Suspicious and insecure behavior

[vitorlinares]

Hello everyone,

i'm from Brazil and new on the forum.
I've been looking for more information and knowledge about the breed in Brazil, but we have just 3 or 4 breeders, with no more then 10 or 15 litters. It means that the knowledge about the breed here is very limited, so i decide to go out and find by myself more information and found the forum.
So now my big question about my Dutch is:
Since he comes to my home, he presents a very suspicious and some times insecure behavior with the most unthinkable things.
A pratical example, if a broom fall, he jumps as far as he can from the broom and start a barking crisis from that moment until the broom up and run from him.
The thing is, brooms don't up and even less run alone.
This behavior reflects on his performance on protection training.
We can notice that he's Hunt Drive is very low, he doesn't demonstrate interest in the equipment, he put her focus on the trainer. In some moments it's good, but the quality of his bite is decreasing, because he only bites in Aggression, never in hunt.
Someone have already experience this insecure behavior?
There's some training method that i can apply to suppress or even help him to grow in this aspect?

[Dutchringgirl]

Do you have any pictures of him? He does sound very insecure. My sadie is very insecure as well but has grown out of much of it now, she is 5.5 years. I think many would jump if a broom fell as well. He may have been sniffing around it and knocked it over on himself.

where did he come from? breeder? rescue? Another home? My thalie has a low Prey ( hunt) drive, its ok, some have different levels of drive.

Getting him used to the world is the best thing. let him check things out, look, sniff. You dont want to supress anything as he just may be insecure and may not grow fully out of it depending on why he is insecure.

My saide will always be somewhat insecure, thats just her and I let her go through life learning every day.

You be the strong one in the house, dont make a fuss if he gets scared of something, dont say " its okay" or stroke him. let him figure it out for himself. Dont act surprised, or worried, if you are, just keep it hidden from him, look at him to make sure he didnt hurt himself in a calm strong manner. If he looks worried, ignore him

[vitorlinares]

Thank you so much by the tips.
I tried some times to force him to walk over the object that is causing the problem, but i saw that we are losing with this, so i've stoped.
He came from a breeder, his father is from Paolo Picarelo's breed and the mom i don't have the track because the pedigree doesn't arrived yet.
I will change my behavior when he get worried about something as you said and check if we have some improvement.
Some trainers told me to give food to him over some objects and things that he's scared about and let him figure out how to manage the situation, do you think that it's a good idea?
Attached his pictures.

[Dutchringgirl]

Dont force them, they will turn on you. I know many people use food, I like toys better but what ever works.

What do you want him to go over? What are some things that he is afraid of or wont do?

[vitorlinares]

He's very secure with people that he already know, strange people only if i introduce to him, and is secure with our other dogs and cats.
But he's very insecure with almost everything else that moves or make noise.
A short list of things that is more hard to him to deal with:
- Plastic bags (specially if it flies with the wind)
- Brooms
- Soda Can
- Plastic Bottles
- Our garden furniture, specially the metal ones, that make noise when moves

It's hard to be specific, because everything that is new or moves in some way scares him.
A perfect example is with Plastic Bottles, if a plastic bottle rolls on the floor or falls he bark like crazy, if i took that same plastic bottle from the ground and play with him like a tug, he bites the bottle without any fear, but if i turn to drop the bottle on the floor he panic again.
My perception is,whatever is the thing, he feels safe if it's in my hand, but only in my hand, if some stranger offer him the same thing as a tug, he bark and don't bite.
My trainer doesn't really understand this behavior, because in some times he demonstrate balance and strenght, in others he's insecure and loses the performance in the exactly same situation, and it reflects not only in his training but in his routine in home.

And i don't know if it's related but since the insecure behavior increased, the retrieve falls a lot, at this time he don't bring back anything more, not even i use the Hier. He just take the toy lies down and put the claws over the toy, into a possession gesture and it's over to him.

[Dutchringgirl]

Ok, It seems as if he was never exposed to normal life. I would leave some stuff around, maybe one at a time. Have a bag hanging out on the floor. you are to ignore the bag and him, maybe put some food next to it, have him eat a little by stuff he is afraid of. When the bag is okay, put a bottle on the floor, let him check it out too.

If its in your hand, you are showing him its fine, so he is fine, he needs to learn by himself that its fine with out you. One by one, leave stuff around on the floor for him to get used to.

The barking at strangers is normal, they are protection dogs.

He is not allowed to posess anything. If he holds the toy, you are to get it back, see if you can give him food in exchange for the toy, but he is not allowed to keep things from you.

Make retrieving super fun and exciting. Have two toys, when he brings one back, have the other toy ready to play with and be super fun.

[vitorlinares]

Thank you very much.
I will try this from today until the weekend and return with the results.
I really appreciate your help, thank you.

[Dutchringgirl]

keep us posted !

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I only can add to Lisa's good advice.

If he doesn't eat the food next to the bag, put it far from the bag. Very far. If he eats, praise him (if he responds to praise - if not, don't). Don't interact with him. Then move the food closer. The closer it gets the slower he should approach and eat, meaning, the more uncomfortable he is. Work slowly. Maybe one day there's a pile of treats 5 - 7 times during the day with a bag in one room, and he will eat the food 3 meters from the bag. Praise. Ignore the bag. Next day try 2.75 meters. Then the next day 2.50 meters. Once you get next to the bag, quietly encourage any investigation by the pup. If he wants to run away, that's fine. If he gets closer with praise, praise him. If he gets closer with food, lure him with food and feed him next to it. Once he is fine with that, start slowly making it move. Start small - maybe touch it, then pull it a millimeter, then a centimeter, then a few centimeters...

If you have a friend he likes, maybe try playing with an empty soda can on grass, sitting down (that way if it drops it's not making a loud noise). Toss it back and forth, make a big show of having fun. Ignore him. If he comes up to see what you're doing, ignore him. If he starts to try to grab it, encourage it, and let him. You can also play to see if building frustration (keeping the object away from him) gives him the drive to overcome his fear (when he wants the object) enough to take it and play with it.

Go with whichever has him making progress. He'll show you what he likes as you work with him.

[vitorlinares]

Hi guys,

Yesterday we reach a big goal.
I followed the Lisa tip of give him food or toys over the things that he is afraid about, and for this i used some garden furniture pieces and a very thin paper box.
I dropped the food all over the furniture and put some food inside the box, at the first moment he put himself in a very anxious mode, he starts to jump and run around the furniture and the box and after some two or three turns around, he decided to step forward and check the food, at this moment i went away from him and let he figure out how to get the food by himself.
when i went away, he immediately starts the bark, i ignored him and went to do other things in the yard.
after 10 minutes of bark, he tried to sniff the box, and got some food that I dropped outside the box... in this moment I felt that he got the courage he needs.
in less then 2 minutes he put the head inside the box and grab the food out.
5 minutes later the box became a toy and 2 minutes later the box was turned into small pieces of paper.
today i will mantain the paper box and add the plastic bags.
with the furniture i think that we will need more time, i don't know if its because the size of the furniture is bigger then he and it intimidates him, but the furniture is a problem to him yet...
But if there is something that he taught me in this 1 year is that we need to go forward step by step.

I will try the approximation technique with food in addition, to check if he got more comfortable to get closer to the bags and report the advance.
Tonight i will try the game with the soda can to.

Thanks again and again for the help.

[vitorlinares]

Hello guys,

I filmed our morning training today to show you the Anubis evolution and his behavior.



As you can see, he started very well, grabbing the plastic bags even before i put the food over, then i've decided to add the broom to the equation.
As soon as i put the broom over the other things, he feels uncomfortable but keep eating the food but just for a few seconds, then he runs to me.
When i ignored him he came back to the broom and starts the bark.
I've tried the approximation technique with food, and he came closer slowly and suspicious, and as soon as the food on my hand ends, he goes away.
when he got some more courage he starts to eat near of the broom, and then i've started to move the broom just a little and it's enough to him to goes away again.

With the toy the results are faster, and i think, better then with the food, at the end of the game he was steping over the broom and the plastics.
During the game with the toy, at the first moments when i grab him over the plastics, he releases the toy and go away, but i feel that at the end, when his drive is increasing he doesn't release the toy anymore, but i could see in her eyes that he wasn't comfortable with that situation.
Did i used the toy in the right manner? or i've pushed him to much?

[MultiPurposeK9]

So we can all better learn could you explain exactly what method you are using and who you might have learned it from. It is an amazing piece of video on training a Hollandse Herder. The way you control the drives and really the absolute control you have while seemingly effortlessly taking the dog progressively through environmental pressure is truly a work of art. This dogs evolution through your methods of operant conditioning left me speechless.

[centrop67]

I believe he was counter-conditioning the dog's fear of inanimate objects by tossing food around the objects. It may not have been a perfect method, but it sounds like he's making progress with a fearful dog.

Roger, IM me if you want, and we can discuss some alternative methods. Thanks. {edited to make it clear this was meant for Roger}

[vitorlinares]

Hello Everyone,

@Roger,
I'm really glad about the feedback.
Anubis is a very hungry dog, so i used the food to incentivate him to come closer to the things that he's afraid about and eat close to it. My trainer tried this when he was younger, but the result wasn't so positive, i think because he didn't grew up the necessary to at that time. At the first day he was very anxious and fearful and i didn't used the broom, because i know that the broom is like a monster to him, so we started slowly only with things smaller than him and that he could grab easily.
The second day is on the video, as soon as I was put the things on the ground he started to play with things that he never played before, like the plastic bags, and when he was comfortable with the situation and eating, I put the broom to push him a little more and, as you could see in the video, the food wasn't enough to stimulate him to go over the broom.
At this moment i decided to bring the toy and play with him over the food and the other things, specially the broom.
If you read the history of the post, you will see that he's secure when he's biting, even if the object that i offer to him is something that in another moment he's is afraid about.
So i started playing with him trying to transfer the secure that he feels when he's biting to the rest of the situation.
I don't know if this method have a specific name or history because this is my first training job and my very first work dog.
But i'm glad to know that i'm going in the right path or close to it.

@Michael,
{Edited}
Sorry about the misundertanding.
Thank you

PS: Sorry about the bad english.

[centrop67]

I watched the video closely through my completely novice eyes, and I thought I saw counter-conditioning with food and fun.

But, I think back to the counter conditioning I did with a trainer (and Radar), and I realize there is more to it. I have also conversed with MultipurposeK9 offline, and he has convinced me that there are mistakes in the video.

All of the counter conditioning I did with Radar included everything he told me.

Training should be on a leash, where the dog is under control at all times.

The training should be in small steps. One fearful object at a time until that is mastered, and then you can combine more.

Amping up the dog's drive by popping the tug is not the right thing to do when counter conditioning fear.

Mastering basic obedience, and understanding the dog's body language are a key foundation to any training.

Finally, patience is important. There is no short cut for training a dog correctly.

[vitorlinares]

Michael and MultiPurposeK9,

Thanks for the help and patience.
The objective of use one object at time until it's mastered by him is clear to me.
But i have a doubt about the leash.
If i use the leash and obedience commands, i won't force him over the objects? Is this the ideia?
The doubt is not about the effectiveness of the method, but about what i really need to do, ok?

Thanks again.

[Dutchringgirl]

I would not force him over any objects, let him figure it out. If you force him and push him he may come back on you. What will you be doing with him as a job that he will encounter brooms bottles and such? If he is just your companion, then leave the objects around the house and yard and let him figure them out himself.

If you do training, train with the object in view and keep his attention on you so he learns to ignore outside distractions. That is where "look" comes into play.

[vitorlinares]

Thanks for clarify Lisa,

I will try this.
We are training for guard and protection, and started training for mondio, but not for big competitions just for fun.
But the big problem about the fear of these objects is that he's becoming a stressed dog. We reach a point that we need to remove our furniture and all other things from the yard to allow him to have a little more comfortable time when he is in home, because if we leave a sofa, or even a broom in the yard, he passes all day barking and running around the object and, at some point, the stress went in a so high level that he turned against anyone who goes out, even if we are trying to help him
I will try everything you, Michael and MultipurposeK9 said and keep you posted.
Thanks for the help again.

Regards,
Vitor Linares

[Dutchringgirl]

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I did Ring Sport for years for fun and competitions. We trained for the dogs to ignore everything. We would first have solid Obedience and a strong LOOK. We would walk around the field and would have stuff that the dog didnt like but the dog had to look at us in a tight heal always, we would have a tug in hand flopping as to keep the dogs attention. When we walked by something and the dog looked a the thing we would do an about face to keep the dogs attention on us and then big fun reward.

So lets say the bottle is the scary thing, have him in a heel on leash, walk and have him super focused on you, walk by the scary thing and he is to be looking at you and you have a tug or what ever he really likes, then walk by it, if he evern glances at it, about face..........when his attention goes back to you and the toy, reward and make it fun. Do that a gazillion times.

Is his run area free of stuff? Is it the furniture in the house?

[vitorlinares]

Nice, i will try the Heel with a broom in the path.

His run is free of stuff.
The furniture was out in the yard, we uses to party with friends and have a lot barbecues even just for me and my wife, and for this we had a lot of garden furniture, but since he started this behavior we sold all the furniture and try to clear all the yard to end with the problem for him.
The problem starts with the furniture and when we sold all, the problem was transfered to the brooms, and the other little things that he can found on the yard. Last week he started a problem with the balcony that we have near the grill. The problem is that the balcony is made of bricks and marble, it's not made to be movable, so we can't remove it from the yard just to make the fear goes away.

Sometimes I can't believe that he is scared about some things like the balcony. We have 6 pomeranians, and they are fearless than him, with almost everything. Sometimes he can be unbelievable.

The weirdest thing is that he doesn't have this behavior with the furniture that is inside the house.
Actually he loves the couch of the living room.