Non-liquid Omega-3

[LyonsFamily]

Anyone have any recommendations for an omega-3 supplement that's not in the liquid or liquid pill form? I've been pretty happy with the regular pills we use with Odin, but Elli gets diarrhea with it and I know that's a common side effect of fish oil.

[johninny]

since our [ your] discussion of fish oil, i have been giving the dogs [ and me ] 1 capsule of sardine-derived oil at 1 gram containing 300mg EPA and 200mg DHA. i have recently been doing more research about what is needed and how the capsule compares to and supplements what i have always done.

relevant to Omega 3 EFAs, i have always and still do use:
1] platinum performance [ one daily serving contains 2160mg linolenic acid, 1289mg. linoleic acid per their ''guaranteed analysis'' - it is a flax-based supplement; and fairly high up the ''ingredients'' list are hyaluronic acid and, DHA from ALGAE - where fish get it in the first place. no mention of EPA, but i am no expert on the specifics of this stuff so something may be escaping my notice.
2] 1 can of sardines almost every day. you made me curious when you said something about the huge amount of sardines you would need to feed to get 1 capsules worth of EFAs. i can now say it seems that 1 can is likely to have a total of EPA and DHA omega 3s that exceeds and may be double that found in most 1000mg [ 1 gram ] capsules of fish oil
3] 4 tablespoons per day of ground flax seed [ 2 of these are the above-mentioned platinum performance where ground flax seed is the carrier base for the supplements and 2 tbsp are just bob's red mill flaxseed meal
4] for conjugated linolenic [?] acid [ for fat-burning, lean-muscle-building from grass-fed red meat], very rare, grass-fed eye round or raw grass-fed goat meat and organs [ that i order with the antlers from elkusa !]

so, for the last several days i have been considering dropping the fish oil capsule for the dogs as they already get plenty from the sardines and platinum perf., but want to consider [ research a bit more ] continuing for me. for me, eating the fish everyday adds unwanted calories, but the capsules have risks; for example,
one of the things i read is that the process of making [ extracting, processing ] the fish oil usually creates extremely toxic molecules in the capsuled oil. if the oil is de-fished [ deodorized, cleaned up, etc], then it has been made rather toxic [ probably like olive oil or flax seed oil that is not cold-pressed]. thus, getting the oil directly from low-contamination fish [ like sardines or wild salmon ] is much more healthy and generally better-tolerated than oil-only capsules. if Elli cannot handle fish at all, then algae-derived EPA/DHA Omega 3s are the answer [ and may be the ultimate superior form anyway, like insects and flax seeds vs. free-range chicken]; must be available in capsules from somebody, but now i know my dogs have been getting that form for 12 years in the platinum supplement.

so, to summarize, try 1 can of sardines and/or go whole-hog for a complete nutrition solution vis-a-vis PlatinumPerformanceCJ - which might make a lot of sense with the raw diet.

[Stacy_R]

I have looked and looked, but cannot find anything. I am going to swing by our holisitc pet store today and see if they have anything there, or if she knows of anywhere on-line you can get some. Have you tried fish oil pills for Elli that are 1/2 of what you give Odin?

[LyonsFamily]

I have looked and looked, but cannot find anything. I am going to swing by our holisitc pet store today and see if they have anything there, or if she knows of anywhere on-line you can get some. Have you tried fish oil pills for Elli that are 1/2 of what you give Odin?

Thanks for checking for us. I don't have much of a holistic or boutique selection here, but I do have the internet. She's already at half his dose because she's only 40lbs and he weighs over 70. I've tried going down to even less, but she still has trouble with that. We have tylan powder, metronydazole, and plenty of pumpkin that I've tried adding in, but the only thing that helps is completely removing the fish oil. I haven't tried solid fresh fish yet though and will try to find those tonight. Living in farm country has gotten me some great connections for grassfed and organic meat, as well as wild venison, so the dose could probably go rather low without all the feed lot omega 6 inbalances.

I just took a fecal in to double check we weren't dealing with anything else on top of this and it came back negative. She had one in July that was negative as well.

[johninny]

just to clarify, as it may have gotten lost in my long answer and was not in my summary: the fish-specific Omega 3 EFAcids EPA & DHA come originally from algae and are in their most pure, abundant, and well-tolerated form there, so look for these derived from algae rather than fish. [ i did say this is the form used in Platinum Performance CJ, which is brilliantly formulated both for dogs' metabolism and nutritional needs according to the vet school journals i used to read.]
algae and oily fish have ONLY these 2 omega 3s, so getting the even more essential omega3 ALA from another source such as flax seed [oil] or, less effective, olive oil is wise. ALA coverts to a lot of other omega3s in the body so it is important to maintenance of the proper diversity and range of omega 3s. so you can get EPA and DHA from ALA but it takes a lot [ a whole tablespoon of flax seed oil would be needed ] so algae is more direct. however, if algae-sourced omegas are very expensive [ i have never looked ], then flax seed oil may make perfect sense despite the fact that it is not exactly inexpensive. flax seed oil - like with other plant oils - should be ''cold-pressed''.

[johninny]

sorry for another clarification: i was not explicit about saying the platinum performance CJ is NOT LIQUID. said only that is was in a base of flax seed, but now realize one might assume that could be oil. they use ground flax meal as a base for a huge slew of additives. the flax meal [ not a powder or flour, but like the consistency of wheat bran ] has the added benefit of firming up loose stool when there is a lack of infection requiring meds intervention.

[Stacy_R]

Check out this site: http://www.thewholisticpet.com/products ... line.html/
They have a couple of items that might work...
Canine Complete Joint Mobility
Run Free
They are both *technically* for joint support, but the Run Free label shows Omega 3 and 6 at 1475 mg and 1373 mg respectively. Like an idiot, I didn't look at the CCJM while I was at the store because I thought the label would be on the website. I am going back up there tomorrow to get a dog groomed and will check the CCJM label for you.
*sidenote...I have used the CCJM for my min pin who is a bit arthritic and it is amazing.

[johninny]

a little more research today [ actually a lot more - looking at everything i do in this area ]: i found that the 4 tablespoons of flax SEED that i feed each day would supply a bit over 10 grams of ALA, which is more than enough to convert to any amount of EPA and DHA [ the fish/algae EFAs ] that is needed and still have plenty left over for direct use in body and for conversion to other Omega 3s as needed. i already reported but will repeat in this context that 1 tablespoon of flax oil would be enough for the epa/dha conversion, but how much ALA would be left over would depend on the conversion rate which varies too much to be sure in this case. EPA and DHA can be over-dosed in direct form, but are only converted from ALA if the body does not already have enough. i think i also noted - but maybe not clearly enough - that one should definitely not limit Omega 3 intake to just the 2 fish/algae based ones. a source of the other Omega 3s such as ALA is essential as the different O-3s do different things. if the chicken you feed raw [ i think you do chicken - ? ] is truly free-range [ not to be confused at all with cageless ], then maybe you have that covered, but some form of flax is the most efficient way of getting sufficient helpings of the non-sea O-3s. olive oil also gets you a fair amount of ALA, but also gives you a fair amount of O-6 acids, of which i think you feel you have relatively too much already.

i have decided on the following daily regimen for my pack:
^sardine/anchovy oil pill - discontinue daily but keep on hand to give on the rare day that sardines are not served. [ especially while it is a puppy pack as these O-3s are an essential component of brain composition.]
^1 can of sardines [3.2 oz., always draining whatever liquid they are packed in - usually water ]
^2 tablespoons of ground flax seed
^2 more tablespoons of mostly ground flax seed which is the Platinum Complete Joint that has more algae-derived O-3s and so much more.

[Stacy_R]

^1 can of sardines [3.2 oz., always draining whatever liquid they are packed in - usually water ]

Where do you find your canned sardines? What brand? I have a hard time finding canned that aren't loaded with sodium (even those packed in water).

[johninny]

well, now i am embarrassed to say, but i just buy the 2 most common brands, bumble bee and beach cliff. otherwise, the cost would be incredible. the salt is why i drain them dry. use 28 cans per week. the check-out people and the supply manager at the store think i am crazy. their check-out system does not allow them to multiply a # of items by the price. on my last sardine trip, they had to scan in 180 separate items to cover my sardines - the longest receipt anyone had ever seen. the people behind me were incredulous.
[ i buy a lot when they are on sale.]

[Stacy_R]

the people behind me were incredulous. [ i buy a lot when they are on sale.]

Hahaha! I wish I could have been there to see that! I had to laugh one time when I place a dog food order with the butcher... He had a new guy working for him and as he put all my stuff in the bag, you could tell he was thinking I was the weirdest person on the planet (chicken feet, pigs feet, turkey necks). He finally mustered up the courage to ask me what it was all for. When I told him I feed raw and it was for my dogs he was somewhat relieved, yet still had that look on his face like: "this lady is "

[Stacy_R]

Stephanie -
I checked the label for the Canine Complete Joint Mobility:
Omega 3 = 3540 mg
Omega 6 = 3204 mg

Many people who grind their own raw will use this as a supplement. Here is a snapshot of the label:

1-CCJM.jpg (80.39 KiB) Viewed 6489 times

[LyonsFamily]

Stephanie -
I checked the label for the Canine Complete Joint Mobility:
Omega 3 = 3540 mg
Omega 6 = 3204 mg

Many people who grind their own raw will use this as a supplement. Here is a snapshot of the label:

1-CCJM.jpg

I don't mind that this is a joint supplement, Elli already takes MSM regularly and I could replace that with this, but the omega 6 to omega 3 ratio is pretty high here. When feeding a processed food such as kibble and canned or even premade raw, the omega 6:3 ratio is artificially balanced most of the time, so this supplement would work fine for those looking for an additional dose for therapeutic reasons.

When feeding a home made raw diet with primarily feed lot fed meat, the omega 6's are way higher and the goal is to feed something that is high in omega 3s and lower in omega 6 to get back to natural ratios. Feeding grassfed and wild caught meat is ideal, but not that realistic for most budget. The ratio in this supplement here is 1:1.1 for omega 6:3 where as fish oil has ratio of 1:8 and krill has an even higher ratio of 1:12. Flax seed is a 1:3, so even that would be an improvement from this supplement.

Since grassfed is around 3:1, I think flax seed is about the minimum we could do and I'd have to go higher if we bought more grocery store meat. I did find some fresh caught sardines in the raw form at a local market. I need to look into the sourcing on it, but that would be awesome if we could avoid the supplement route all together and avoid having to go with canned fish that are salted and cooked.

[johninny]

1 caution on raw fish. i know raw salmon is totally off limits it is so dangerous - fatal. there was a discussion of this on the forum and somehow i developed in my head a prohibition against ANY raw fish for dogs. i think that must be because it was determined that salmon is not the only dangerous fish, and so that was my way of simplifying. but unless you know or remember with greater precision than i, some research is advised before doing any raw fish just to be careful. later i will see if i can find that post.
also, would i be wrong in thinking - as i do - that the added salt in the cans of sardines is really in the water and if all that is dumped, then the resulting salt intake is minimal? [ they do not taste salty to me, but then i am a total freak for salt, so maybe i do not taste salt unless it is caked on. ]

re ''sourcing on it'', one of the great things about sardines is that [ i believe ] they are all caught wild [ not valuable enough or rare enough to farm] and they are too small to be contaminated heavily by metals and chemicals like fish further up the food chain. krill is also good that way too. before i found the sardine/anchovy fish oil, i was using krill oil.

i did not note earlier because i was not and am not sure of cause and effect, but the 2 younger pups had problems with extremely loose stool [ diarrhea-like ] at least once a day while on the fish capsules. it seems to have ended - at the least, definitely improved - since cutting the pills. there was no infection, etc, but i really am not at all certain of the cause.

[LyonsFamily]

1 caution on raw fish. i know raw salmon is totally off limits it is so dangerous - fatal. there was a discussion of this on the forum and somehow i developed in my head a prohibition against ANY raw fish for dogs. i think that must be because it was determined that salmon is not the only dangerous fish, and so that was my way of simplifying. but unless you know or remember with greater precision than i, some research is advised before doing any raw fish just to be careful. later i will see if i can find that post.

I think the the focus on raw fish was the concern for scombroid poisoning which is most common in salmon and salmonoids. Scrombroid can be prevented by feeding solid for 3-4 weeks and not feeding it after it had been thawed for a while. Since sardines are so small, I could get away with feeding them completely frozen solid and would avoid all of those problems.

While salmon can be fed, it has an awful shelf life once thawed and in addition to the danger, well sourced salmon is expensive for something that's not a big part of a dog's diet. There's also the issue of salmon liver flukes which is also solved by freezing.


This the compilation I have saved on my computer regarding raw fish with some links...

"Fish not safe to feed:
Any fish that isn't safe for people to eat.

Very large fish, because the larger the fish the more mercury the fish carries.

Old, off or fish that is from an iffy source.

~~~~
Things to consider when planning to buy fish;

Fresh water fish don't have high levels of Omega 3s.

Filleted fish don't offer skin, heads, or organs - often, this is the only whole prey some people can source.

Farmed fish are fed the equivalent of 'Fish Chow', or worse - not species appropriate.

~~~~

Fish you should be cautious about, here's a few things to consider;
Thawed fish, even if refrigerated is subject to Scombroid Poisoning;
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/.../discond/Docu ... mbroid.pdf

ALWAYS feed fish freshly thawed, not after its been thawed/thawing for a few days, and NEVER after its been room temperature for even a couple hours.

Feeding a lot of fish can result in Thiamin poisoning, especially cats;
http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dnpna/anh ... b1_def.htm

http://books.google.com/books...

The liver fluke that causes Salmon Poisoning, only affects fresh, never frozen Salmon and salmonids in the Pacific NorthWest of the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_poisoning_disease

http://www.merckmanuals.com/...

Always feed Salmon after being solid frozen for 3-4 weeks for this reason, if you live in the Pacific NorthWest of the US."

[johninny]

sounds like you are on top of this.
i did just look up a ''such as'' list of fish that contain the parasite [ the liver fluke you mentioned?] that can be fatal to a dog in 2 weeks. listed were salmon, shad, sturgeon and trout. [ that is 4 of my 5 personal , all-time favorite oily fish with only mackerel missing, so i assume mackerel is also subject to this parasite.] shad and trout are the smallest listed, so maybe the small fry get to skip this scourge. of note though that no non-oily fish are listed; and if tuna had it you would think they would mention that rather than shad or sturgeon [ which i actually go for any chance i get! ].

i will be interested to learn of the choices you make.

[Stacy_R]

the omega 6 to omega 3 ratio is pretty high here.

True. The whole Omega 6:3 makes my head spin sometimes. I have seen recommended ratios range from 10:1 to 4:1. And recently I read an article saying that they should be closer to 2:1 (except in cases of inflammation) [Source: Cathy Alinovi, DVM ].

I did find some fresh caught sardines in the raw form at a local market. I need to look into the sourcing on it, but that would be awesome if we could avoid the supplement route all together and avoid having to go with canned fish that are salted and cooked.

Mackrel is good too.

[LyonsFamily]

Good to know about the mackerel. I figured since Elli doesn't need the therapeutic dose like Odin does and she's so tiny, I only need 1.5 ozs of fish a day which it totally doable. It'll be even less if we stick to the better local meat.

[Stacy_R]

Mackerel has roughly 2991mg omega-3 in 4 oz fillet and 3 oz of sardines has roughly 1300mg.

[johninny]

on omega 3 lists for fish, mackerel is usually at the top in terms of concentration. fresh water Siscowet [ i.e, not rainbow] lake trout has a lot more but not all in dha and epa. i suspect shad would top them all but no one but me cares about shad. 3rd highest concentration on one list is spiny DOGFISH !

oh, almost forgot: when buying real fish [ not canned ] around here for me and the dogs, more often than not i get blue fish because no one cares about it, it is omega3 oily, and abundant here - caught daily, so it is super cheap - literally the cheapest possible fresh caught fish i can buy and i love it. i do not know how that translates 1100 miles inland, but thought i should mention it.

i do suspect that mackerel is subject to that parasite.