When to Neuter Tyson?

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When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by nvd »

Tyson, our almost 6 months old Dutch Shepherd is (we think) getting near the age to become nutless..

He was born June 12/14, so is almost 6 months. He was the runt, not sure if this matters or not, he is all healthy and what not but seems to be "delayed" with things like loosing puppy teeth and getting his adult teeth. Also just growing, but maybe not as everyone always is saying how big he is getting? hard for us to tell I guess.

He is currently almost 55 lbs.

All of they vets we have spoken to say at 6 months is when to neuter him. I just want other peoples input. He is not going to be a police dog or anything but would like to maybe train in some agility or tracking or who knows!

Thanks in Advance!
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by LyonsFamily »

For any large breed dog, especially if you're planning on doing agility, you should wait until the growth plates are closed. For a male, I'd wait 18 months. For females, I prefer after the 2nd heat. Most growth plates close around a year, so if you're really desperate, holding out another 6 months would be the minimum if you want Tyson to reap the benefits of correct hormones for growth.
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by nvd »

Thanks for the response.

As for agility, we currently do not have any future plans but maybe minor stuff for fun!

Why do vets and a lot of people say around 6 months? is this strictly to "lower energy/drive" and health benefits? or are there other major reasons for doing it at a younger age ie. 6 months.

We do not mind waiting longer or what ever the case is just want whats 1)best for the dog 2)suits our needs..(for a family dog) 3)maybe some tracking or agility but not much..
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by karenz »

I had Xander done at 7 months exactly. My vet said much after 7 months they have developed and gotten into the habit of there male instincts. So since Xander is a pet and any agility stuff we do is strictly for fun at home I had him neutered at 7 months. The vet said there may be a slight effect on energy after being neutered but it would not change who he is (drive). I haven't noticed any difference since him being neutered other than he doesn't hump his dog bed any more and I don't have to worry about him trying to run off to find the ladies.

I was told health wise neutering reduces male types of cancer, etc... My vet also said that neutering early effects the growth plates. But with what Xander is intended for he said 7 months should not have a big effect on him. I think I read somewhere that they may actually grow bigger if they are neutered because of the growth plates. But I can't confirm this. I feel Xander is average size at 19 months, around 70-72 pounds and slightly over 26 inches.
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix »

Scientifically there's a lot of conflicting research. I could pull all the articles from journals I've seen for you. There's stuff that says it reduces risk of this cancer but ups chances of others, more cases of HD or knees/leg problems, less likely hood of injury, larger dogs, smaller dogs... The effects are basically still fought over but most research is agreeing latter is better. There's a few studies that suggest neutering early is better for attitude and aggression before that first swing of hormones in the 5-7 month mark. More research agrees with later. Here's an article that does a somewhat decent job of generally summarizing what's out there: http://www.chicagonow.com/training-the- ... t-fit-all/
It's not the best and the author is clearly an anti neuter supporter, but he gives a good general summery of research. As for attitude: it really only affects sexual aggression. Marking is considered more of a learned behavior not a hormone driven one (case in point neutered dogs that still mark), and having a 16 month old wandering isn't an issue but I don't leave him out in the yard. I haven't seen much of a difference in him besides currently he seems to be going through a final hormonal swing which sometimes makes him stupid and requires a firmer, patient hand but he gets the idea.

That being said a lot of boarding and day care places won't take an I neutered dog after 6-7 months, so if you use those services that could be a consideration. If not it's also easy to find dog sitters. So balance what your family needs are with the dog's needs and I think you'll be fine. Keep in mind a lot of vets will think the protection urges should soon be appearing will be driven by testosterone. While minorly true (in my own life is see when mine is in a hormone upswing he's a bit more protective, but I have only seen this starting recently), neutering doesn't have that big of an effect because it's genetic within this breed (and Mals too).
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by karenz »

Owned-By-Hendrix wrote:So balance what your family needs are with the dog's needs and I think you'll be fine.
I agree with this completely. I know several people with working dogs and otherwise that do not neuter. It isn't a problem for them and it serves the needs they have.

I personally chose to neuter because I never intended to breed Xander. I didn't want an accident that resulted in pups. Xander isn't left outside alone for extended periods of time but he is left occasionally for short periods, 15 minutes or so. Our neighbors have unspayed females.

I didn't want him humping things, especially my dad's ds that stays with us. I also had a jack russell who air humped and left disgusting little messes to clean up.

I also did not want him to be aggressive towards other male dogs. He does not "play" with a bunch of other dogs but there are two that he "plays" with. They are not neutered. He "grew up " with them. My friends got a puppy at the same time.

Luckily Xander does not "mark" so that is a plus.

I didn't neuter in hopes of less energy or drive but for these other reasons.
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by johninny »

Kira, are actual studies evenly balanced?
it has been my impression that actual scientific studies came down consistently and MARKEDLY on the side of no neuter/18-month neuter, and that all else was just spouting the pseudo-science conventional ''wisdom'' that was promulgated to reduce puppy production. there is the accuracy of what Stephanie said, and then there are all these real studies over dogs' lifetimes that show dramatic increase of health and reduction of disease.
it used to be you were told neutering would reduce cancer risk, but it turns out that the only cancer risk that is not INCREASED by neutering is testicular cancer - for obvious reasons!
[ when i got TraceDog at 6 mos off the streets, i took him to the vet almost immediately and was told he should be neutered to reduce cancer risk; so he was neutered then. then came the subscriptions to WDJ and tufts and j hopkins vet school journals and i was horrified and ashamed that i had blindly taken the vet's advice and of what i had done to his future health; still am! ]
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix »

Oh yeah the studies are rarely balanced. A lot of pro-neuter at a young age cherry pick data or have conclusions not supported by the data. A few anti-neuter ones do the same but generally they're more solid in the evidence. I've even seen a few studies manipulate the calculations to force conclusions they wanted. I'm saying as a general person perusing the research you'll see almost a 1:1 ratio for "studies" on pro/anti neuter debate over the years with different reasons/causes. I leave the decision making up to the one reading the research. A lot of it isn't really research in my personal opinion as it's more qualitative than anything, and a lot of it nails common neuter myths to the wall with reasons why it's false. I agree waiting is the optimum approach but if you can't, you can't.
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by Mobil »

Mobil was neutered at five and a half months. I read the following:


http://skeptvet.com/Blog/wp-content/upl ... d-Cats.pdf

and it offered multiple perspectives and info from multiple studies. I have a male and a female, so the primary reason was because I wanted to make sure to get him before sexual maturity left us with a bunch of puppies, but after reading the info presented by the Skept vet, I felt the biggest risk for him was that because neutering allows them to grow for longer, he would likely end up being taller. I'm fine with that.
It was a risk to benefit decision, and the benefits for us outweighed the risks. that might not be the case with others and their dogs, so I don't think there is really a blanket recommendation that applies to all situations and dogs, especially considering that some diseases/disorders/problems that might be increased/decreased as a result of neutering are breed/class specific.

How's that for muddy water?
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by Raven »

Owned-By-Hendrix wrote:a final hormonal swing which sometimes makes him stupid
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It was due to circumstances, but Thor was neutered at 18 months.
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by LyonsFamily »

I just watched this video from Dr. Karen Becker weighing some pros on waiting to spay/neuter or choosing to just sterilize and not remove all reproductive organs. If you have 30 minutes to sit down and watch it, it's definitely worth it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enPCZA1 ... e=youtu.be

Odin was neutered around 5 months. He's definitely taller than he should be. He's topping out around 25-26". I don't really mind the height. It definitely made him taller, but also lankier. He's built a lot of muscles since being put on raw and supplements and doing physical therapy, but that was after he hit maturity at 3-4 years. Now, he does have a spinal problem which is probably genetic, but he also has arthritis in his hips that could be a result from the early neuter.

Rokko (my last foster) was neutered around 4 months and was 27-28" tall. He had some of the worse rear end awareness I had ever seen in a non dysplastic dog. His rear had very little angulation and it definitely would've hindered his working ability if he was to do any sport work. He's a much loved pet now, so thankfully it doesn't change how much he's loved or how valuable it is. The video talks about the reasons and how removing the hormones can alter growth plates and cause that.

I will say I lived with 3 intact male English Setters growing up and showed them in conformation and Juniors before moving out (they live with the parents now) and they're all still intact. They're a sire and 2 littermate sons. No aggression is present among them, they haven't caused any unwanted pregnancies, and they're very healthy. The oldest, Winston, will be 11 this spring and his sons will be 7. Elli, my spayed female, humps more than them.
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by Mobil »

Mobil is 25" right now and about 70 pounds. there didn't used to be a huge size disparity between him and turbo, but he towers over her now. She's 22" and about fifty pounds. I know that's about right for female DSDs, but I do wonder if she was the runt, because her legs seem too short for the length of her body. Makes her look dwarfish.

When do they typically reach full size?
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by LyonsFamily »

Mobil wrote:Mobil is 25" right now and about 70 pounds. there didn't used to be a huge size disparity between him and turbo, but he towers over her now. She's 22" and about fifty pounds. I know that's about right for female DSDs, but I do wonder if she was the runt, because her legs seem too short for the length of her body. Makes her look dwarfish.

When do they typically reach full size?
Height wise, around a year. They don't really fill out muscularly until 2 or 3. Odin had a huge change around 4. His chest dropped significantly and he was really able to gain muscle.

Maybe those heights and Turbo's short legs indicate something else is mixed in with the Dutch Shepherd? Elli's only 20.5" and 46lbs (gained 4lbs as of yesterday wooohoo!) and is definitely the smallest of the 3 littermates I know of with her one brother being quite tall and 80lbs, but she's pretty proportionate.
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by Mobil »

LyonsFamily wrote: Maybe those heights and Turbo's short legs indicate something else is mixed in with the Dutch Shepherd? Elli's only 20.5" and 46lbs (gained 4lbs as of yesterday wooohoo!) and is definitely the smallest of the 3 littermates I know of with her one brother being quite tall and 80lbs, but she's pretty proportionate.

that's totally possible since we don't know about their lineage. Or perhaps Mobil's proportions mess with my head and make me not think she looks normal? I dunno. Here he is, then her.

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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by LyonsFamily »

Mobil wrote:Or perhaps Mobil's proportions mess with my head and make me not think she looks normal? I dunno. Here he is, then her.
I totally get that. Everyone assumes Elli is a puppy when they see Odin first. We'd had Odin for a year and a half before getting her and she was 2 at the time I brought her home. When I first brought her over to my parent's house, they insisted that she was a 7 month old puppy and somebody messed up her paperwork even though we know where she came from and I have friends that have been around her since she was 12 weeks old.

I can't tell much from those photos. Good standing ones would be better, but I know how hard they are to get to hold still.
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Re: When to Neuter Tyson?

Post by Mobil »

LyonsFamily wrote:
I can't tell much from those photos. Good standing ones would be better, but I know how hard they are to get to hold still.
OMG this is so true. Eleven tries later, a peanut butter covered carrot was the trick.

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