Bloat

[Karin]

I'm a therapist and was just working with a young woman who lost her dog very suddenly to bloat. We are working on bereavement and grief. Turns out it was a "shepherd". Got me thinking, is the DS prone to bloat given they sort of have a deep chest? Seems like it can happen so suddenly and with severe consequences.

[Raven]

I think you'll find that most of us treat the DS as candidates for bloat (based on old threads). Even if they aren't typical candidates, the measures for prevention certainly cause no harm.

[johninny]

it can happen very quickly to any of our dogs. i travel with and keep handy at home PEPCID tablets to administer at first sign of trouble. all it takes is for a dog to pick up and eat the wrong thing - aside from all the vet explanations one might get.

[Raven]

John, I've never heard of Pepcid being used to treat/reverse bloat.

1) I would imagine dosage is based on weight of dog? And possibly age, as in, not to be administered to dogs under the age of X?
2) Are there any ingredients that have been known to produce an adverse reaction in some dogs?
3) Isn't bloat a case of what happens after a dog eats (too large a meal/too much water, exercise after a meal/water, etc.) as opposed to what a dog eats?

[johninny]

OMG, i had written 3 complicated paragraphs to respond, was on the last sentence and it all disappeared. will come back later and try again.

[Stacy_R]

Here is a great video from Dr. Karen Becker on bloat...what it is, risk factors, treatment, etc. It is 11 minutes long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ay0vz7_LG8

Also, here are some ways to prevent bloat:
* Feed a species appropriate diet with no grains (no fermentable carbs).
* Divide the day’s ration into two - three equal meals, spaced well apart.
* Do not feed your dog from a raised food bowl.
* Make sure your dog does not gulp ... slow down their eating.
* Avoid feeding dry dog food that has fat among the first four ingredients listed on the label.
* Avoid foods that contain citric acid.
* Restrict access to water for one hour before and after meals.
* Never let your dog drink a large amount of water all at once.
* Avoid strenuous exercise on a full stomach.

I've never heard of using Pepcid to prevent bloat (I know it is used to treat gastritis and ulcers and upset stomach), but I don't think you can really reverse full blown GDV without going to the vet.

[Raven]

A big concern for me with Thor was the way he ate--it wasn't gulping--more like inhaling, which could include coughing from it; and then, of course, he was "wired" from it and bouncing off the walls. Traditional methods to put the screws to it and slow him down all failed, so I came up with a variety of solutions that work for him.

And for how many years were we told to feed dogs from an elevated bowl? (I wonder how long it will be until it's changed back or to something else....)

Bloat's scary stuff. I think sometimes it's a luck (or bad luck) of the draw.

[johninny]

Stacy, thank you posting all this. it will allow me to greatly simplify my attempt at re-creating my ''lost'' post. and your presentation is much better organized than mine was. in essence, there are a great number of variables that can individually result in or that can group together to result in bloat. as your list shows, one significant variable is WHAT is eaten - to answer Sharon's question. i devoted a lot of space to the interplay of those variables [ like combining 2 items on your list - going jogging with your owner too soon after eating too much, too rapidly, or any fermentable carbs. anyone feeding kibble that is not a-rated needs to bear this mind.] then i devoted a lot of space to certain kinds of food and how unpredictable responses can be - though in some cases it is also cummulative. and these foods might also be ''found'' by the dog. the whole issue is very much like grapes. people can feed their dogs grapes regularly with no problem, but the fact is, the 2nd grape might kill the dog, or the 932nd grape may do it; there is no way to know. on the other hand, if you give a dog a garlic-y dinner and take it for a run, you have made the odds of bloat go truly sky-high.
bloat and pancreatitis are both very tricky and very dangerous and so easy to produce very quickly in a dog if you are unaware of certain things. that is why i continually direct people to webMD's ''foods your dog should never eat.'' i will look at the video you posted and see if i should post more on food like i had tried before, but maybe you have made any further input from me a moot point.

now, the Pepcid - or sugar-free TUMS. i keep both for the dogs [ only for the dogs: my gastro system seems made of steel, so i have never once in my life used such a product - so i am very serious about combating the RISKS of bloat ] but travel only with pepcid because the pills are so small. the chances of a dog surviving full-blown bloat even at the vet is not that great. my vet school journals said quick treatment on the spot [ with tums or pepcid ] is best way to get a successful outcome. this can be either catching it early and prevent the need for more dramatic intervention or, at the other end, buying the time to seek and get professional intervention and keeping it stable enough so that vet intervention has a better chance to succeed.

as to age and dosage, the view was that bloat is bloat and needs action whether a pup or a senior. i do not remember if risks of too much tums or pepcid in a dog WITHOUT bloat was discussed, but the article i read saw no downside when bloat is present. a mix in my head of the article and discussions with vets over the years is dosage is a judgement on the spot. at vet's direction over the phone and on my own, i have a couple times years back given one pepcid upon potential [ early ] signs of bloat. if i were to confront a more severe situation where there IS sudden bloat, then i would administer 2 or more. like aspirin in a heart attack, you then want a lot of it and you want it fast. [ i have very low blood pressure and a miraculously great ratio of good to bad cholesterol, but i carry pepcid for the dogs and aspirin for me on/in my keychain.]

one tums or 1 pepcid will not harm a dog. as i try to be hyper aware of any change in mood or physical behavior of my dogs, i am usually very quick to pick up on gastro-intestinal dis-comfort and then check for abnormal abdominal tightness. if i find any, i watch like a hawk and would consider 1 pepcid early on if the tightness progresses [ to VERY tight or to expansion], but i think in 13 years i have done that only 2 or 3 times [ which happy to report resulted in quick and very noticeable end to the observed discomfort].

[johninny]

Sharon, you posted while i was writing.
there is a lot of luck involved [ the dogs finding their own supply of forbidden ingredients, whether garlic in a garden, compost, or a well-meaning stranger ], but i think much of the perception that it is luck is due to the fact that so many variables are at work and any one or more of them can set off a chain reaction.
that same vet school journal article from 13 years ago said a raised eating surface contributed to the risk of bloat; unfortunately, i did not store in my memory anything related to the research or reasoning behind that.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Sharon, my dude does the same thing as your Thor, right down to the energy high right after. Nothing we've tried results in his food behind finished in under 30 seconds. I'm currently hand feeding to control his intake. I'd be curious to hear how you helped Thor with this.

Bloat is very scary. My friend's dog had it while we were there. Thankfully it was caught fast enough, but it makes you very vigilant afterwards.

[Raven]

First, in reply to John's reference of sugar-free Tums and as assurance for anyone who may not know: xylitol is toxic to dogs and is found in many sugar-free foods and non-food items. It's appearing in more and more foods and non-foods, so check ingredients first. Not saying it's in Tums, but it's in a lot of stuff and I imagine could probably get replaced in Tums as a sweetener without notice.

A friend of mine lost her rescued pigs because the manufacturer added an ingredient to the feed that was toxic to pigs; when my friend called the company, their reply was: Well...we took the picture of a pig off the bag. Seriously, that was their answer--and remedy for adding lethal ingredients to a feed that had been used for pigs (as well as other domestics) for years.

Just sayin'...we all need to be super-vigilant to notice changes manufacturers make, especially when dealing with "for human consumption" items that get dispensed to animals.

As for how to slow down Hendrix, I started doing the same thing as you're now doing (feeding by hand) after large rocks in his dish, muffin tins, and the "Buster" food dispenser failed. (The hand-feeding was good when he was younger, too, as a reinforcer/reminder that he gets to eat when I say so, that I control what he does, when, and how, etc.)

Along the way, here's what worked, what's used, and sometimes together.

Nuts--it won't let me paste a photo of something--I'll come back; I don't want to get timed-out.

[Raven]

Okay....

KONG Genius Mike. It's not so genius (easy to work), but it slowed him down nicely. He came to just lie down with it between his paws and casually pick up one end with his mouth so food would dribble out the other end. (To be honest, in the beginning he was throwing it.)

I also put snacks like a piece of carrot or dry popcorn in it. Waaaaay back when, I kicked it once by accident and a snack flew out...so ever since then, he's been known to throw it at, or drop it on, our feet when I put something a little too big in there. Yep, my dogs are always smarter than I am.)

34.5 ounce plastic Folger's coffee cans (they're food-grade) with the lids. I put his food in different, smaller Kong dispenser, then inside the coffee can and put the lid on.

Sometimes with the Genius Mike, I put it one-end down in the coffee can, stuff lids in around it, and put his touch-tub on it. The tub comes right off; it just adds to the work he has to do for everything. He does, however, have to eat more slowly since the Mike is kinda stuck and only so much will fall out at first. Then he has to get the Mike out...blah-blah...and then there's some food that fell out of the bottom end of the Mike into the coffee can, which he has to push over and nose around to get the food out.

Sometimes, but it's not the best, I just put the food in the coffee can with the lid. He quickly learned that if he grabs the can by the pre-formed handle and applies pressure, the lid POPS off. He can't get his full face in the can, so he pushes it over, eats what falls out, gives another push, etc., like I said above.

He goes through coffee cans in no time.

He has to bring me whatever item or items I decide to use (he knows tons of objects, and not just his things). After the first couple times I told him to bring his bucket (touch-tub), he tried putting it on the coffee can himself. (My fault...I didn't tell him to hand it to me. Slacker.)

There's another way I feed, too, but I'm drawing a blank.

It sounds like a lot of work/activity before/during a meal, but it really isn't. It's low-key, movement is low-impact and minimal.

After dinner, he gets an "after-dinner mint." He's told to get his "bedtime bone" (a two-ended Kong with small holes that go all the way through each end). I shove pieces of carrot (whatever) in toward the center of the holes and he goes to relax with it, gnawing peacefully away. (We go through a number of these particular Kongs a year.)

He had to learn there's no play after breakfast and dinner. I give it at least an hour. And he's cool with that.

[johninny]

Sharon, wow - a great point. in fact, it sent me running to the medicine cabinet to check my bottle. to get to the FULL list of ingredients, i had to peel off a simplified label. no xylitol, but i should note that this bottle was purchased before xylitol usage migrated outward from chewing gums and became an issue for dogs - so any new tums ingredient list would have to be carefully inspected in FULL [ ''peel here'']. vets for many years have simply referred dogs to pepcid, so there may or may not be a message there.

more important, i do not ALWAYS think to look at package ingredients EVERY time i make a purchase of familiar products for the dogs. TUSSIN products come specifically to mind. they have a bunch of non-xylitol sweeteners in them, but it would be cheaper for the manufacturers and healthier for the human users if those ingredients were replaced by xylitol, so it may have been only a matter of time before i picked up a bottle and was lax about reading the label. i am a great label reader, but clearly not as good [i.e., perfect] as i have to be given the very important point you have made. you may have saved a few animals with your post's message: read everything every time.

[LyonsFamily]

I've never heard of using pepcid. I use Gas X at the first sign of any gas/bloat problems. That's what my vet recommends too, 2X the adult dose. I pop one down the throat and chew one and put it on the dog's tongue.

[Karin]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I've never worried about this before but just thinking about the shape of the DS and the pain of my client caused me to ask. For her it was tragically sudden. He vomited clear bubbles but was moving and exposing his stomach for pets, not pacing or drooling. But was acting needy. She went to work, four hours later took him to the emergency vet an hour away, told he needed a $3000 surgery, too much dead tissue, and was euthanized. Very very sad. Woke in the AM and all was fine, in the PM she lost her best friend. She will get through it, in acute traumatic grief right now, lost without her anchor. I will get Gas X and Pepcid tomorrow.

[johninny]

Karin, thanks for bringing it up.
Stephanie, you seem to be very close to competent veterinary people; if sometime it is convenient and right for you, would you mind asking [ maybe the vet that recommends GasX ] if there is a thought that Gas X would work in a different way to produce a better, quicker, or more sure response in the case of a dog's bloat than would pepcid? or one better than the other depending on circumstances? it may make a difference, may not - my only familiarity with the subject is through dog health and my received advice is quite old - maybe even pre-dating the existence of Gas X as a product [ certainly my awareness of it through advertising!]. anyway, it is good to know there are a variety of options in an emergency.

[Stacy_R]

I will pipe in what I know while we are waiting for Stephanie to get with her vet (and I will ask mine when I go in today and report back). But here is what I know off the top of my head:
Pepcid is a histamine blocker used to treat gastritis and ulcers and upset stomach (basically acid and symptoms of acid issues).
Gas X is used to treat extra gas/gas bubbles in the stomach and bloat specifically.

[johninny]

ok, thanks. it sounds like i need to get Gas-x - and in true emergency - if that ever happened - throw the entire arsenal at the problem [??]. do you think simultaneous use of pepcid and gasX would be contra-indicated in a really serious situation [in order to cover all bases] because they would interact in a dangerous way?

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

Thanks so much Sharon! I'll try some of these with the little guy!

I didn't know about Gas-X. I'm curious about the Gas-X and Pepcid combo in a true emergency too.

[Stacy_R]

Okay, so here is what my vet said:
She was an ER vet for a while and saw many bloat cases. Basically, by the time you figure out that it is bloat, anything you throw in their mouth won't make it to the stomach anyway because the stomach is already flipped and twisted. I am not saying she is right or wrong...just reporting back.