What do you RAW feeders like to feed?

[Tripmomma]

Hi, Kitsune is 10 weeks, been on Taste of the Wild puppy kibble (wish my feed store carried Acana or Orijen but they don't) since we got her. Our local meat market makes a raw dog food poultry blend...it is all poultry base (mostly chicken and turkey) but he can add whatever you want into the blend. This week we have added this blend to her kibble and she loves it, already looks like she put on weight...she was only 10 lbs at 9 weeks (the litter had to be handfed 100% from day one on so they have always looked to be a week younger than they really were...hopefully she will eventually catch up to where she should be). The blend is cool, bones and everything all ground up into almost an unwrapped sausage consistency, he sells it for $1.60 lb. We also buy her knuckle and marrow bones there...she loves those too.

I'm curious about anything that I should ask to be added to the blend? Beef, liver, etc? I don't really know what a good raw diet should consist of. Also how much should she be getting? We still feed her three times a day. At her weight the kibble bag says 1 cup a day, so we have been breaking that up over the three feeds, then add about 1/4 cup of the raw blend to it. Does this sound good? These feel like silly questions, but it has been 10 years since we had a puppy LOL.

Thanks!

[Raven]

I'm hoping a few of our members who feed raw will hop on with information for you. Meanwhile for you, I've heard good things about Yahoo raw group. There's random posts on this forum, but they lack the guidance you are requesting.

[Tripmomma]

Thanks, I will check it out.

[LyonsFamily]

I feed chicken quarters, duck halves, pork brisket bones for my bone in stuff, occasionally venison during hunting season. For the meat, I prefer beef, pork, and turkey hearts along with chicken gizzards. It's also very important to make sure you're feeding 10% organ meet, with at least half coming from liver. Chicken liver is the easiest to get, but I order a lot of pork liver to get an extra protein type in and because it's cheaper.

That being said, I'm not a big fan of grinds. For one, they're really expensive. I feed for about $0.70/lb with whole meats. I order in bulk every 3-4 months and have a chest freezer for it all.

Most of the grind is from scraps and cheaper cuts and you're paying a lot for the service of having it ground up. It is nice for puppies, but not something I would do long term. You also don't have complete control of the portions. Often times, the butcher isn't very educated about what a dog needs and you end up with too rich of a grind, or not enough or way too much bone. That can lead to diarrhea or incorrect growth and development in a puppy. If you're going to feed a puppy raw and don't know what you're doing, something like Blue Ridge Beef, Stella and Chewys, or Nature's Instinct will make sure it's actually balanced. They also don't get the dental and mental workout from ripping and crunching larger cuts.

[Tripmomma]

Thanks!
I will have beef heart and liver added to the blend. I do plan to do more bone in stuff when she is older too. We will still be feeding a commercial kibble in addition, so I am not too worried about hitting the exact proper and balanced amounts.
That said, I would rather learn how to feed appropriately instead of spending more money on premade raw diets like Stella and Chewy. I will keep researching.

[Stacy_R]

I use chicken quarters, whole rabbit, quail, and pork spare ribs for bone in. I add in other meats to get the ratio right. I do rotate in grinds for variety (Stella and Chewy's and Primal) and ease.

If you are wanting to switch a puppy to raw, I would go with pre-made until you can research the correct ratios and I would suggest joining a raw group online.

There are 2 Yahoo groups that I know of: Rawfeeding and Raw-Lite.
Rawfeeding is hard core and they will tell you that you are killing your dog by mixing kibble and raw. And they won't mince words. They also don't believe in any sort of supplements (except for fish oil and vitamin e).
Raw-Lite is more moderate and they take into account that not everyone can source/afford prey-style raw. They are very helpful and there is one member who is a breeder and raises Akitas on raw. (Obviously, this is the group I prefer ).

I would suggest joining one of those.

[Tripmomma]

Thanks. I will go join the lite group

I did just read on here somewhere that feeding kibble and raw together in the same meal is a no-no. We stopped doing that yesterday.

We will keep on the blend for now, the meat market makes it for pets specifically, I am having beef heart, kidney and liver added to the next batch at 10% each, the rest would be chicken, turkey and bones. When you add stuff they have a 30lb minimum, so this may be just right to get us to a point where she can eat more bone in stuff. We have some salmon that my husband caught in the freezer that she will get too. She will still get her kibble as well for now...though the more I learn and do this I could see us switching to raw for 90%+ of her meals.

[LyonsFamily]

I am having beef heart, kidney and liver added to the next batch at 10% each, the rest would be chicken, turkey and bones.

You're just asking for diarrhea at that combination and those high percentages. Organ meat should only make up 10% and adding it in a meal with beef heart will make it even more rich. If you're going to do those 3 together, at least decrease it to 5% each.

[Raven]

Per your comment about feeding her salmon your husband caught:

There's a thread (I think it's under a thread I started about "taking the plunge to RAW" this summer) where there was discussion about feeding salmon raw, about freezing it below a certain temp/below normal temps to kill particular parasites....

Stacy and John are the ones who provided information. I hope they chime in.

[racingiron1]

The salmon statement tripped a buzzer for me because I was one of the ones involved in that thread Raven mentioned. The title is "RAW--Took The Plunge, But...." and it's currently about ten threads down in this section (of course that will probably change over time). Here's the link to my post in that thread:
http://www.dutchshepherdforum.com/viewt ... mon#p36475

John's comments at the time made me curious, so I looked into it. There is a fluke found in salmon that is VERY dangerous to dogs. To ensure raw salmon is safe, it needs to be commercially frozen at -35F for 15 hours, or you can freeze to -4F for 7 days. Your average home freezer probably doesn't get that cold...

[Stacy_R]

I am having beef heart, kidney and liver added to the next batch at 10% each, the rest would be chicken, turkey and bones.

You're just asking for diarrhea at that combination and those high percentages. Organ meat should only make up 10% and adding it in a meal with beef heart will make it even more rich. If you're going to do those 3 together, at least decrease it to 5% each.

Stephanie is right. While heart is considered a muscle meat for raw feeding purposes, it is very rich (nutritionally, it lies between muscle and organ) and in the combination you described, you are asking for trouble.

The basic formula for raw is:
80% muscle meat (heart and lung fit here, but nutritionally are in between)
10% bone
10% organ, with at least 5% of that coming from liver

As far as salmon goes. There is an issue with flukes. If the salmon is not frozen at an appropriate temperature for the right amount of time, the fluke is not killed and can be fatal to dogs. ANY WILD CAUGHT MEAT should be deep frozen for at least a week to kill any parasites. There is a thread in this section that deals with the issue. Just search "salmon"

[Tripmomma]

I will adjust to 5% of each...or just 10% total of the 3 items, Thanks.

I did know about the parasite issue, but it has been frozen a long time. The salmon was seal packed at the doc, and has been in our freezer for 2 years. We don't plan to eat it, so I thought the dog could have it. It wasn't deep frozen, but do you think 2 years in a regular freezer is good enough? If not we could cook it, and give it to her cooked right? I did read somewhere that cooked fish is fine, that the bones stay soft. Is that correct?

[Raven]

There is a fluke found in salmon that is VERY dangerous to dogs. To ensure raw salmon is safe, it needs to be commercially frozen at -35F for 15 hours, or you can freeze to -4F for 7 days. Your average home freezer probably doesn't get that cold...

This should be a sticky. Information is clear and succinct.

ANY WILD CAUGHT MEAT should be deep frozen for at least a week to kill any parasites.

Excellent warning.

Thank you, both.

[Stacy_R]

I did read somewhere that cooked fish is fine, that the bones stay soft. Is that correct?

My rule is no cooked bones...ever. Cooking changes the properties of bone and reduces their digestibility. If it were me, I wouldn't.

[TheBlacks]

I have been feeding my dogs raw food for more than 10 years. My pit bull that we had for 14 years was extremely allergic to chicken and grains. Thus we put her on a raw diet. Just before we got Kratos my husband found an article stating that when you have a puppy just starting them with one type of meat is good and slowly adding different types (i.e. beef, poultry, lamb). Kratos eats lots of beef different cuts sometimes ribeye cut up, ground beef, ground lamb, beef ribs etc. I will also add in several times a week organs. I like to do liver, heart, kidney’s etc. I stay away from pork there is way too much fat and I can’t remember why but it is not recommended. The only pork they eat is bacon once in a blue moon. They also get beef soup bones which I find out here Winco. They are the perfect size and around $1.20 a pound. I will also give them carrots and sweet potatoes that are raw to eat as a snack.

I really can’t say enough how great a raw food diet is for a dog and their health. It took me three years to convince my dad to put his dog Teco on this diet. All the vets kept telling my dad that his 6 year old Aussie had severe arthritis and that he should try acupuncture and give him pain medicine. After spending over $3000 in vet bills I finally convinced him to switch to raw food. It took about a month and he was a totally new dog! He is no longer on any pain medicine and is now running and playing like he used to.


Side note for people who want to feed their dogs raw but can’t afford it.

I live near Portland Oregon and I was able to join a co-op raw food meat group where I pay a membership fee which is very low and I get to pick out the meat for my dogs every week. The group has relationships with several of the local grocery stores where we get the meat that has or is just about to expire. I am able to come home with hundreds of dollars of meat for my dogs and it cost me less than feeding them a large Orijen bag a month. I can’t tell you the number of times my dogs eat better than me! My favorite cut for them is the beef tongue! It sounds odd but the meat is perfect for them. The only reason I mention this group to everyone is because it really is an amazing way to feed your dog raw food and other dogs in your area. We created a co-op and the agreement with the stores is that this food is and will only be eaten by dogs. I hope this idea and concept may help other people who want to feed their dogs raw but can’t afford to.

[LyonsFamily]

I stay away from pork there is way too much fat and I can’t remember why but it is not recommended.

You'll find this is much different with a working/herding dog. Fat is important as it's where they get their energy. Dutch Shepherds will almost always have a constant battle of looking too skinny. You'll feed a whole lot less if you add in fat. We have quite a few malinois and DS in our raw feeding co-op and everyone is always adding fat or dealing with seeing a bunch of ribs or overfeeding and getting digestive upset without weight gain. I feed about 1.25lbs a day if I'm feeding pork, but chicken is around 2lbs a day, sometimes more if it's skinless.

The bad thing about fat is when you add fat trimmings and mix it with kibble that has the fat sprayed back on the food. It's an over saturation and can lead to pancreatitis and that's usually why it's recommended to not give dogs fatty table scraps, especially in those pre-holiday articles. When it's part of a balanced raw diet and the dog doesn't have pre-existing medical issues such as cushings disease, it's very beneficial and essential.

[TheBlacks]

I agree fat it important I just stay away from pork. I find that beef and lamb have more than enough fat depending on the cut of meat. I actually have to make sure I don't feed Kratos too much as he is a tank. He eats about 1 1/2 lbs to 2lbs of raw each day. But I can't say enough about about the raw diet. The only non raw food he gets is hotdogs for training. I am trying something new today. I just cut up some hot dogs and put them in my dehydrator so I can make hotdog jerky for treats when I am training him. I wanted to reduce some of the slime factor.

[LyonsFamily]

I agree fat it important I just stay away from pork. I find that beef and lamb have more than enough fat depending on the cut of meat. I actually have to make sure I don't feed Kratos too much as he is a tank. He eats about 1 1/2 lbs to 2lbs of raw each day. But I can't say enough about about the raw diet. The only non raw food he gets is hotdogs for training. I am trying something new today. I just cut up some hot dogs and put them in my dehydrator so I can make hotdog jerky for treats when I am training him. I wanted to reduce some of the slime factor.

You can also throw hot dog pieces in the microwave and they puff up into little treats.

If you have a dehydrator, try making treats out of turkey and chicken hearts. They're super simple, I just use kitchen shears when they're partially frozen and cut them up like you would hot dogs.

[TheBlacks]

Yeah we have the excalibur dehydrator which works awesome! I will try out the turkey and chicken hearts next. I am also going to do some chicken strips. I don't trust the chicken strips you can find at the stores for dogs. I have noticed that they will say it was packaged in the USA but if you look closer the chicken was imported from China.

[Stacy_R]

I will also add in several times a week organs. I like to do liver, heart, kidney’s etc.

FYI - for the purposes of raw feeding, heart is considered a muscle meat, not an organ. If you are factoring heart into your organ percentages, your ratios will be off.