Kidney Health

[Jussume]

Hauss is 4 years old. His vet claims his blood work came back very high on his kidney function. She prescribed Hills Science Diet dry for him. I slowly over 2 weeks switched him to this dry food. It seemed like this food was causing indigestion, burping with horrible odor. Week 3 when it was complete prescription food, I knew it was causing him to have an upset stomach. I could hear his stomach gurgle. I temporarily put him back to his raw diet dry food my son was buying for him and called the vet. She recommended Pepcid 20mg/day. 2 days of Pepcid he won't eat any dog food. I tried softening it with warm water and a tablespoon of this horrible looking canned food that came with dry. He smells the food and goes to sit in his waiting spot waiting for me to release him from his feeding area. He will still eat snacks so I have to assume he won't eat because it makes him feel sick. He's not a dumb dog. From day one he has smelled everything you offer him to eat before he thinks about eating it. I have found some sites that have recipes for homemade dog food and sell supplements to add to the food for health and all recommendations say low sodium and high moisture. Hills food has one of the lowest moisture percentages I have seen on the label. I am not able to get on this site as often as I use to but if anyone has any ideas, knowledge or suggestions for reputable holistic/alternative food companies, I would appreciate it. I can't let the dog starve.

[Stacy_R]

You're going to get a lot of opinions on this...feeding is very personal.
IMO Hill's Science Diet is one of the worst foods out there. In this particular instance, if you are feeding the k/d prescription, it is 60% carbs and no real meat...not even any sort of meat meal.

Questions:

1. What brand of "raw diet dry food" was he on before? And was he having any issues before the bloodwork?
2. Did you fast Hauss for 12 hours before bloodwork?

Also, it is not completely uncommon for hemocrit and BUN levels to come back slightly elevated in a raw fed dog. Calcium and phosphorus levels could also be off--either too low or too high depending on the diet.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

I put H on Pepsid at one point on the advice of a vet and swore never again. That stuff is nasty in a dog's system. Is he off the Pepsid now?

When H went off Pepsid he didn't really want to eat for a day after. I just offered him extremely small meals often of boiled chicken then boiled chicken and goat's milk/yogurt then started a slow transition back to his kibble he was on at the time.

If he's having GI upset, the slippery elm syrup Stacey recommended in a thread I started (called "acid reflux" I believe) is now my standby when H gets GI upset. If it's real bad the colostrum she also suggested with slippery elm syrup works.

Hauss may also be attempting to fast himself or eat smaller quantities more frequently to soothe his stomach. Are you trying to get him back onto his regular food now?

[Stacy_R]

Hauss may also be attempting to fast himself or eat smaller quantities more frequeyntly to soothe his stomach.

Excellent point.

Slippery Elm Syrup:

Thoroughly mix 1 slightly rounded teaspoon of slippery elm powder in 1 cup of cold water. Bring to a boil while stirring constantly. Then turn down the heat to simmer and continue to stir for another 2 to 3 minutes while the mixture thickens slightly. Take it off the heat.
For dogs: add 1 tsp. honey (do not add honey for cats).
Dosage: 1/2 to 1 tsp. for small dogs; 2 tsps to 2 tablespoons for medium dogs; and 3-4 tablespoons for large dogs.
*refrigerate unused portion
** I like to give it in between meals to coat the gut as well as add it to their meals

Colostrum is excellent for recovery whenever a dog is or has been sick.

I'm still interested in knowing which levels were off on the blood work, if Hauss was fasted before the draw, if he was having any issues before the blood work, and which "raw diet dry food" he was on and for how long....

[Dutchringgirl]

I am in agreement with Stacy. Hills is crap. Also, Thalies levels are always a bit high because of raw feeding and my vet knows this so they know she is okay. We do keep an eye on it so I can adjust her feeding if need be.

[LyonsFamily]

Can you get a copy of the blood work and post it here? I'd be interested in what levels are high and how high they are, especially compared to other things. I'm no vet, but I do run bloodwork on my dogs frequently and also feed raw, so I know what normal levels are and what a raw fed pet may look like, I also have access to Idexx levels and recommendations through my clinic and could do some comparisons. If your vet won't give you a copy of the CBC, that would be a big red flag there.

[Jussume]

Thanks for all the help. No one told us to fast before blood. Vet said the numbers were extremely high. He was originally eating and drinking fine. He seemed to be constipated a couple times a month apart. I had noticed blood on the sheet I let him lie on when on my bed so I began searching him for injury. I found a drop of blood on his penis and brought him in thinking he had infection. This is when vet said his numbers were extremely high and put him on science diet. Then his stomach was becoming upset so she said pepsid (I have heard of pepto but never pepsid). 2 days of that and he refused everything. I finally got him on his Prairie food I believe and chicken. He went for one month check and they now say he is in kidney failure, she wants him in hospital 3 days infuse fluid, do untrasound and check for lyme disease. She tells me if they can find the cause they may be able to extend his life 1-2 years. He is not even 5 years old. I am going to try to prepare chicken for him and feed him that. My son said it was not raw diet, the one he was feeding him nature's variety, prarie. I will try to get the blood work from them.
I really can't lose another dog so soon. This is killing me. We do not have a lot of money to throw around as I lost my job in October and my son has a baby on the way.

[Jussume]

according to vet Hauss' blood work on month apart is as follows:
BUN: 113 to 118
Creatin 6.3 to 6.9
She also said his cholesterol is 372, Sugar 116, AMA 3,669 and should be 1469

any ideas?

[Dutchringgirl]

they didnt tell you to fast????? What is with these vets. Mine always tells me to fast even though they know I am very knowledgeable.

[Jussume]

No they did not and the second opinion vet I asked and she said sometimes they do but not usually. We will be seeing them on Monday. He does not even want chicken to eat this morning. I have to wait until his stomach feels better then try again. According to the vet its the kidneys making him nauseous and has nothing to do with the food. I wonder if it's coincidence or the food change they had me do as that seems to be when he was not hungry anymore. Before the vet once in a while he didn't want to eat but usually ate well. I hate seeing him like this.

[Dutchringgirl]

oh i am so sorry this is going on so long. Big Hugs!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Food change, Im not sure, i have changed food cold turkey and my girls are fine with it, but who knows, they eat dead things and deer poop too.

[Jussume]

Some animals can do well with food change but I've even seen humans go down hill with sudden food change. The body gets use to living off of what it is fed and taking that all away and giving it something new is never good so I have never done a complete change over. However Hauss is the only dog I have had that smells food before eating it and now that he does not feel well, he will not eat dog food at all. If he sees me prepare chicken of beef for him he will eat it but not much. Tuesday if the second opinion is the same, we will admit him for fluid infusion and an ultrasound to see if they can find the cause. The kid did get him from what I suspect is a puppy mill out in Oklahoma and he came to us with a parasite so it is possible he was born with it. I just hope they can give him more than 2 years he's still a baby. (

[Stacy_R]

This chart is taken from Dr. Jean Dodd's website:

TEST RESULT RAW FED DOGS KIBBLE FED DOGS NORMAL VALUES
Hematocrit 51.0 ± 6.6 – 53.5 ± 5.6% 7.6 ± 6.1% 37 – 55%
BUN 18.8 ± 6.9 – 22.0 ± 8.7mg/dL 15.5 ± 4.7mg/dL 6 – 24mg/dL
Creatinine 1.20 ± 0.34mg/dL* 1.07 ± 0.28mg/dL 0.4 – 1.4mg/dL

Hematocrit: Hematocrit is the measurement of the percentage of red blood cells in whole blood. Decreased Hematocrit (anemia) can be caused by poor nutrition, parasites or chronic disease including cancer and liver disease. Increased values (dehydration) are more of a concern with the dry kibbled fed dog than the raw fed dog because of the lack of moisture of the diet. Raw fed dogs are also more likely to get adequate iron and vitamin B from their higher quality protein diets.

BUN: Blood Urea Nitrogen is a waste product derived from protein breakdown in the liver. Low levels are most commonly due to inadequate protein intake, malabsorption, or liver damage. Increased levels can be caused by kidney damage, certain drugs, low fluid intake, intestinal bleeding, exercise, heart failure or decreased digestive enzyme production by the pancreas. Raw fed dogs typically have higher BUN levels because they consume more protein.

Creatinine: Creatinine is also a protein breakdown product. Its level is a reflection of the body’s muscle mass. Low levels are commonly seen with inadequate protein intake, liver disease, kidney damage or pregnancy. Elevated levels are generally reflective of kidney damage and need to be monitored carefully.

Cholesterol should be 92-324
Glucose should be 70-140
And I have no idea on the antimitochondrial antibodies... Maybe Stephanie can chime in...

[Stacy_R]

Wow...okay so the chart didn't paste right.. Let's try this again:

Hematocrit in raw fed dogs: 51.0 ± 6.6 – 53.5 ± 5.6%
Hematocrit in kibble fed dogs: 47.6 ± 6.1%
Normal values: 37 – 55%

BUN in raw fed dogs: 18.8 ± 6.9 – 22.0 ± 8.7mg/dL
BUN in kibble fed dogs: 15.5 ± 4.7mg/dL
Normal values: 6 – 24mg/dL

Creatinine in raw fed dogs: 1.20 ± 0.34mg/dL*
Creatinine in kibble fed dogs: 1.07 ± 0.28mg/dL
Normal values: 0.4 – 1.4mg/dL

Hematocrit: Hematocrit is the measurement of the percentage of red blood cells in whole blood. Decreased Hematocrit (anemia) can be caused by poor nutrition, parasites or chronic disease including cancer and liver disease. Increased values (dehydration) are more of a concern with the dry kibbled fed dog than the raw fed dog because of the lack of moisture of the diet. Raw fed dogs are also more likely to get adequate iron and vitamin B from their higher quality protein diets.

BUN: Blood Urea Nitrogen is a waste product derived from protein breakdown in the liver. Low levels are most commonly due to inadequate protein intake, malabsorption, or liver damage. Increased levels can be caused by kidney damage, certain drugs, low fluid intake, intestinal bleeding, exercise, heart failure or decreased digestive enzyme production by the pancreas. Raw fed dogs typically have higher BUN levels because they consume more protein.

Creatinine: Creatinine is also a protein breakdown product. Its level is a reflection of the body’s muscle mass. Low levels are commonly seen with inadequate protein intake, liver disease, kidney damage or pregnancy. Elevated levels are generally reflective of kidney damage and need to be monitored carefully.

Cholesterol should be 92-324
Glucose should be 70-140
And I have no idea on the antimitochondrial antibodies... Maybe Stephanie can chime in...

[Jussume]

Well thank you for the information. I assume this is what my son was looking at. His research so far has claimed stage 4 kidney failure with numbers like that. I don't know what to think but the second opinion vet, even though sounds like she is afraid of aggressive dogs did ask that we fast before the blood work. I'm wondering if I should change the date to start him on Wednesday instead of Tuesday while we wait to see what the other vet has to say. I just don't want to wait too long if he is in such horrible shape. Other than not wanting dog food anymore, he has not lost ton of weight but he does drink a ton of water. I don't want to risk a recovery which vet seems to think is not likely.

[Jussume]

Well thank you for the information. I assume this is what my son was looking at. His research so far has claimed stage 4 kidney failure with numbers like that. I don't know what to think but the second opinion vet, even though sounds like she is afraid of aggressive dogs did ask that we fast before the blood work. I'm wondering if I should change the date to start him on Wednesday instead of Tuesday while we wait to see what the other vet has to say. I just don't want to wait too long if he is in such horrible shape. Other than not wanting dog food anymore, he has not lost ton of weight but he does drink a ton of water. I don't want to risk a recovery which vet seems to think is not likely.

[Owned-By-Hendrix]

So you'll start him in the hospital Tuesday and the 2nd opinion vet check is on Monday? Waiting another 24 hours may not be a bad idea, if you feel he's not in terrible shape and drinking fine, and depending on how the 2nd vet visit goes.

Is Hauss muzzle trained? If he's comfortable in a muzzle, it might be worth it to take him to the vet in a muzzle provided he's comfortable and you can still feed him treats in it. If H is in a mood and doesn't want to be nice to the vet, she'll leave the room, let me muzzle him, then have me stand/sit in front of him and put a towel over his head, sort of like a blinder so he can only see me. I basically talk to him and pet him and hold his collar/lead, making sure he doesn't turn around, comforting and reassuring him, while they draw blood from his hind legs. I'm told it's less sensitive back there...? This works really well for my dude but use your best judgement with Hauss. Remind the techs and vet that if they're timid or afraid around him, he'll pick it up and use it.

[LyonsFamily]

Assuming AMA is amylase? That's the only one I can think of being on a regular CBC and that range is 337-1469, so it aligns with what your vet said should be the norm and it's something that when increased suggests renal disease.

"Normal" Ranges according to IDEXX include:
Glucose 63-114mg/dL
Amylase 337-1469mg/dL
BUN 9-31mg/dL
Creatine .05-1.5mg/dL
Cholesterol 131 - 345 mg/dL

So, the glucose and cholesterol are decently close to the normal range and wouldn't be surprising if the dog is raw fed and wasn't fasted. I generally don't fast my dogs, but they don't eat breakfast and they don't get done until the afternoon, so it happens to be a 16 hour or so fast anyway due to timing.
Those other numbers are really high, even for a raw fed dog, and the fact that they're climbing is alarming as they're all related to kidney function.

The upset stomach and other symptoms are all signs of renal failure and may not even have anything to do with the food. The sudden food change may just be exaggerating it. Other than a genetically defective kidney just failing prematurely, the cause could also be some sort of kidney infection due to stones or something else, or a urinary blockage might be the cause, or even poisoning, or Lepto. At this point, you should be looking for the cause and treating that. Lepto is starting this time of the year and dogs vaccinated can still present for the disease and not show other signs since the vaccine slows the bacteria, but doesn't fully prevent it.

Was a urinalysis also performed to try to figure out the cause? Any suggestions for an X-ray/contrast to look at the kidney?

As for what food you should try, kidney disease needs less concentrated protein, higher moisture, and lower phosphorus. A dehydrated raw diet or any of the "premium" dry kibbles like Orijen or Acana that are very high protein, or kibbles that are higher in harder to digust protein such as soy sources, may be too much for the kidneys to process. If you're going with kibble, a senior diet that has lower phosphorus from a limited ingredient food without corn, wheat, or soy would be better. You can also feed fresh raw, but you have to watch the phosphorus levels feeding bone. Canned food is always a good option to make sure you're getting the moisture, but getting quality stuff for a big dog will be pricey.

Dog Food Advisor has a list of diets that are considered low protein, but still rank high. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog- ... dog-foods/

[johninny]

Stephanie, given what you say about the POSSIBILITY of Lepto - and given the fairly rapid decline in kidney function - do you think that pending a more definitive answer [ assuming one is even found in a timely manner ] to what is wrong that a proactive administration of penicillin might be a good course to take? could that do any harm at this point? --especially since Lepto can be difficult to find.

[Jussume]

Hauss was given antiboitic (not Penn.) when he was first brought in as we were suspecting a uti or kidney infection. Numbers were higher the month after 2 weeks of antibiotic treatment.