2022 Photo of the Year Featured: Ice Submitted BY; ICE Theme: Open |
Just registered? Read This. Featured Topics To DS, or not to DS? What's the buzz on DNA Tests? A Malaherd? Submissiveness This should be read by everyone How To Select/Research a Breeder Other brindle breeds Click Here for the forum Facebook page. New Photo of the Month Format Coming in February |
CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
-
- Working Dog
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:22 am
- Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
- Location: NH/hamptons/nyc
CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
i am curious about the relative benefits and downsides of canned vs kibble. i have been struck by the fact that all discussion here in my one year of participating is raw vs kibble. also, the respected breeders feed raw and most of them supplement that regularly or occasionally with kibble. WDJ and vet school journals years ago had a huge preference for canned in terms of benefit [ vs kibble ]; is all that research on health benefits/nutrition out-of-out invalid for some reason, etc., etc.?
FOR THE PURPOSE OF KEEPING THIS DISCUSSION SIMPLE AND TO THE POINT, CAN WE ASSUME THAT WE ARE TALKING ONLY ABOUT THE HIGHEST QUALITY KIBBLES -excluding the finest air-dried dry food- AND CANNED FOODS and ARE NOT DISCUSSING RAW DIETS? [ i am moving further in that direction ( have always given raw bones for the marrow), but will never go all the way for various reasons.][ also - at least for me - it is not about organ meat either since the dogs get some canned or air-dried kibble organ meat every day.]
it struck me that my assumption - derived from my readings years ago and from logical understanding of processing methods - that canned is far superior might need to be revisited when i realized no one here seems to consider even the existence of canned food and when Stephanie discussed the dental benefits of raw vs not raw. on this latter point, i wondered whether there was any particular dental health advantage of canned or kibble relative to each other, recognizing that raw would win hands-down on this point.
would be glad to be directed to good, well done studies or analyses if that is an easier way to respond. welcome any thoughts on the relative merits here.
FOR THE PURPOSE OF KEEPING THIS DISCUSSION SIMPLE AND TO THE POINT, CAN WE ASSUME THAT WE ARE TALKING ONLY ABOUT THE HIGHEST QUALITY KIBBLES -excluding the finest air-dried dry food- AND CANNED FOODS and ARE NOT DISCUSSING RAW DIETS? [ i am moving further in that direction ( have always given raw bones for the marrow), but will never go all the way for various reasons.][ also - at least for me - it is not about organ meat either since the dogs get some canned or air-dried kibble organ meat every day.]
it struck me that my assumption - derived from my readings years ago and from logical understanding of processing methods - that canned is far superior might need to be revisited when i realized no one here seems to consider even the existence of canned food and when Stephanie discussed the dental benefits of raw vs not raw. on this latter point, i wondered whether there was any particular dental health advantage of canned or kibble relative to each other, recognizing that raw would win hands-down on this point.
would be glad to be directed to good, well done studies or analyses if that is an easier way to respond. welcome any thoughts on the relative merits here.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
- LyonsFamily
- Training Dog
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:08 am
- Tell us about yourself: Odin 5 years
Elli 5 years - Location: Michigan
- Contact:
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
I think one of the biggest reasons is the cost. Since we all have DS/DS mixes on this forum, it's safe to assume everyone is feeding at least one 50lb+ dog. High end cans typically go for $2-$3+ each and for a dog needing 2 or more a day, that gets really expensive.
I have had great success dropping post-spay weight off my family's female setter (Sydney) by feeding strictly canned. Since there is so much nutritional value in one can and a high moisture content, it works well to fill the dog up on less amounts of food. My parents aren't really into the raw thing and don't want to separate the dogs when they eat. Since raw is a higher value food to most dogs, there's a greater change for everyone to get a little greedy.
I think aside from the high cost, the other downsize if that there's absolutely nothing in canned food that will work to help keep the teeth clean. Sydney has to get her teeth brushed every day and scaled regularly. Evangers has some canned formulas that provide a little more substance to them like their whole fish and chicken leg if someone where to seek those out, but some of those go up to $4 a can.
I once had a customer paying over $4 a can to exclusively feed her 120lb Akita. The boutique I worked at at the time really liked having her as a customer. Even with the 15% off per case discount we gave her, her dog food bill was higher than my rent.
I have had great success dropping post-spay weight off my family's female setter (Sydney) by feeding strictly canned. Since there is so much nutritional value in one can and a high moisture content, it works well to fill the dog up on less amounts of food. My parents aren't really into the raw thing and don't want to separate the dogs when they eat. Since raw is a higher value food to most dogs, there's a greater change for everyone to get a little greedy.
I think aside from the high cost, the other downsize if that there's absolutely nothing in canned food that will work to help keep the teeth clean. Sydney has to get her teeth brushed every day and scaled regularly. Evangers has some canned formulas that provide a little more substance to them like their whole fish and chicken leg if someone where to seek those out, but some of those go up to $4 a can.
I once had a customer paying over $4 a can to exclusively feed her 120lb Akita. The boutique I worked at at the time really liked having her as a customer. Even with the 15% off per case discount we gave her, her dog food bill was higher than my rent.
Stephanie
'Odin' NV PTA Odin of Another Kingdom RL1
'Elli' Drawing Our Own Constellations RL1 CGC CGCA
'Odin' NV PTA Odin of Another Kingdom RL1
'Elli' Drawing Our Own Constellations RL1 CGC CGCA
- Stacy_R
- Training Dog
- Posts: 879
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:11 am
- Tell us about yourself: 3 dogs and graying hair thanks primarily to Tyson...
- Location: Carolinas
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
Ditto that. If I did not feed raw, I would feed kibble and not canned specifically for the dental issue. Once you've had a dog with severe dental issues, you never want to go there again.LyonsFamily wrote:I think one of the biggest reasons is the cost. Since we all have DS/DS mixes on this forum, it's safe to assume everyone is feeding at least one 50lb+ dog. High end cans typically go for $2-$3+ each and for a dog needing 2 or more a day, that gets really expensive.
I think aside from the high cost, the other downsize if that there's absolutely nothing in canned food that will work to help keep the teeth clean.
And then you have a double-whammy on cost...the high cost of the canned + the cost of dental visits to the vet (they aren't cheap...).
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
-
- Working Dog
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:22 am
- Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
- Location: NH/hamptons/nyc
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
ok, this is what i was wondering. i get that canned does not have any abrasive ability [ the can i use from merrick does include a whole chicken thigh complete with bone but that bone is not going to benefit teeth], but i have this assumption in my head [still] that says kibble must be much worse because of the processed form it's in. think of pretzels or nachos which give that sense of abrasion but short of candy there is nothing worse for teeth.
i apologize if this seems argumentative; i promise it is not - i WANT to be convinced. nothing would please me more if i could be totally comfortable switching the dogs' canned portion of diet to kibble -- and ''the dental issue'' would do that for me. do you have personal evidence, know of studies that indicate, or it it simply a broadly recognized fact that kibble is superior in terms of ''the dental issue''?
i apologize if this seems argumentative; i promise it is not - i WANT to be convinced. nothing would please me more if i could be totally comfortable switching the dogs' canned portion of diet to kibble -- and ''the dental issue'' would do that for me. do you have personal evidence, know of studies that indicate, or it it simply a broadly recognized fact that kibble is superior in terms of ''the dental issue''?
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
- Stacy_R
- Training Dog
- Posts: 879
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:11 am
- Tell us about yourself: 3 dogs and graying hair thanks primarily to Tyson...
- Location: Carolinas
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
You don't sound argumentative in the least.
I cannot point you to any studies or articles, but I can speak out of experience. Even when feeding raw, if it is all ground, it will eventually have the same negative effect on the dog's teeth. When I first switched to raw, I fed all ground because it was easy...I had 2 small dogs at the time and I could grind everything up, make little doggie meatballs weighing exactly the correct portions, and then freeze. VOILA! I began to notice that my min pin's teeth weren't getting the benefit of "natural brushing" (gnawing through hunks of meat) and my mini-schnauzer actually did start to show tartar buildup.
I don't think that there is anything wrong with feeding both...canned and kibble...if you are sold on the nutritional benefit of canned. I have a friend who does that...canned in the morning, kibble at night. And I still feed ground to all 3 of my fur-kids along with prey-style raw.
I am going over to my holistic boutique tomorrow and will chat with the owner there specifically on this issue for you and get her take. She is amazing and is a wealth of knowledge.
I cannot point you to any studies or articles, but I can speak out of experience. Even when feeding raw, if it is all ground, it will eventually have the same negative effect on the dog's teeth. When I first switched to raw, I fed all ground because it was easy...I had 2 small dogs at the time and I could grind everything up, make little doggie meatballs weighing exactly the correct portions, and then freeze. VOILA! I began to notice that my min pin's teeth weren't getting the benefit of "natural brushing" (gnawing through hunks of meat) and my mini-schnauzer actually did start to show tartar buildup.
I don't think that there is anything wrong with feeding both...canned and kibble...if you are sold on the nutritional benefit of canned. I have a friend who does that...canned in the morning, kibble at night. And I still feed ground to all 3 of my fur-kids along with prey-style raw.
I am going over to my holistic boutique tomorrow and will chat with the owner there specifically on this issue for you and get her take. She is amazing and is a wealth of knowledge.
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
-
- Working Dog
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:22 am
- Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
- Location: NH/hamptons/nyc
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
Stacy, that would be great.
my problem is that i completely lack any personal anecdotal evidence that wet canned is bad for the teeth. TraceDog had ONLY wet canned [ as opposed to kibble ] almost every day of his life. [ as i think you know, he did get lots of other stuff, but no raw except for marrow bones.] he only ate kibble [ the air-dried Kiwi Peak once it became available ] in rare convenience emergencies or on road trips, but for the longest such trip - to the basel art fair in miami, i packed the wagon with cases and cases of cans which sufficed when he wasn't having chefs' suggestions. anyway, he never met a vet who was not shocked by the perfect condition of his teeth and gums [ i.e.,''stunningly flawless'', ''astounding'' ] or who failed to ask how they stayed that way. got the impression that none of them believed me that nothing had ever been done other than giving him raw marrow bones. he had perfect puppy-white teeth til the end. i had always assumed that the marrow bones were responsible, but, from my readings here, i definitely get the impression that the marrow bones are not enough to explain it. despite all this i remain open-minded - realizing that TD's perfect dental health may have been just a fluke in this regard as he was a fluke in so many other ways.
BTW, thank you both, Stephanie and Stacy ---- and not just for your responses here !!
my problem is that i completely lack any personal anecdotal evidence that wet canned is bad for the teeth. TraceDog had ONLY wet canned [ as opposed to kibble ] almost every day of his life. [ as i think you know, he did get lots of other stuff, but no raw except for marrow bones.] he only ate kibble [ the air-dried Kiwi Peak once it became available ] in rare convenience emergencies or on road trips, but for the longest such trip - to the basel art fair in miami, i packed the wagon with cases and cases of cans which sufficed when he wasn't having chefs' suggestions. anyway, he never met a vet who was not shocked by the perfect condition of his teeth and gums [ i.e.,''stunningly flawless'', ''astounding'' ] or who failed to ask how they stayed that way. got the impression that none of them believed me that nothing had ever been done other than giving him raw marrow bones. he had perfect puppy-white teeth til the end. i had always assumed that the marrow bones were responsible, but, from my readings here, i definitely get the impression that the marrow bones are not enough to explain it. despite all this i remain open-minded - realizing that TD's perfect dental health may have been just a fluke in this regard as he was a fluke in so many other ways.
BTW, thank you both, Stephanie and Stacy ---- and not just for your responses here !!
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
- Stacy_R
- Training Dog
- Posts: 879
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:11 am
- Tell us about yourself: 3 dogs and graying hair thanks primarily to Tyson...
- Location: Carolinas
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
WOW!!! That is amazing...I wish that was my experience! I can see why you'd be hesitant to switch since you had no dental issues with canned.johninny wrote:TraceDog had ONLY wet canned [ as opposed to kibble ] almost every day of his life. [ as i think you know, he did get lots of other stuff, but no raw except for marrow bones.] ...he never met a vet who was not shocked by the perfect condition of his teeth and gums [ i.e.,''stunningly flawless'', ''astounding'' ] or who failed to ask how they stayed that way. he had perfect puppy-white teeth til the end. despite all this i remain open-minded - realizing that TD's perfect dental health may have been just a fluke in this regard as he was a fluke in so many other ways.
Thank YOU, too!! We are all in this together, right?!johninny wrote:BTW, thank you both, Stephanie and Stacy ---- and not just for your responses here !!
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
- LyonsFamily
- Training Dog
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:08 am
- Tell us about yourself: Odin 5 years
Elli 5 years - Location: Michigan
- Contact:
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
I'm not sure if you'll find evidence that the wet canned is actually BAD for the teeth, but it's more that it isn't good. If that makes sense at all. There are certain dogs that have wonderful teeth, no matter what and you likely wouldn't notice too much of a difference on those dogs. If Tracedog was lucky in those departments or got teeth cleaning from some other sources, chews, marrow bones, frequent brushing, water additives, etc that could be a good reason that there isn't any evidence from the canned food.johninny wrote:Stacy, that would be great.
my problem is that i completely lack any personal anecdotal evidence that wet canned is bad for the teeth.
I would stick to the canned plus kibble if I were you and try to get the dental benefits elsewhere. I think the nutritional advantage of adding a high quality canned, if you can afford it, far outweighs any dental help kibble can give. Since you already have some kibble mixed in, you're getting some of the benefits and the advantage would be even less. There's nothing special about kibble that you can't get from something like specifically made dental chews or a water additive.
Stephanie
'Odin' NV PTA Odin of Another Kingdom RL1
'Elli' Drawing Our Own Constellations RL1 CGC CGCA
'Odin' NV PTA Odin of Another Kingdom RL1
'Elli' Drawing Our Own Constellations RL1 CGC CGCA
-
- Working Dog
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:22 am
- Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
- Location: NH/hamptons/nyc
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
makes perfect sense - not bad, not good.
what you had said a while ago got me concerned and i do think with TD there had to have been a lot of luck going on [ good genes or maybe as simple as he NEVER ate anything he was not supposed to so he did not get nasty extra bacteria in his mouth]. whatever it was, it is clear Sakima's dental health will not be so carefree. [ tho vet said no action recommended yet and since then his teeth have been looking better and better.]
thanks for the advice.
what you had said a while ago got me concerned and i do think with TD there had to have been a lot of luck going on [ good genes or maybe as simple as he NEVER ate anything he was not supposed to so he did not get nasty extra bacteria in his mouth]. whatever it was, it is clear Sakima's dental health will not be so carefree. [ tho vet said no action recommended yet and since then his teeth have been looking better and better.]
thanks for the advice.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
- Schlussdibusti
- Working Dog
- Posts: 1040
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:25 pm
- Tell us about yourself: I adopted a DS
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
Here are my thoughts..............
I think canned food is better than dry because of the higher moisture content. But I don't like the high price of good quality canned food and the fact that cans are made out of metal, most likely aluminum.
So I decided to buy a crockpot and cook my own. Much less expensive and I control what goes in. Here is a recipe I came up with:
Angus Beef Stew
Beef Liver
Beef Heart
Marrow bone (placed in the middle)
1 carrot
1 small sweet potato
A handful of green beans
1 midsize tomato
1/2 cup of Buckwheat or Quinoa
1.5 cup of pure filtered water
A bit of Rocksalt
Meat cut into half inch cubes, veggies as small as possible, so it cooks quicker. I put it on high for about 5 hours.
Marco likes it
I think canned food is better than dry because of the higher moisture content. But I don't like the high price of good quality canned food and the fact that cans are made out of metal, most likely aluminum.
So I decided to buy a crockpot and cook my own. Much less expensive and I control what goes in. Here is a recipe I came up with:
Angus Beef Stew
Beef Liver
Beef Heart
Marrow bone (placed in the middle)
1 carrot
1 small sweet potato
A handful of green beans
1 midsize tomato
1/2 cup of Buckwheat or Quinoa
1.5 cup of pure filtered water
A bit of Rocksalt
Meat cut into half inch cubes, veggies as small as possible, so it cooks quicker. I put it on high for about 5 hours.
Marco likes it
Eva & Marco BH
Jupiter, Florida
Jupiter, Florida
-
- Working Dog
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:22 am
- Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
- Location: NH/hamptons/nyc
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
no kidding, I would love that!
thank you.
thank you.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
- Schlussdibusti
- Working Dog
- Posts: 1040
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:25 pm
- Tell us about yourself: I adopted a DS
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
In regards to the possible dental benefit of kibble.....
I just can't imagine that the 30 seconds of eating dry food would have any abrasive effect considering especially that the higher quality dry food is coated with probiotics.
But this is just my common sense and not scientific fact.
I just can't imagine that the 30 seconds of eating dry food would have any abrasive effect considering especially that the higher quality dry food is coated with probiotics.
But this is just my common sense and not scientific fact.
Eva & Marco BH
Jupiter, Florida
Jupiter, Florida
- Stacy_R
- Training Dog
- Posts: 879
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:11 am
- Tell us about yourself: 3 dogs and graying hair thanks primarily to Tyson...
- Location: Carolinas
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
I would agree with Stephanie here, as well as her comment about some dogs have great teeth and others aren't so lucky. Just be aware when purchasing chews or water additives that they do not contain Xylitol as it can cause hypoglycemia, or low blood sugar, in dogs.LyonsFamily wrote:I would stick to the canned plus kibble if I were you and try to get the dental benefits elsewhere. I think the nutritional advantage of adding a high quality canned, if you can afford it, far outweighs any dental help kibble can give. Since you already have some kibble mixed in, you're getting some of the benefits and the advantage would be even less. There's nothing special about kibble that you can't get from something like specifically made dental chews or a water additive.
There are other alternatives to dental health, too. There is a product called PetzLife Oral Care that comes in a gel and a spray and there are all sorts of enzymatic doggie toothpastes out there. I try to attend to everyone's teeth either by brushing or applying the Petzlife once a week. Like I said in my earlier post, once you've had doggie dental issues, you don't want to go there again. (poor Mr. Snickers!!!) Just try to get Sakima used to having his teeth brushed and you can play it by ear. The antlers help, too!!!
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
- Stacy_R
- Training Dog
- Posts: 879
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:11 am
- Tell us about yourself: 3 dogs and graying hair thanks primarily to Tyson...
- Location: Carolinas
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
Ok, John... You are going to be pleased to hear what Ellen and I discussed this morning regarding this topic. And I learned something today!!! Being a raw-feeder, I've been out of the loop on the canned vs. kibble debate. Yay for learning!!!
Here you go:
If you are feeding high-quality canned (e.g.Fromm, Ziwi-Peak, Merrick, Wysong, Evo, Evanger's, etc) you are fine. Just be sure to give them (which I know you already do) antlers, marrow bones, dental chews, etc to chew on, staying away from anything that has xylitol in it. She also agreed with me on keeping some of the Petzlife Oral Care on hand...it really is super easy and my dogs think it is some sort of treat that I rub/spray on their teeth...and I'm not telling them otherwise!!
Basically, the reason canned food was seen as evil for so long was because of the processing, additives, and preservatives...way before dog food providers jumped on the bandwagon for all-around dog health. And even today, brands like Pedigree, Alpo, Beneful, and the like are still bad because of processing, unnecessary additives and inferior ingredients. Today's high quality canned are minimally processed, have higher quality ingredients, and the high moisture content helps to produce the right kind of saliva (mucus-rich, see below). Isolates, glutamates, and hydrolized proteins are big culprits in dental issues because of the effect they have on enzymes. Regarding kibble, because of how most dogs eat their food <chomp-chomp-gulp> the abrasive action that we assume they get from kibble is really non-existent. Another thing she said (which made total sense) was that because kibble is dehydrated 2 things can happen:
1. bits can get stuck under the gum line causing irritation and inflammation (just like in people, which is why we floss)
2. it messes with the type of saliva produced, serous vs. mucus, diminishing the productivity of saliva.
Regarding saliva:
>>Two basic types of saliva cells:
serous cells, which secrete a watery fluid, essentially devoid of mucus, and mucous cells, which produce a very mucus-rich secretion.
>>A dog fed dry dog food produces saliva that is predominantly serous, while dogs on a meat diet secrete saliva with much more mucus.
>>Lubrication and binding: the mucus in saliva is extremely effective in binding masticated food into a slippery bolus that (usually) slides easily through the esophagus without inflicting damage to the mucosa. Saliva also coats the oral cavity and esophagus, and food basically never directly touches the epithelial cells of those tissues.
Okay, so I did my best to try to remember everything she said...and remember it correctly. I was on information overload when I left!
Here you go:
If you are feeding high-quality canned (e.g.Fromm, Ziwi-Peak, Merrick, Wysong, Evo, Evanger's, etc) you are fine. Just be sure to give them (which I know you already do) antlers, marrow bones, dental chews, etc to chew on, staying away from anything that has xylitol in it. She also agreed with me on keeping some of the Petzlife Oral Care on hand...it really is super easy and my dogs think it is some sort of treat that I rub/spray on their teeth...and I'm not telling them otherwise!!
Basically, the reason canned food was seen as evil for so long was because of the processing, additives, and preservatives...way before dog food providers jumped on the bandwagon for all-around dog health. And even today, brands like Pedigree, Alpo, Beneful, and the like are still bad because of processing, unnecessary additives and inferior ingredients. Today's high quality canned are minimally processed, have higher quality ingredients, and the high moisture content helps to produce the right kind of saliva (mucus-rich, see below). Isolates, glutamates, and hydrolized proteins are big culprits in dental issues because of the effect they have on enzymes. Regarding kibble, because of how most dogs eat their food <chomp-chomp-gulp> the abrasive action that we assume they get from kibble is really non-existent. Another thing she said (which made total sense) was that because kibble is dehydrated 2 things can happen:
1. bits can get stuck under the gum line causing irritation and inflammation (just like in people, which is why we floss)
2. it messes with the type of saliva produced, serous vs. mucus, diminishing the productivity of saliva.
Regarding saliva:
>>Two basic types of saliva cells:
serous cells, which secrete a watery fluid, essentially devoid of mucus, and mucous cells, which produce a very mucus-rich secretion.
>>A dog fed dry dog food produces saliva that is predominantly serous, while dogs on a meat diet secrete saliva with much more mucus.
>>Lubrication and binding: the mucus in saliva is extremely effective in binding masticated food into a slippery bolus that (usually) slides easily through the esophagus without inflicting damage to the mucosa. Saliva also coats the oral cavity and esophagus, and food basically never directly touches the epithelial cells of those tissues.
Okay, so I did my best to try to remember everything she said...and remember it correctly. I was on information overload when I left!
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
-
- Working Dog
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:22 am
- Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
- Location: NH/hamptons/nyc
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
WOW! - such a good and helpful picture of the why's and wherefore's of dog eating.
so that can explain at least partially why TD had such good gums - almost no kibble his entire life. [ most of the dry was ziwi peak, and as you know, that is so different and even moist - but even that was on rare occasion.]
with the exception of some brief, early experimentation, the only canned food he ate was merrick. everyone here knows i always mention merrick quality because of the quality of their processing. many companies today hopefully have good ingredients, but i do not know which of these, if any, can match merrick's purchasing and processing standards. given the canned vs kibble topic and Stacy's enlightening findings, this might be the right time and place to explain this more fully.
about 13 years ago, there were several very comprehensive studies of dog food. i think it was WDJ but may have been johns hopkins u. that went way beyond ingredients and nutrition and studied the companies' methods of ingredient acquisition, processing of those ingredients, standards and safeguards. at that time, merrick was one of a handful of companies that had a complete ingredient/nutrition spectrum of the sort we demand today, but merrick i believe was the ONLY one that produced food equivalent to the very best today. even more importantly, it was the only one that was in touch with their supplies at the farm level, the only one that slaughtered animals in-house for their protein sources, the only one that kept to the highest human-food standards/regulations throughout their operations from meat,produce, and ingredients selection to every aspect and stage of processing, and the only one that controlled in-house every step of getting food from local farms into bags and cans.
i would love to know - if anyone can tell me?! - if there has been a similarly robust study in recent years. til i know that these other, newer foods that look so great on paper are manufactured with the same diligence merrick applies to everything they do, i will have a strong preference for and give benefit of the doubt to merrick canned or dry foods.
Stacy, thanks for your inquiries and reporting. i think i need to tweak the feeding regimen again.
so that can explain at least partially why TD had such good gums - almost no kibble his entire life. [ most of the dry was ziwi peak, and as you know, that is so different and even moist - but even that was on rare occasion.]
with the exception of some brief, early experimentation, the only canned food he ate was merrick. everyone here knows i always mention merrick quality because of the quality of their processing. many companies today hopefully have good ingredients, but i do not know which of these, if any, can match merrick's purchasing and processing standards. given the canned vs kibble topic and Stacy's enlightening findings, this might be the right time and place to explain this more fully.
about 13 years ago, there were several very comprehensive studies of dog food. i think it was WDJ but may have been johns hopkins u. that went way beyond ingredients and nutrition and studied the companies' methods of ingredient acquisition, processing of those ingredients, standards and safeguards. at that time, merrick was one of a handful of companies that had a complete ingredient/nutrition spectrum of the sort we demand today, but merrick i believe was the ONLY one that produced food equivalent to the very best today. even more importantly, it was the only one that was in touch with their supplies at the farm level, the only one that slaughtered animals in-house for their protein sources, the only one that kept to the highest human-food standards/regulations throughout their operations from meat,produce, and ingredients selection to every aspect and stage of processing, and the only one that controlled in-house every step of getting food from local farms into bags and cans.
i would love to know - if anyone can tell me?! - if there has been a similarly robust study in recent years. til i know that these other, newer foods that look so great on paper are manufactured with the same diligence merrick applies to everything they do, i will have a strong preference for and give benefit of the doubt to merrick canned or dry foods.
Stacy, thanks for your inquiries and reporting. i think i need to tweak the feeding regimen again.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka
- Stacy_R
- Training Dog
- Posts: 879
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:11 am
- Tell us about yourself: 3 dogs and graying hair thanks primarily to Tyson...
- Location: Carolinas
Re: CANNED vs. KIBBLE ??
My pleasure! I always love chatting with Diana and Ellen...they are a wealth of information and knowledge and do tons of research. They also encourage their customers to do their own research and are open to discussing contrary findings.johninny wrote:Stacy, thanks for your inquiries and reporting. i think i need to tweak the feeding regimen again.
And, again, I learned something today. That's always a successful day!!!
~Stacy
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org
Mom to:
Tyson - DS mix (Hendrix's Soul Sibling and Dinga Roo's long lost twin)
Baby Ruth - Miniature Schnauzer
Snickers - Miniature Pinscher
http://www.rescuedme.org