Combining Kibbles and Raw...

[Southernmost Dutch]

Hi Everyone,

New guy here...I'm getting my first DS in twelve days. I've raised and trained other large breeds and now want to take it to another level with a DS. I've used Innova in the past and am planning on supplementing the same this go around with raw meat (beef, chicken, fish). I've never used raw meats before, so any stories, pit falls, or experiences with the breed while mixing kibble/raw food would be most appreciated.

I'm just trying to be the best dad I can be...

Thanks,
Tony

[Sugars Mom]

I haven't taken the leap but lots of member here have. There are lots of things already posted in the feeding section about this, so have a read through and hopefully you'll get your answers.

[Southernmost Dutch]

Thanks Sue,

I read everyone one of them in their entirety and really didn't find what I was looking for. I read a lot of I do this, I do that, or I think raw is "icky." Nothing in particular to the breed as to specific types of boned meat people have run amuck with, of course no cooked bones or major long bones, but more of what has gone good or bad with their particular DS. I know certain fish to stay away from because of mercury, but what fish on that list (if any) have people had a bad experience with etc...

My breeder (CherCar) has given some advice, the internet some general advice, and now I was looking for actual owner's experiences/advice. In particular their opinions to the ratio of innards to meat, problem bones other than the obvious, and any ideas (other than extra freezers for storage or freeze drying for travel) as to stream lining of the process that has worked for them. If you could find those answers in any of the previous posts I'd be happy to take your direction.

Kind regards,
Tony

[Dutchringgirl]

Hi Tony!

I had joined the yahoo raw feeding group and learned alot from there. There is a formula for calculating how much a day they should eat and ratio of bone etc, but I dont thave that at the top of my head. But again, that depends on the dog. Sadie is young and full of spit and vinegar so she gets more than Thalie but they weigh about the same.

Once I got my head around the feeding, it is really simple. Yes its icky but its worth it. I dont have alot of freezer space so I go to the grocery store about twice a week, I also have two little kids and they eat as much as the dogs. I look for what is on sale or a good price, and stock up as much as I can. You dont have to stay on a strict schedule of "today I must feed this" tomorrow I must feed that" but as long as you get in some liver and bones your ok. I get chicken gizzards and livers, but I dont feed them too often so their poop dosnt get runny. I find that big slap of pork on the bone is usually in expensive. I have two DS and they just love it! They dont like to wait while I cut up the pieces for them. I do use a scale for the feedings since so I can keep their weight steady but I can eye their waist and get a good idea too. I dont travel with them so for that I cant really tell you anything. Its pretty straight forward, really.

I hope that helps some, again, check out the yahoo raw feeding groups.

[Southernmost Dutch]

Lisa,

Thanks so much, I'll check it now. I'm not new to working dogs, but rather the DS and raw feeding. It's crunch time as my DS will be arriving soon. I'm trying to absorb as much knowledge about raw feeding as possible prior his arrival. Thank you especially for the diarrhea heads up on gizzards/livers if over done lol...haven't heard or read about that yet. Those gems are priceless.

[GSDNanny]

I've fed a combo diet for nearly 10 years now, consisting of venison and kibble, not together, alternating days. A large hunting club gives me their kill remains during the season, normally 80-90 carcasses and free of course. Toward the end of the season, they usually just take the backstraps and I get full leg quarters, necks, etc. And yes, that is a heck of a lot to process so during that time, it looks pretty barbaric around here on processing/packaging day! I do it all myself by the way; have 3 large deep freezers. I save plastic grocery bags year long, double them, stuff with the meat/bones and freeze. I've found that regular garbage bags get holes too easy; lawn bags are too big.

I feed all meaty bones. Some people say to stay aware from the ribs. I feed it. So far so good. Doesnt get much better than all natural, hormone/ preservative free meat!!

I have found out the hard way to freeze the meat first before feeding for a few weeks to eliminate bacteria. It's always tempting when I drive up with four large ice chests overflowing and the dogs can just smell it but I dont feed before freezing now.

The dogs get kibble on in between days. I remove the bones the following day and discard because they do become dried out and brittle.

Oh and fair warning, if you do this, check your freezers often. Had one go out and didnt know it. Yeh, not a pretty sight or SMELL!!!

[Lauren]

Hmm. I would never feed them both in the same day because the kibble takes longer to digest and the bacteria in the meat could then cause problems..

But mine all love and do well on rabbit~every part. Pork can make them gassy. chicken backs and thighs are great for everyone (I don't know how old your new addition will be, but i switched mine both to raw the day I got them and they never looked back. So, 7.5 weeks and 6 weeks). Chicken necks will get hocked back up if a very young pup swallows instead of chews.

To much tripe Can give diarrhea but too much fish always does. Also liver. Beef kidney and Tripe linger on your hands no matter how much you wash them.

They ALL love raw eggs in the shell. It is so much fun to watch them figure them out. Salmon oil is great, but I also have a new found love for coconut oil. Dogs will eat vitamin E capsules without any disguise.

ALWAYS, no matter how tired you are, take the time to separate your meals into days before you just throw it in the freezer. It will take twice as long or longer to get them from a big ice cube to individual portions.

And a warning: you will never see roadkill, meats, or vermin the same way again. I am constantly driving down the road and weighing out the nutritional content and meat/bone ratios of groundhogs, cows on the hoof, squirrels etc.

[Christie M]

Hi Tony,

Welcome to the forum!! If you don't mind, can you add your name to your signature line?? It just helps us keep things straight.

Congrats on the new pup. I was just emailing with Cheryl this AM. I am sure you will be happy with your baby. Are you up in MI? I moved from there 4 years ago, and miss everything but the weather

Per feeding, its hard to screw up LOL. As long as you do some research, balance over time and use common sense, you will be fine. That being said, I don't raise pups on raw - I just supplement. I have seen skeletal deformities arise in other people's pups and I just don't think its worth it to risk. So I throw my pups some meat/bones now and then, but I don't raise them that way.

I am also one of the OH MY GOSH....people who will feed raw and kibble in the same meal. I know of the studies and I think they are nuts. LOL. Yep, delayed gastric emptying. But no one has been able to explain to me why it matters that various things take longer to digest then others - including our own diets, but we don't accommodate (well, unless you keep kosher maybe) and there are no studies showing that this EFFECTS our pets. Are there differences? Yes. Does it effect their overall well being and health? No one really knows. In fact, if it takes longer for kibble to digest, then wouldn't that be a positive thing for the raw bacteria to be exposed to the toxic gastric juices? Hmmmmm.

As far as feeding raw goes, there are so many thoughts and opinions it will make your mind spin. Some people think that just meat and bones will do. Some supplement out the wazzoo and seaweed is a huge resource....but how would average canids get the all important seaweed?? LOL.

I feed mostly a combo of chicken and kibble. I do tend to do one in the AM and one at night, but it depends. I also feed other protein sources. I sometimes feed some rice if I feel like it, veggies, fruit...whatever. I figure humans have managed to raise children on various sources of food, I'm sure we can raise dogs too. But education and common sense are the most important.

What are your ultimate goals with your dog?

[Southernmost Dutch]

First, thanks so much for taking the time to give me your two cents ladies...

Lisa- I joined the yahoo group only to unsubscribe this morning. The emails were overwhelming in sheer numbers, but I gathered some great resources. Thanks again.

Denise- I’ve read many of your posts and it sounds like you run quite the operation...it must be both hard work and a blast at the same time. Thanks for the freezer story. I’m versed in power outages after riding out 9+ hurricanes. I’ll share my record fish story some time and what I found left of it after not being able to get to my freezer post- Hurricane Andrew.

Lauren- I laughed all the way through your thoughts. It’s funny how men and women are different. I mean that in the nicest most respectful way, but if you knew where my hands have been after twenty plus years as a ground and helicopter paramedic, you’d know smells and carcasses don’t bother me much anymore. You provided some great tips and I’m going to use several.

Christie- 1) Check my signature please...as requested.

2) Thanks, both Cheryl and Carole have been wonderful to deal with.

3) I’m in the Florida Keys, in particular Big Pine Key out by No Name Key. Lots of open spaces (for the Keys) and a ton of height challenged deer. I haven’t read articles about deformities attributed possibly to raw feeding pups and I sincerely appreciate the warning. I will begin immediate research in that department. My ultimate goals huh? Well, it’s kind of a story really. In 2010 I was involved in a serious bicycling accident. I was struck by a semi-truck while working out fracturing C5, C6, C7, and my left shoulder (severely). The driver was texting and going the wrong way. My coworkers flew me up to the mainland and I wasn’t expected to walk again or use my left arm. My motivation to not only walk again, but to thrive came from my young twin sons and my ex-wife. My wife thought I was going to be a quad or para and divorced me while I was in the hospital. Actually, at one point it was thought I may die. During this time she gave away a pure breed English Retriever I trained for my sons...is everyone getting the picture yet? Well, after that, to say I wasn’t motivated to regain function would be down right numb skullish (if that’s a word). I’ve been rehabbing ever since and am getting stronger everyday. I’m also in nursing school (I can’t fly anymore) and I’m engaged to a beautiful doctor lady I met. In the past, I’ve trained other large breed dogs in protection/bite work and discovered the DS when researching the BM/GSD breeds. My fiance lives on the mainland and we spend holidays and weekends together while I’m school. I have a ton of spare time and I felt training a new pup would get me out of the house more often. So, to make a very long story short- this puppy is part of me healing, a replacement pup for my sons, and motivation for me to take recovery to another level. I intend to do both protection/bite work with my good friends in the KWPD/MCSO K9 units and do something new to me, SAR work. There is a combination volunteer citizen/fire rescue group in the Upper Keys I’m currently courting. I hope that explains my intentions.

and finally Sue- I have to apologize. I totally missed the “Making the Leap” discussion when power reading the "Feeding" section. You were absolutely right about a lot of things being addressed there...so a thousand apologies your way.

I like to thank you ALL again for your insight...have a great night!

Regards,
Tony

[Choochi]

Tony there is a setting on Yahoo groups where you can set it to only email you a digest once a day. Some of the busier lists do get tons of daily emails which can be overwhelming if you have it set to email you every time some one posts a message. You can also opt to not have it email you at all and only check yourself online.

[felixone123]

wow, Tony, that is some story!! So sorry what happened to you and what you must have endured and maybe still are. Wishing you well on your continued recovery.
You are going to have so much fun with your little striped beast!!

[Sugars Mom]

Well, all the best on your continued recovery and thanks for sharing. I look forward to hearing your stories once your pup(?) arrives.

PS Now apology needed; there is a lot on this forum to process!

[Dutchringgirl]

Wow, Tony. Thank you for sharing your story. You sound like a very strong man and I applaud your progress. That is great that a stripy beast will be part of your wonderful life! They will defiantly get you going and give you a work out. I cant wait to hear about him/her and your progress.