervised Dutch and even listen to a trainer who recommended that type of correction. WE DON'T TRAIN DOGS THAT WAY ANYMORE, WE use positive reinforcement and negative punishment. This type of behavior although I didn't witness it can describe behaviors I have seen in alot of herding breeds, even Aussie's and Border Collies, they draw blood as puppies alot, they tend to nip rather than grip and the childs reaction to pulling away turns a nip into something alot worse. Is this fixable, of course, at this age but, are you willing to take the steps to correct and stay consistent in doing so. I am sure any of the experienced members and moderators would be happy to help the dog out.
Roger
Consistency + Repetition = Predictability

User avatar
centrop67
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1853
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:42 pm
Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: Biting

Post by centrop67 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:11 pm

When I first got Radar, I tried using a spray bottle to stop him from jumping up on me. The 1st spray was met with a light growl. The 2nd time, he took the bottle away from me. There was no 3rd try.

The lesson for me was that this breed needed a different approach to training.
MultiPurposeK9 wrote:WE use positive reinforcement and negative punishment.
Just so those terms are clear...

Positive reinforcement is a reward (adding something) like a treat, a toy, or a tug.

Negative punishment is a removal of something, and can be as simple as turning away from the dog or walking out of the room.

Positive punishment is what was suggested to you in the alpha roll or scruff pulling. The spray bottle is also positive punishment (adding punishment), and simply does not work with Radar, and I suppose DS in general.

As for the biting...

1) I think herding dogs in general sometimes use the little nip to show affection or direct persons or animals. This is usually a harmless nip, but can become a problem if the nipee reacts quickly to pull away. Radar does this every now and then to me, and to newcomers to my house. I have to prepare him and them ahead of time, so they don't think it's aggression.

2) The other possibility is it's still a puppy and the mouthiness hasn't worn off, or he's been conditioned to believe it's acceptable behavior.

You need to do "leave it" training and relaxation training as a base for reconditioning this behavior.

Search my posts, I think I detailed the technique I used for relaxation training for Radar.

Good luck. Your dog is special and will require lots of diligence and consistency on your part to become a true member of your family. :wtg:
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

User avatar
cordeliandemon
Training Dog
Posts: 278
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:35 am
Tell us about yourself: owner of a male Dutch Shepherd and female Alaskan Malamute
Location: Ireland

Re: Biting

Post by cordeliandemon » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:05 pm

centrop67 wrote:When I first got Radar, I tried using a spray bottle to stop him from jumping up on me. The 1st spray was met with a light growl. The 2nd time, he took the bottle away from me. There was no 3rd try.

The lesson for me was that this breed needed a different approach to training.
centrop67 wrote:The spray bottle is also positive punishment (adding punishment), and simply does not work with Radar, and I suppose DS in general.
maybe he was so against it because you were both still getting to know eachother? every dogs different of course. in either case its not really fair to say DS as a breed cant be trained with one at all seeing as demons a member of said breed :)
it could be detrimental to prematurely discourage trying something that might just work for their dog if all else fails. there was alot of bloodshed before i worked my way through enough failed methods to get to a spray bottle, i didnt think it would work but its the only thing demon was ok with for a long time.
Cordelia -
Demon (dutch shepherd)
Koda (alaskan malamute)
Sidney (collie/springer spaniel)- R.I.P

Raven
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1608
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:19 am
Tell us about yourself: .

Re: Biting

Post by Raven » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:29 am

I read your post word-for-word, but not the entire thread. My first question to you is: what type of training are doing? Any?

And whoever told you to pin a dog--especially a Dutch shepherd--or act in an aggressive manner toward a dog--especially a Dutch shepherd--is a clueless buffoon who will cause more harm TO ALL, including the dog, by administering such mindless, thoughtless dribble.

My take-away from your post is you're lacking knowledge about effective training and the breed (since you acted upon the incredibly unsound, bad, out-dated advice you were given).

As others have stated, seek out a trainer you can vet out as REPUTABLE with the breed, or at least with high-drive dogs/working dogs--and don't delay.

There are other dynamics at work in your home that really make internet help even less help than a Band-Aid. You can turn this around by immediately getting qualified assistance to address the issues.

Please keep us posted and best wishes.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

Jconn
Just Whelped
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: My family just brought home an 8 week old DS puppy a week ago. So far training has been surpringly quick! I've done lots of reading about the breed while my husband was deployed & still continue to learn as much as I can! Love the breed & still am very curious about lots of the names/titles surrounding the DS names online on the breeders websites.

Re: Biting

Post by Jconn » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:28 am

It was a breeder who imported my puppies father that advised pinning or pulling up on the scruff...I've never used that discipline on Any dog I've owned.
The kids are never unsupervised around him either bc he is a puppy & likes to nip still when they play. Yes it was a researched decision & yes I know what they are bred for, we chose this breed, & he is part of our family & was asking for helpful advice not judgement from everyone who knows everything...
As stated we did our puppy training & now are in obedience class. & we work with a trainer who breeds GS dogs - which I wanted instead of just a trainer who teaches poodles to sit & stay.
I do appreciate the advice on the positive reinforcement & proper way to punish (ignoring/walking away) it was a DS BREEDER that gave me the advice who has been breeding & importing the dutchies for a long time so I listened to her...everyone starts at the beginning...Stryker is my beginning so if you don't have a helpful comment, don't waste your or my time by commenting.

Raven
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1608
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:19 am
Tell us about yourself: .

Re: Biting

Post by Raven » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:53 am

Jconn wrote: A breeder told me the best 2 ways are putting him down (holding at the neck as another dog would) or jacking him up on 2 or no feet by the scruff...which we have done a couple times...not so much lately Bc of him growing so much. But actually hitting this breed for misbehaving makes them more aggressive.
Jconn wrote:It was a breeder who imported my puppies father that advised pinning or pulling up on the scruff...I've never used that discipline on Any dog I've owned.

Jconn wrote: & we work with a trainer who breeds GS dogs - which I wanted instead of just a trainer who teaches poodles to sit & stay.
And what has the trainer recommended?
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

User avatar
Owned-By-Hendrix
Training Dog
Posts: 938
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:40 am
Tell us about yourself: Dutch Shepherd Owner.

Re: Biting

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:29 am

Ah, Battle Ridge K9 correct? You can train a DS with negative methodologies, but with the wrong bloodlines you're asking for trouble. If I recall right, your pup is a Mika and Havoc son, right? That's some powerful bloodlines on Havoc's side and if it's the Mika I'm thinking of that isn't a bad line either; both are ones that can easily become civil if you don't know what you're doing. If I remember correctly you have some handler aggressiveness blood from Havoc's side, which is why you should learn to read your dog's body language and try to avoid pinning and picking up by the scruff for your own safety later in the dog's life. Handler hard dogs are ones that WILL come up the leash at you if frustrated enough, without or with seemingly little warning, so building a relationship of communication and trust first and foremost go a loooooooong way.

My one concern is your husband's "no warning" explanation, or as what you've described to us. If there was no growl, no stiffening, no whale eye, pre-bite (and I use bite as none of us have eyes in your house to determine if it was a bite versus a nip) then you've got a problem. If there was signs then learn to read the signs and stop (remove the kids/stimulus) and redirect the dog. You're coming up on the 6-7 month mark where things get fun and drives and hormones kick in, so you need to learn the warning signs to prevent a nip from becoming a hard bite. I can list of every warning sign a dog has ever displayed, however, that means nothing if your dog doesn't use that exact way to communicate - you must take the dog and its actions as whole into consideration. By learning what your dog is saying, you're also learning when to intervene, when to correct, when to redirect, and when to just walk everyone away from the situation. This is why as pups DS need careful "socialization"/exposure and understanding the mind of the working dog is very important. As you well know, they learn quick, which means one or two negative associations at the wrong time can become permanent or hardwired behaviors in the oddest of ways, which can be a PITA to correct later.

If this was indeed just puppy getting over excited and nipping and not an actual bite, then redirection onto toys is key. Most pups respond to a high pitched yelp, a "No", and handing them the toy. If the pup continues after several redirections, removing the pup or person and letting the pup calm down is good, which is why we recommend to always have the pup tethered to you. If it was a BITE (meaning with actual force, intent, and grip) this is a different story. At 4 months, and not knowing the EXACT happenings up to it, I would air on the side of caution with a "No" and removal of pup and child. I would not correct 1) because you may have missed communication and 2) because it is undeterminable. If there was no sign (a true "dog turns around and bites without stimuli") then I would correct (again, this is why the dog is tethered to you) with a "no" and collar pop/removal. I would remove the pup only if the pup was being a jerk - if it were stressed I would proceed with caution because I do not want it to think, "gee, I get stressed, bite, get a no but the thing that stressed me went away" but I also do not want to cause more stress to the pup by keeping the object of stress near it. You'll become more aware of the chain of events as the pup grows and does more OB; they're bright little raptors that will suddenly realize putting up with something a wee bit negative isn't a bad price to pay for the end goal, or they'll try to skip the middle to get to the end. Again, consulting with your trainer should override any advice on this forum, unless you feel the trainer's methodologies are not sound.

These dogs are also masters at reading YOUR body language, so be mindful of how you and your children communicate to the dog. If you become nervous, you'll see the dog becomes nervous. If the kids get scared then the dog gets edgy. Everything is open communication and these guys take silent notes on how you react and will react accordingly (usually with aggression as they are a protection breed) as they learn the rules.

In the future, be mindful that when you say "bite" and "child" on this forum, many will assume the worst because we have experienced the worst. So if we jump to conclusions, forgive us, as we only try to look out for not only your safety but also the safety of the dog. We are not in your house with you to see what a bite is defined as; a bite to you may be a nip to some, or a bite to some may be a nip to you. We all here love the breed, many work in rescue/sports and have seen some truly horrible "gone wrong" cases, and none of us want you or your family to be hurt. I personally have seen a dog maul a child because of lack of understanding, and do not wish for anyone anywhere to undergo that experience.
Kay
(Pepper's Look-A-Like)
(Tyson's Soul Twin)

Jconn
Just Whelped
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: My family just brought home an 8 week old DS puppy a week ago. So far training has been surpringly quick! I've done lots of reading about the breed while my husband was deployed & still continue to learn as much as I can! Love the breed & still am very curious about lots of the names/titles surrounding the DS names online on the breeders websites.

Re: Biting

Post by Jconn » Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:15 pm

Yes that's where I got him but that's not the breeder that suggested that type of discipline. I appreciate the great info!! & will try some different things w him...he is a great dog & will be fine, I think really it may have been a combo of ny Grand-dogs/being a puppy/being just tired - Bc it happened very soon after the other dogs had left...I just got nervous about it, especially Bc i wasn't there to actually see what had happened-my husband was.
I get it though, no one really knows all the energy, research, time we have put into deciding on this breed, but being our 1st I was just looking for helpful advice & I got it from some of you!! I know there are too many people that get dogs/puppies without any research & they end up homeless, or in a shelter & it's very sad...STRYKER is our family & that is not an option, teaching/training of each of us is the solution & any outside tips are always appreciated!

User avatar
Stacy_R
Training Dog
Posts: 879
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:11 am
Tell us about yourself: 3 dogs and graying hair thanks primarily to Tyson...
Location: Carolinas

Re: Biting

Post by Stacy_R » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:22 pm

Owned-By-Hendrix wrote: These dogs are also masters at reading YOUR body language, so be mindful of how you and your children communicate to the dog.
I'm just going to jump in here ...

Kids will be kids...they stare, they hug, they pester, they have funky energy and make weird noises... Not because they are evil, but because they are kids.

1. Staring - Staring at any dog is pressure and an invasion of their space and is seen as a threat/challenge by the dog.

2. Hugging - no. just no.

3. Pestering - following, continuing to pet when the dog doesn't want it, etc.

4. Not all dogs can learn to love the crazy energy kids have and the squeals, yells, etc. Understand that sometimes all of the chaos kids bring can amp dogs up. Stryker may never embrace it, he may just tolerate it.

99% of dog bites are from the family dog "who never, ever did anything like this ever...we just don't understand it!!" Why? Because people don't understand (or understand, but ignore) their dog's signals. Stryker may be a part of your family, but he may never be the huggy, cuddly, kid's BFF dog.

3 bites to your children tells me that your children (and perhaps your husband as well since they happened in his presence) need to be educated on body language (this is not judgement..it just is). Body language can be subtle (simply turning away) or outright (lip curl and growl). Taking your dog to training is great, but all the dog training in the world won't help if you, your husband, and your kids don't understand what your dog is trying to tell them. As Kira said, know dog body language and know it well. The pattern has already been established in the dog's mind that it is the bite that works, not other signals, so you're working out of a hole here because he will likely start defaulting to the bite. Management and training (dog, kids, husband) will be your life for quite some time.

I also want to reiterate what Michael said about training terms...

A lot of people talk about positive and negative reinforcement, but they use those terms incorrectly. Positive and negative don’t mean good and bad when talking about reinforcement and punishment.

Here is how they work:

There are 2 types of reinforcement: Positive and Negative (think of it in terms of math…positive is adding to, negative is taking away)

1. Positive reinforcement (adding to) is basically adding something that the animal wants or sees as high value to increase the likelihood of the desired behavior reoccurring. Example: Giving a treat when your dog sits, stays, comes, etc, etc.

2. Negative reinforcement (taking away) is when you remove an aversive to increase the likelihood that the desired behavior will reoccur. Example: Training your dog to come by using a leash: You tug on the leash creating pressure (aversive) but as soon as the dog takes a step forward, the leash is slacked and pressure (aversive) is taken away.

There are also two types of punishment: Positive and negative (again, thinking in math terms…positive is adding to, negative is taking away)

1. Positive punishment – adding something aversive (unpleasant) to decrease the likelihood that the undesired behavior will happen again. There are 2 types of positive punishment:
  • a. Verbal reprimand (NO! AHHH! STOP THAT!, etc) and
    b. physical punisher (leash correction, hitting, knee in chest, pinch collar, shock collar, etc).


2. Negative punishment – removing something the dog wants so that you decrease the likelihood that the undesired behavior will happen again. There are 2 types of negative punishment:
  • a. Time out - removal of all attention and put in crate or on place (but be careful here, because you always want your dog to see the crate and place as safe zones and desirable places),
    b. Response cost – removal of toy or play time or initial attention. Turning away from a dog if he jumps on you would fit here…he is looking for attention and by removing it until he can keep all 4 paws on the floor, you are using a negative punisher.



Final thought: As Kira stated, Stryker's bloodlines (hard-hitting, super intense) make him a genetically loaded gun, please do not consult other breeders who may not know the dog's blood/how it responds. Your dog's mom has pretty much all Rocky blood, which is extremely dominant and flammable under pressure. Not only will there be a lot of drive, but a lot of confidence and people aggression can develop from that with wrong handling. Right handling you get a strong, confident, nice pup who is outgoing. Wrong moves you get a dog will to go after someone. Plus all have intense, crushing bites. This line is genetically programmed to cause damage. IMHO, training (both for Stryker and for all of you), should be done with the breeder you purchased him from to get the best results.
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org

MultiPurposeK9
Green Dog
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:40 am
Tell us about yourself: Multipurpose trainer

Re: Biting

Post by MultiPurposeK9 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:33 pm

Ok...............so I am willing to help you as best as I can through this forum. I have a few questions to start with as I would any client whose K9 I would train in person.
What made you want a DS. In your intro you mentioned you did research while your husband was deployed? He didn't happen to see a MWD and that got the ball rolling.
In looking to Battle Ridge, what attracted you to that breeding. You mentioned in your intro that you still are curious about titles. Did you know at the time what you were buying in bloodlines? What made you choose M over F ?
In your research I am sure you read that DS are a "working breed" and need something to do other than frustrate you. Do you know what you want to do, Agility, Tracking. Nosework, Rally, Obedience? Please don't tell me you want to do any type of bite work. Lastly, what breeds of dogs have you owned in your life? Have you participated in any dog related activities other than OB classes, CGC, Therapy or the above mentioned dog sports ?
Lastly, I know you were kind of offended by some of the members response including mine to your original post. Please don't take it personally. These members care greatly about this breed. they are their passion . I am quite confident that they want nothing more than to see another great example of the breed they care so much about to succeed and you become the handler that you want to be. There are going to be bumps in the road, tears, hair pulling . a little more blood { hopefully not} muttering under your breath and some OK that's enough for the day. We have all be through this. Stay the course............be confident, as your puppy learns from his mistakes, learn from yours. HAVE FUN, you are in a very select group.
Roger
Consistency + Repetition = Predictability

User avatar
Owned-By-Hendrix
Training Dog
Posts: 938
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:40 am
Tell us about yourself: Dutch Shepherd Owner.

Re: Biting

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:48 pm

Adding to the wonderful post Stacy just posted, genetically speaking there's a lot we can tell you from the bloodlines alone; however, this does not mean it will be expressed or obvious in the pup. Since you have kids you know genetics work in funny ways. Sometimes kids come out with blue eyes and blonde hair when the parents are brunette, sometimes they look exactly like a relative rather than you, sometimes they have disorders, and sometimes they are exactly like you. Genetically speaking, it's a numbers game just like the lottery. The reason why we're touching on genetics is because while it's a numbers game, sometimes you stack the deck with a lot of serious blood to make certain traits more likely to emerge. Sometimes certain genes are stronger than others and are expressed as traits faithfully throughout the line. Rocky blood is very strong and very desirable for its flammability, it's aggression, and it's hardness and bite. Same with Arko for speed and power, and Tommy for overall character and hardness, and others. We are telling you this info not to scare you or try to say "your dog is genetically programmed for severe aggression" but rather give you the tools to understand that genetically it's a possibility and certain experiences/imprinting can bring out traits, reduce traits, or harness traits. DS are the sum of their experiences, training, and genetics in equal parts more so than any other breed. Understanding the bloodlines is like having a rough idea of the road map ahead, and while the road may be completely different once you start on your journey, it's still beneficially in having it as a sketch. Again, we're not there to see the pup, work with the pup, or see it growing up. It could be a "genetic dud" meaning it has none of those traits it carries in its blood and never will. Or it could develop with certain experience or training part or all of the traits. As of now it's an experience game. We are just trying to give you the information so you can best train and work with your pup. It is all well and good you are dedicated to the pup but in some aspects you may realize that knowing the traits that lies within your pup helps with understanding the why behind some of his actions as some of it may be genetically ingrained/brought out.
Kay
(Pepper's Look-A-Like)
(Tyson's Soul Twin)

Raven
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1608
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:19 am
Tell us about yourself: .

Re: Biting

Post by Raven » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:30 pm

Raven wrote: Jconn wrote:
A breeder told me the best 2 ways are putting him down (holding at the neck as another dog would) or jacking him up on 2 or no feet by the scruff...which we have done a couple times...not so much lately Bc of him growing so much. But actually hitting this breed for misbehaving makes them more aggressive.



Jconn wrote:
It was a breeder who imported my puppies father that advised pinning or pulling up on the scruff...I've never used that discipline on Any dog I've owned.





Jconn wrote:
& we work with a trainer who breeds GS dogs - which I wanted instead of just a trainer who teaches poodles to sit & stay.



And what has the trainer recommended?

Obviously, you don't have to, but I sincerely hope you reply to what I posted. Here are the reasons:

1) In the first two quotes, there's a discrepancy. It may help explain his behavior...especially when considering what other members subsequently took the time to explain about his bloodlines.

2) It's important to know how the trainer you sought out is addressing the issues (though there seems a disconnect somewhere since you posted about it here).

3) It doesn't feel like we have the whole story, so of course there'll be questions. Without knowing the what's going on on the other side of computer, no one can help (as much as anyone can via the internet).

On a side note, DSs are very mouthy dogs--mouthing is different than biting or nipping. The title of your post and your description of the events sound like bites. So for the safety of people and your dog, please try to reply to our questions as you have time, and listen to the e-help members try to give. Even in what is called judgment, there is often truth. You decided to own a high-powered dog, so you'll need to learn quickly and grow thick skin.

And while it's been mentioned in many other threads, it hasn't here, so I'll say it.

Dogs require fairness, but ESPECIALLY the DS. In this way, along with consistency, respect will be developed. You're going to have to work extra-extra hard with his lines and your lack of experience--and nothing is a quick fix--so you'll need to learn fast and you'll make mistakes along the way (who doesn't?) but Stryker is an individual and you'll need to observe him and get to know him as such. Only you can do that. We can't.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

User avatar
centrop67
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1853
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:42 pm
Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: Biting

Post by centrop67 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:44 pm

cordeliandemon wrote: maybe he was so against it because you were both still getting to know eachother? every dogs different of course. in either case its not really fair to say DS as a breed cant be trained with one at all seeing as demons a member of said breed :)
it could be detrimental to prematurely discourage trying something that might just work for their dog if all else fails. there was alot of bloodshed before i worked my way through enough failed methods to get to a spray bottle, i didnt think it would work but its the only thing demon was ok with for a long time.
Cordelia, I am sorry I generalized the breed with my spray bottle comment, and I am very happy you found the right method for peace with your DS. It is why I said "I suppose." I too had to try several methods, and I applaud your perseverance.

Stacy, thanks for further clarifying B.F. Skinner's operant conditioning. It's amazing how much we have to learn when we bring these animals into our lives. I wish I had the knowledge long before I met Radar.

Jconn, there's a lot of information on this forum. I read all the posts in the behavior section, sought outside sources of information in books, videos, and websites, and hired a private trainer. With all that, I am still learning each day. Again, good luck. BTW: a signature sure could go a long way to help us members identify you.
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

User avatar
Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5311
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Biting

Post by Dutchringgirl » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:23 pm

for now, I would keep the kids away. Let him learn the ropes and you learn how to handle him and him you. I know its a fluffy puppy, but the kids needs to learn that this is not a fluffy "family " dog. My Sadie does not like hugs, and normal puppy play stuff, she is 4 and still dosnt and never will, that is her. My Thalie, you can do anything to her, hug, use her as a pillow, kiss her nose at any time day or night and she will never growl, they are the same breed but polar opposites in temperament. he may never like hugs, but that will be seen as he grows.

keep him on a leash tied to you or hubby and I would have a harness on him at all times in case you need to grab him out of a situation you can just pick him up. keep him on a leash for a long time until he is consistent in his behavior.

You may not see our responses as what you wanted to hear, but we care about the breeds and yes, we do know ALOT. That is why you came here, isnt it? Do you want to go somewhere where they dont now everything?

So yes, we are going to comment to help you, your dog and your family thrive, you may not like how we word it but we do want to help.

We have seen many of these dogs in homes where the owners have no idea what they have, so we need to question. Your dog bit many times, bit children, so yes, we may be upset with you but we do want to help.

This is not a family dog, so we do want to know why you decided on this breed, do you want to do SAR, nosework? what are your plans for this dog?
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
ImageImage

k9lexi
Green Dog
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:23 am
Tell us about yourself: Over the past 25 years I shared my life with a Rott, two Akitas, and a Shepherd/Husky mix. I now have my first Dutch Shepherd. Lexi was born in early September 2014. She is great in so many different ways but I could use advice from some been there done that DS owners.

Re: Biting

Post by k9lexi » Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:03 am

I'm on my first DS too! I had lots of issues 80% of the time for many long months, trying many different suggestions. Now at 11 months I have very few problems occasionally. I stuck with training, got lots of advice and when something didn't work I'd try something else . She just keeps getting better as she gets older. By the time she hits two years old she just might be the most awesome dog ever ;) one big turning point along our journey was when she was six months old we left the other dogs at home and just took Lexi camping spending a long weekend focused on her and she on us, we'll we really started bonding ... she will now even sit there and tolerate me hugging and kissing her. Six months ago she would have no part of it ... progress ;)

User avatar
Stacy_R
Training Dog
Posts: 879
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:11 am
Tell us about yourself: 3 dogs and graying hair thanks primarily to Tyson...
Location: Carolinas

Re: Biting

Post by Stacy_R » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:10 pm

k9lexi wrote:she will now even sit there and tolerate me hugging and kissing her. Six months ago she would have no part of it ... progress ;)
If she is just "tolerating" it, please stop...you're asking for trouble. If she doesn't like it - and most dogs don't - it won't end well.

We get stories like this all-the-time in rescue:

"Can you please take my dog? She/He is a great dog, but s/he bit my [wife, daughter, son, etc] out of nowhere. They were just hugging him/her like they always do and the dog bit. We love our dog, but just can't have it in our home anymore because we don't trust him/her."

Please watch this video and reconsider making your dog "tolerate" hugging and kissing her. Please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABDrhNBwdpk
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org

Post Reply