Raw meat?

[johninny]

this dog owners magazine article has too many misstatements and convenient ambiguities and contradictions to suggest that it is written from any unbiased position of scientific understanding.

eggs are a complete food source ---- try living on just eggs as a dog or a human. it is such a sweeping statement with no clarification or limitation offered that i have no idea what that means.

cooking eliminates the risk - does not even come close to eliminating the effects of raw egg white. i know you are against cooking, but this kind of flat-out misinformation is not a good sign where you are looking for understanding of complex chemical interactions and their attendant long-term health effects in the body. there is no back-up offered for this assertion or for any other of the myriad assertions made. in fact, most cooking reduces the binding effects [ biotin-destroying effects ] of egg white by 40% to a maximum of 80%, depending on the temperatures achieved and the even distribution of that maximum temp.

perfectly safe to feed several eggs a week - ???? based on what? - studies have shown quite the opposite. it seems the article seems to want the reader to make the leap that the biotin killing egg white is off-set by the biotin plentiful yolk, but this is pure nonsense showing no understanding of the mechanisms involved. [ i personally do not know if the assertion that egg yolk is rich in biotin is true. i have no particular reason to disbelieve that other than it is casually stated within an article that is so casual in its approach to facts and generally inaccurate. for purposes of this discussion, i will assume that there IS abundant biotin in egg yolk.] such a course of regular feeding of raw egg will lead to biotin deficiency in 4 to 7 months. the effects of egg white are cumulative, with incremental damage building over time.

the enzyme in question is , w/r/t biotin, one of the most powerful binders known in chemistry. it is so powerful that there are no chemical processes that we can apply to release the biotin. it is extremely efficient in its binding. ANY biotin in the yolk gets completely absorbed. further, the enzyme would quickly bind with any other biotin that is in the body or may enter the body thereafter for awhile. it lingers whereas biotin does not.

when egg white eliminates the biotin:
it crashes the body's ability to metabolize cholesterol;
it crashes the body's ability to manufacture the myriad essential fatty acids that are needed and are not available any other way. the body makes many specialized and extremely important fatty acids out of the more commonly available fatty acids that come in [only] free-swimming oily fish and oils derived therefrom, flax seed, flax oil, [ only] free- range birds and their eggs, and algae.
interfering with or eliminating this necessary ability of the body to convert ingested fatty acids into the many specific fatty acids that are actually required for specific functions in the body creates a cascade of negative effects which are slow but cumulative and if left unchecked will lead to ill effects, none of which are absolutely life-threatening but are extremely corrosive in their overall degradation of health.

most dog owners would not recognize a specific cause because of the generalized problems and because they are cumulative they seem more like aging - premature aging. --- but good nutrition, and, equally important, lack of bad nutrition prevents many bad aspects of what we generally and wrongly consider aging.

disrupting the processing and production of essential fatty acids has very extensive effects. the earliest effects are likely to be dry hair, itchiness, skin lesions, hot spots / fatigue, lethargy - increased vulnerability to bacterial and fungal infections.
reduced muscle coordination and reduced balance.
degradation of hearing and vision.
longer range, it effects everything that essential fatty acids keep working properly - proper heart function, joints and tendons, . tissue is weakened affecting, as noted, the heart but also significantly contributing to the development of hip dysplasia.

all the dogs i know that live with chickens and are regularly allowed to have some of the egg-laying bounty show all these signs of ''aging'' - way too early in life, but, in fact, they are not essential aspects of aging so they should be negligible in any healthy dog regardless of age til VERY near the end when cell replacement is no longer feasible for the dog's body.

finally, with regard

[johninny]

finally, with regard....

i just finished a very complete commentary on salmonella which not only was not allowed to be edited in, but was erased so i could not copy. the quick version ''dogs are well-equipped to handle the bacteria in raw food'' is completely true on the surface and completely wrong in its implied and inferred conclusions.
the article provides advice to seek out good quality eggs, but at the same time, implies there is really no good reason to follow the advice.

[Schlussdibusti]

This is building up since quite some time, hence the vehemence of this post.

It sickens me greatly how one person can change the community of an entire forum and seems to dominate it's content. We might just change the name to “John's Dog Forum in Memoriam of TD”. A lot of long time members post very rarely now or have left quietly, unfortunately with them left also their vast knowledge of Dutch Shepherds and working dog experience. I will not leave that quietly.

I have lost beloved pets which were my soul mates. I know how hard it is to cope with their loss. But I don't bother this community referencing them, ad nauseam in every other post. And the attempt to replace the loved one adopting one DS after another is futile. Writing a specific list of “quality must haves” for the breeder is ludicrous in my opinion. But I tip my hat to Cheryl at CherCar Kennels who must have done the impossible (this is not meant sarcastic, I mean it)

Owning one dog which was a DS mix doesn't make one a Dutch Shepherd, not even a dog expert. Your posts sound like the embodiment of truth (with an occasional humble "I am not an expert BUT") and if a member dares to contradict, and might not be able to write so eloquently, he/she will be bullied with hour long scientific sounding half truth hodge podge dissertations without the scientific references given. Based on the information on your youtube channel, you are a Russian art collector and not a licensed dog nutritionist or have other medical background or medical degrees. Consequently, since your writings are not based on your own laboratory studies and clinical tests, a reference to the quoted is a must and also standard in the scientific community. You might have noticed that I include links to the sources of my writings or otherwise declare it just as my personal opinion or experience.

For example you recommend often Merrick dog food claiming it's manufacturing process superior to others. Quote copy/pasted from this thread http://www.dutchshepherdforum.com/viewt ... ick#p23070

“choices i have made after studying vet school journals and Whole Dog Journal:

in canned food, i have a strong preference for merrick [ which has bison, turkey, fish and many good choices] not only for their excellent, well-balanced meals but their processing practices and facility are probably the best in the world [ among other things - all under their control in-house in one facility; human standards ingredients and processing practices ].”

Here is a link to a letter from the FDA to Merrick about some of the not so great findings in their processing facility, like salmonella. http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/fda-warni ... to-merrick

Interesting is that you refer to the Whole Dog Journal in your above post as "base of your studying", but discredit my reference to the very same with “this dog owners magazine article has too many misstatements and convenient ambiguities and contradictions to suggest that it is written from any unbiased position of scientific understanding.” If they write along your “lines” it is okay to quote?

In regards to the egg issue, who stirred this up and is the “straw that broke the camel's back” and made me write this rather personally directed post, I trust more long time proven dog nutrition experts like Dr. Pitcairn, Juliette De-Baraicly-Levy, Dr. Wendy Volhardt, etc. rather than websites sponsored by the very pharmaceutical industry who with their recommendations of yearly (over)vaccination, yearly teeth cleaning and the most likely anesthesia that goes with it, and not to mention their scientific formulated food contributes greatly to the ill health of our companion animals and of course has the right medication handy to treat the symptom, not the source.

BTW, webmd.com discourages besides the raw eggs also dairy and human medicine which you on the other hand have recommended on several threads like yoghurt, Robitussin, Xanax. Not all true on webmd.com ?

The scientific references to the “egg white containing Avidin causing Biotin deficiency” can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avidin I hope wikipedia is an accepted reference for you. The discovery of this finding is rather unrelated to feeding a dog a raw whole egg, but read for yourself: “The route to discovery began with the observation that chicks on a diet of raw egg-white were deficient in biotin, despite availability of the vitamin in their diet.” First of all, one can not compare the metabolism of a chicken to a dog's metabolism and nobody suggested to feed their dogs egg whites only.

I also would like to correct a statement in your post which is not true: “i know you are against cooking”. How is that? You might have overlooked my posted “recipes” for wet dog food cooked in a crock pot and earlier dog stew recipes. My experience taught me not to stick to one feeding method only but to utilize the advantages of raw, home cooked and good quality commercial dog food, not all fed at the same time of course. All my animals reached an age beyond what the charts hanging in conventional vet practices are suggesting. They were very healthy up to the very last period of their lives. I must have done something right.

In my opinion the Dutch Shepherd is one of the last true working dog breeds. It saddens me that they are bound to become a fashionable pet and that there will be breeders catering to this trend and “dilute” this noble breed to make it more "pet owner suitable", i.e. beach bums or city slickers.

I will continue on to more working dog related forums where other members have gone and are very active. Although I am not a “pure” working dog person, i.e. my dogs are still pets and will not be “replaced” if they are not winning trophies at trials, this forum changed to a regular pet owner forum without relevance to working dog people and their interests.

So, I got this off my chest. I know this was very personal but I felt it must be said. I am known to voice what others might just think. I would like to close with a quote from my fellow country man Martin Luther: “Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God, Amen”.

[LyonsFamily]

There's much more evidence to the biotin egg white egg yolk thoughts if you look outside the dog community. I powerlift for fun, my husband's pretty seriously into powerlifting and Olympic weightlifting and studies body building heavily. There are many body builders and the like that consume raw eggs and medical sites that weigh the pros and cons and one might find more factual evidence looking into sports nutrition instead.

Egg yolks are high in biotin, so is liver and poultry and probably a ton of other things in most raw diets I don't care to look up right now. A good balanced diet, raw or otherwise, won't come across a biotin issue from even a few daily eggs, especially with the large amounts of other food a DS eats. If the diet is mainly comprised of raw egg whites, you're going to see constant loose stool and diarrhea long before a biotin deficiency.

I for one hope you don't leave the forum completely Eva. I am grateful for the bits you post too. Your crockpot recipe has helped my mom's dog who's on a mainly canned diet and won't be switched to raw for good reasons. There are many reasons why I think the older members have left which probably does include the higher amount of pet people on the forum and mixes that may not even have DS in them. I understand your frustration with the constant disagreements, but there have been other members over time that post contradicting things in the forum and everyone has moved on. I don't think it's fair to single someone out because the majority of the forum is changing and it isn't completely due to one member or another.

[Raven]

I hope no one leaves the forum. While many I used to know seem to have vacated, it's happened over time in much the same way members in other forums leave (or wander in and out). Sometimes people get the information they need, and when they're comfortable with their confidence, they move along...maybe popping in to ask a question or share an accomplishment.

The tag line of this forum is: For The Discussion Of Dutch Shepherds. There's only a couple of DSs on this forum who are literally working dogs; most are pets, companions, who may or may not participate in protection sport (though most do not). There are forums to address the issues with dogs who actually work in the field or heavily compete in protection. This forum is also supposed to help the owners of the pet/companion DS. When knowledgeable people leave because someone rubs them the wrong way, it hurts the dogs more than anyone else.

I've never owned a DS who works for a living (huh, they can't because of their issues--and how many DSs on this forum came from rescue?). I'm not a beach bum or a city slicker. I may not have gotten along with every member, or they with me, but this forum is meant to be a resource for people with DSs who want to share stories or problems or solutions. (And why shouldn't it be for people who have DS-mixes? Those who have them have added a lot to conversations.)

I understand frustration. Very well. I also understand how damaging public confrontation is/can be (on both sides). Without decorum (both sides), nothing gets accomplished, and in the case of this forum, it's the DSs who need help are the ones who will truly suffer more than we do. Call someone out tactfully or PM someone the same if it fails.

And in the end, what we believe (or not believe) today, won't be the same tomorrow. So it seems the best we can do is try to muddle through and help the DSs as best we can, when we can, however we can. It's human nature to disagree. So be it. The welfare of the dogs and the people trying to help them seems more important.

[Asha]

I totally agree Sharon. I'm quite new here, and am not even sure if my dog is a DS, but I return frequently because I love to hear about other members' dogs, experiences, and advice. I personally like to read John's frequent references to TD because it makes me feel normal that I am constantly reminded by how much I miss pets that have passed and remain obsessed with thoughts of them. I see so much love of animals here, so much compassion for other pet owners and their crews, such a celebration of the breed. This is why I keep coming back. Also, the expertise that so many members have has totally helped me with my pup, whether she's a full-blooded abandoned DS, or some brindled mutt who exudes amazing qualities, I want to keep coming back to read the new threads or post something I'm concerned about or think is interesting. I hope this is cool, if I'm offending anyone with my ignorance of the breed, I apologize. I am certainly not a city slicker or beach bum, quite too poor for either, just a dog lover who found the ONLY breed of dog I will ever seek out to own for the rest of my life, and while this revelation is almost entirely due to my interaction with Asha, it also has a lot to do with the insight, guidance, and general FUN I have reading this forum. And this includes JOHNINNY, I want to hear about your animals, I am interested in your opinions, I wan to see you photos, etc. as I want to read about all of the member's pets. ANYWAYS!

[Stacy_R]

and how many DSs on this forum came from rescue?).(And why shouldn't it be for people who have DS-mixes? Those who have them have added a lot to conversations.)

Thank you, Sharon. Tyson is definitely not a purebred DS...too much white, too small, and probably other things that I am not aware of because it doesn't matter to me. Point being that, in my opinion, the DS part of him overrides whatever else is in there and it probably does in most mixes because of the type of dog they are...strong, smart, willful, smart, energetic, drivey...did I say smart???

The sad reality is that as the DS gains in popularity, there will be more in shelters/rescue and more mixes. Tyson is exactly my case in point: I did not seek out the DS breed...I didn't even know it existed. I volunteer with a local rescue and I pulled him from animal control as a puppy to foster him. When it became clear to my husband and I that Tyson was the foster that finally picked us, we kept him. It was a trainer friend who, months later, suggested he might have DS in him. It saddens me to think that those of us who happen to be blessed with a rescue/mix are seen by some as unworthy to be a part of this forum and that our dogs are viewed the same because they aren't purebred and/or working (this is not pointed at any one person in particular...there have been several comments made that intimate this attitude). This forum has been invaluable to me in getting to know the DS breed and how to properly handle/train/manage him as he grows. Without this forum, some who end up with a DS/DS mix unknowingly, may be ill-equipped to handle their dog and find themselves in a situation where the dog ends up in a shelter...possibly multiple times. (As someone who has worked in rescue, that story is, unfortunately, too often heard.)

[LyonsFamily]

Nobody is saying the mixes don't belong. Sugar and Sue, for example, have been on here for a few years and even the older members that have since left welcomed her with open arms and enjoy her postings. Many of us suggest mixes to new members looking for some DS traits but don't want the 100% high drive working dog personality.

The frustration is when people come on and love their mix or pet dog and think that is the ultimate personality and traits for the breed and sometimes even look down on the true working lines left. I'm not talking about John looking to replace Tracedog. Looking for a dog with a certain personality is perfectly acceptable. Everyone is limited on the pets we have, so why not be picky. Plenty of working dog/show/sport/whatever breeders have pups that don't fully work in their program or for prospective buyers looking for a sport dog and place them in pet homes. Christie Meyer posted on here the other day that she had a lower-drive puppy that a new member was looking for.

The problem lies when people are looking for the breed to be more like that overall, even suggesting that things such as photos of these dogs working, showing teeth, doing a bark and hold, etc shouldn't be posted on the forum, breeders websites, and the NADSR calendar and that anyone that kennels the dog is horrible, regardless of the quality of life the dog has or the security of the kennel.

[Stacy_R]

Nobody is saying the mixes don't belong.

I agree with you in that the overwhelming attitude of the majority of the members on this forum is that mixes do belong. And it is a good thing, too, because like I said previously...understanding the personality traits of the DS has proven to be invaluable to me. I am a better owner/trainer/dog-mom to Tyson because of this site.

The problem lies when people are looking for the breed to be more like that overall, even suggesting that things such as photos of these dogs working, showing teeth, doing a bark and hold, etc shouldn't be posted on the forum, breeders websites, and the NADSR calendar and that anyone that kennels the dog is horrible, regardless of the quality of life the dog has or the security of the kennel.

I totally understand what you are saying and agree wholeheartedly. And quite frankly, I have the utmost respect for those who make it their business to ensure the DS breed remains as true as possible (whether breeder or breed advocate or passionate owner). But that also goes the other way...it is also a problem when people are blasted for their dogs being "just" family members instead of solely proven working dogs with jobs. Neither "fur-kid" who gets to sleep on the couch nor "dog with a job" who is kenneled when not working/training/interacting is wrong. They merely speak to one's specific lifestyle and purpose. It is hard for those who have never had or been around a working dog to wrap their heads around the nuances of all that goes into training and managing working dogs and, conversely, it can be just as hard for those who have true working dogs to understand how/why people hold their dogs at "fur-kid" status (though I think the majority of people on this forum are somewhere in-between, recognizing the fact that training for this breed is imperative whether they have a true job or not).

Personally, I love this forum. I can say from personal experience that this forum is overall very welcoming and friendly and everyone deep down wants to help everyone else be able to be the best owners they can be (whether DS, DS mix, Beagles...whatever). I have been on other breed forums that aren't so pleasant to be a part of.

In my opinion, the real problem stems from writing posts in attitudes of all absolutes. It generally always causes offense and/or conflict so people just need to be more aware of what they say/post.

2 Examples:
The discussion of CherCar's "pet quality" line (and, no, I don't care to reopen this discussion which Eric so wisely closed...it could have gotten very ugly). There was a spirit of meanness (not by all) in that discussion (and a separate one that followed) that really set me aback...I was truly shocked because in the short time I have been on this forum, I had never experienced that from anyone. In fact, I have experienced the exact opposite. There are 2 opposing viewpoints to that topic, both with very solid arguments...but neither is absolute. That topic could have had a much different outcome if people would have chosen their words more carefully and bothered to ask more questions instead of attacking Mark and his dog (and CherCar).

And apparently the discussion of feeding is a hot topic as well. Again...people just be careful what they write. I am on a couple of different raw forums, both are very informative and helpful, but one is EXTREMELY EXTREME and everything is an absolute. I recommended organic canned pumpkin for loose stools and I swear I felt like someone came through my computer screen and chopped my head off by the time I was done reading the response... Many people have left that forum because they can't do prey style and they've been told they are killing their dogs...this is the problem with absolutes. Needless to say, I don't post on that one, but I do go back and look through discussions when I have a specific issue or question. And as someone pointed out earlier in this thread (Sharon, I think??)...research changes. For every article or study someone can find that says "A," there is probably a different that says "B."

The great thing about forums is the differing viewpoints and levels of expertise in certain areas. My assumption is that this forum was started for the love of the breed and to be a help for those who have one (or more) of these amazing dogs (whether purebred or mix). People can't help each other if they are writing in absolutes because absolutes typically put people on the defensive (though some absolutes are a no-brainer...e.g. You should absolutely have boundaries for your dog for your own sanity and for the sake of your belongings...especially if it is a DS).

The bottom line in my ever-so-humble opinion is this: We all love our dogs, whether they are working dogs, show dogs, or pets...or DS, DS/mixes, Schnauzers, Beagles, or Pugs... We all want what is best for each of them and want to be the best owners we can be for them. So everyone just needs be careful what they write...and be nice...

[deadrabbits]

Silly question but what is dire butt. I really want to give pepper a good diet and not something that will hurt her. Right now we feed petsmarts version of blue buffalo wilderness puppy formula. She is 12 weeks and I don't mind feeding her raw just seems like it is pricey.

[Stacy_R]

Dire rear is a nice way of saying diarrhea. PetSmart has a store brand version of Blue Buffalo???? I have never heard of that and would question it. Raw isn't pricey if you look for sales. It's a bit more work on the front end, i.e. finding suppliers and pre-bagging meals, but worth it for me in the long run. Blue Buffalo is good food, but if I were going to feed kibble I would go with Orijen or Acana...that's just me, though.

[Dutchringgirl]

ummm...... I would not go with a pet smart brand of anything. I use Orajen.

[deadrabbits]

I can't believe I didn't put that together. I feel stupid for not realizing that's what it meant. I think what we buy is petsmart. The brand is simply nourish high protein puppy formula. Where might you pick up those other brands of food. I don't mind feeding her raw I am just not sure where to start. Chicken, beef liver, fish, etc and the amount of food proper for her as she grows.

[johninny]

i would add ''merrick grain-free'' as a 3rd potential brand of kibble; it is the highest rated on some analyses/lists and i like the way the company operates. i know it is 10$ less per big bag than orijen. i think petsmart would have merrick [ petco does ], but i find that any decently GOOD mom-and-pop store will stock or order any of these 3 brands and will - in my experience - ask for or negotiate to a much lower price than will petsmart or petco, both of which are generally expensive.

note: Christie Meyer suggested that grain free may not be the best in the puppy stage. if i serve normal kibble for my current puppies, i have been using the Orijen Large Breed Puppy and have found it makes a very good training treat also [ keep plastic bags of it in my coat pockets ]. will move the pups to merrick grain-free buffalo as they reach 12 months old.

others here are better to speak about raw feeding. i only do that partially, which i do despite that some here say that should not be done. much of my dry-food feeding is not kibble but an air-dried raw food from new zealand [ but it IS very expensive ]; i also give special [ celebratory/holiday ] meals of raw goat [ muscle and organs ] and grass-fed-to-finish eye-round angus from a local farmer; raw, completely fat-trimmed marrow bones fairly frequently. but again, theirs is not a ''raw diet'', not less a ''prey-model raw diet''. both Stephanie and Stacy who have both already spoken up have great knowledge and advice in this area in terms of really feeding raw.

i do what i have already indicated [ a mix of things ] plus both canned merrick and platinum performance CJ feed supplement every day. they also get a huge variety of fresh [ cooked and raw ] veggies, greens, and fruit and most days some yogurt or cottage cheese. [ all of which is far more than you asked -- sorry !]

IMPORTANT EDIT: do not feed raw fish without a thorough knowledge of what fish species have NO chance of carrying parasites that can kill dogs. best to stay clear unless/until you become expert but even then so many fish are mis-labeled.

[alspyce]

Postby Schlussdibusti » Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:20 pm

"This is building up since quite some time, hence the vehemence of this post.

It sickens me greatly how one person can change the community of an entire forum and seems to dominate it's content. We might just change the name to “John's Dog Forum in Memoriam of TD”. A lot of long time members post very rarely now or have left quietly, unfortunately with them left also their vast knowledge of Dutch Shepherds and working dog experience. I will not leave that quietly."



Thanks for saying exactly what I have been thinking.
I haven't left the forum entirely, just not finding any real breed related info anymore. It seems to have become a chat room for "pet people". Miss all the older folks who have wandered away.

[Stacy_R]

I can't believe I didn't put that together. I feel stupid for not realizing that's what it meant.

LOL...don't sweat it...chalk it up to having a bad week, or being tired, or that you have a crazy DS puppy and your brain cells are fried.

I don't mind feeding her raw I am just not sure where to start. Chicken, beef liver, fish, etc and the amount of food proper for her as she grows.

Here are some links to earlier posts in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2964#p29957
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2964#p29958
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2964#p30039

I did a TON of research before I took the plunge.

As far as where to buy Orijen, here is a link to their website where you can put in your location and it will bring up stores that sell their food. I know you live in Buckeye, but there may be a store closer to where you work if you have to go into Phoenix.
http://www.orijen.ca/where-to-buy/

Blue Buffalo Wilderness IS an above average food and you can get it at PetSmart and PetCo.

Again, if I were going to go to kibble/canned, I would feed any of these:
Orijen
Evo
Acana

**Pioneer Naturals is also a good one that is new to me. I have 2 friends who are fellow raw-feeders (one is a trainer and one runs a rescue) and they have been using this food with fosters and their own dogs who have other issues.

There are also dehydrated foods out there that are very good, but usually pricey:
Honest Kitchen
ZiwiPeak
Primal Freeze-Dried Formula (Freeze-dried instead of dehydrated)
**I keep Ziwi Peak on hand for training and travel and "just in case."

And...there are pre-made, pre-portioned raw foods that you can buy, but again...pricey:
Primal
Stella and Chewy's
**I do keep primal on hand as a "just in case" and for the variety. Also, my husband prefers to feed the patties.

[racingiron1]

Thanks for saying exactly what I have been thinking.

I know you didn’t write the original post, but you HAVE endorsed the sentiments… At the time it was posted, I wrote out a long response over the course of several days. Never posted it, but still have a copy. If/when the original author returns I may dust it off. What follows is an excerpt that I feel is relevant/appropriate now.

If anything about an online forum such as this “sickens you greatly,” you might want to examine your priorities in life. Also, in my eyes that single post here appears to have “changed the community” and had an effect on the content—does that “sicken you greatly,” too? Ms. Goose, may I introduce Mr. Gander?

The content and value of a place like this is wholly determined by the members. If you don’t find what you want here, you either encourage the content you’d like to see or you look elsewhere. The person you quoted has chosen the latter, but they wanted to throw an emotional tantrum to make sure everyone knows why they’re gone. Insulting one member in particular and a large group implicitly is a childish way to express displeasure.

The general spirit I’ve observed in my short time with this community has been one of helpfulness, and that is especially true of John. Sure, he can be passionate about his opinions and TraceDog clearly left a lasting impression on his life. Making assumptions about his motivations is, at best, ignorant and just plain rude. If you really believe what was written, have you ever addressed John directly to find out if your impressions are correct? Ever offered him sincere help or advice about how you think he could fit in with the community you envision?

Framing this discussion as a direct personal conflict seems the least likely way to get a useful outcome. It smacks of an ad hominem attack and tends to diminish your credibility on the subject at hand, for me anyway. BTW, we have strayed FAR away from the subject at hand. I offer my apologies to the moderators and those (like myself) who would prefer to read about raw feeding in this thread. If someone feels the need to discuss further, please, let’s end this hijack and start a new thread in an appropriate location. For my part, I will NOT post further off-topic within this thread.

The original post said this had been “building up since quite some time.” IME, with humans as well as canines, letting something “build up” inside is not healthy. Even small things will fester and eventually manifest themselves in an ugly way…

[Christie M]

I won't defend her personal, public negative statements directed at John. Those things should be handled privately.

However, I will defend the aspect of wanted to preserve the working traits of the Dutch Shepherd. Yes, many of the owners on here do not "work" their dogs. But hopefully they are fully attentive to the working needs of their dog. Those of us who have been into the breed for over a decade or so are very protective of the fact that they were one of the last breeds not ruined by the pet dog community. Its not that pet owners are bad, Of course not.. But once a breed becomes a popular pet breed, then the backyard breeders really pick up and more and more are produced. Health clearances aren't sought and the breed goes to crap quickly. How many "good" German Shepherds are there out there? I mean in percentages. Finding a GSD that has clean hips and elbows, doesn't walk roach back on its hocks, is free of intestinal issues and allergies is like a needle in a hay stack. It is only a matter of time before the DS is plagued by all of those things. It has already started.

I pride myself on breeding dogs that are stable enough to be pets, but also can work their butts off. I think that Asheley and Cheryl have the same goals. A good working dog breeder will always have some that are lower drive. Those dogs should be fixed and put into good pet homes. But what happens when a hobby breeder gets 1 hard core working Dutch in their litter of 10 pet hopefuls? Are they going to have the means to appropriately place that dog where it can be successful? As a hobby breeder, will they even care? Or will it end up being a 7 month old demon that get dumped at the shelter when it isn't as cute anymore.

I founded the rescue many years ago. When we started, we would get about 1 dog a month in need. I stepped back a few years ago and now just foster, but Trudy handles multiple dogs a week.

The members of this forum are here because you enjoy each other, seek advice and share the joys and pains of the breed. But you are a minority. And celebrating the Dutch Shepherd as a "good pet" will only serve to hurt the breed in general and end up with more in rescue. Mental and physical stability will result in the dogs being good pets, with or without high drive - given they have good owners. But breeding just to produce low drive pets is inherently wrong to me. I know that is just my opinion.

Incidentally, I asked Cheryl Carlson directly about her breeding choices. Her intention was not to make strictly pet dogs. But she knows her lines, and the female she was breeding, when bred to her males, produces a little more "kick ass" then she wanted. So she tried to make them maybe more handlable by breeding to Riddick. That may or may not occur again. But she didn't breed a pet dog to a pet dog to make pet dogs. She bred a pet dog to a high drive dog to make more middle of the road working dogs with the stability to be house dogs.