Puppy growth take 2?

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brindledog
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Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Puppy growth take 2?

Post by brindledog »

Grendel seemed to be putting on 2.5 lbs a week between about 3.5-4.5 months old. Now at 5 months she's only 38.5 lbs and doesn't seem to have gained anything in a couple weeks. She IS getting taller, but I'm wondering what to expect in the long term.

To me she looks so tiny (compared to my old dog who was very tall and averaged 80lbs as an adult), and i'm not sure how she could possibly hit even the 60lbs that vet and others have predicted. I keep reading that most growth happens up to 6 months, but no way she's going to put on 15+ lbs in next month! Her mom and dad were both good sized, so what's the deal?!

On another note- she seems completely deaf to me and immune to treats lately. I'm feeling frustrated and depressed about her lack of response to me when there's any distraction around. Even at home she won't come when called. Is my dog deaf or is she kind of dumb?!

I have a private trainer coming tomorrow and hope he can help get things moving in the right direction....

I also took her to a dog club and she is VERY sensitive per everyone there. Is this the same as "weak nerves"? :(

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Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by Dutchringgirl »

I always say, dont expect anything, as long as she is happy and healthy, thats it.

She may have lost her treat drive, i never like using food anyway for teaching or anything, unless thats all you have is food drive. Go for fun toys now and work on her toy drive.

What do you mean Sensitive to everyone there ?? They are not people dogs, they are herding dogs.
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brindledog
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Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by brindledog »

Very "sensitive" to everything. I.e. kind of anxious/nervous. Easily distracted by things and fearful/ defensive. One trainer referred to her as "aloof" and tried to couch the nervousness in a less negative manner but essentially said she may not be a great candidate for certain work due to her temperament. The trainer I'm currently working with said she will need extra work to get her over her anxiety but, thankfully, she does recover quickly with appropriate encouragement, so not a lost cause.
At the dog club the other dog owners said she would need extra work due to her sensitive, i.e. nervous, nature. As one person put it, she seems to have a conflict between her strong prey drive and her lack of confidence.
Hopefully working with a professional trainer now will curb a tendency toward fearfulness.

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Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by Dutchringgirl »

She sounds like my Sadie. Sadie has excellent work ideals but is so nervouse and anxiouse it is an internal battle.

Please remind me again what you are doing with her? She should be fine but I agree she will need slow progress, make very sure you watch her and learn her body language and do not push her at all to progress faster than SHE wants to.

With a solid dog, you can push them and see what they do, if it goes wrong, you may just loose some blood but the dog usually is okay, but with a dog like this, you can not push them at all.

Believe me, Sadie is like this and I have to go by what she tells me in her progress.

She may never be a solid fearless dog, she may, but what ever you do, let her lead the way .
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Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by cordeliandemon »

aloof is part of the DS breed description im pretty certain, your dog will go through many phases where they apparently go "deaf" or "forget" everything theyve learned and you essentially need to start from scratch, im having my third round of this at about a year and a half old.
as for growing dont worry about it shes not going to mystically stop growing at 5 months, even past a the year old point demon has continued to get larger not just in bulk but his body also seems to have gotten longer and taller.
-demon late autumn
IMG_0302.jpg
-demon last week
IMG_2432 (1).jpg
you pups still growing but a watched pot never boils so be patient, also if shes getting taller but staying the same weight her calorie needs may have increased so consider adjusting her meal sizes slightly
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Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by Dutchringgirl »

cordeliandemon wrote:aloof is part of the DS breed description im pretty certain, your dog will go through many phases where they apparently go "deaf" or "forget" everything theyve learned and you essentially need to start from scratch, im having my third round of this at about a year and a half old.
Yes, I agree, but there are also the DS's that are insecure and afraid of everything, these should not be taken lightly and brushed off as aloof or "deaf".

With a dog like that, as my Sadie is, if you just treat them as " its just part of who they are" you are looking for alot of trouble and can make them worse and more aggressive if you dont respect that they are insecure.

Sadie at 6 now, will always be insecure and will get more brave but she will never be as sold and secure as Thalie, thats okay, I respect her and how she is and let her tell me what she is ready for and how she wants to approach something.
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Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by cordeliandemon »

i agree lisa, i focused my response on the original query about growth and weight as you seemed to have the rest covered already:)
Sadhbh (pronounced "Sive", its an irish name) -
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Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by Dutchringgirl »

cordeliandemon wrote:i agree lisa, i focused my response on the original query about growth and weight as you seemed to have the rest covered already:)

:DSlove:
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brindledog
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Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by brindledog »

So, I want to follow up on the growth thing...
Grendel will be 7 months this Thursday, 6/9.
She just got back from 3 weeks at the board and train and she appears to not have grown AT ALL during the time she was gone. She is very thin. The trainer said Grendel is in perfect working dog shape and had a ton of exercise while away. The few weeks before she left, Grendel was still gaining an average of 1.5-2+ lbs./week.
I'm concerned that Grendel has not grown in height or weight at all in 3 weeks. I have not yet weighed her, but if the trainer is correct in the weight she got a week or so ago, Grendel actually LOST 3 lbs while away. Judging from how thin she is, that would not surprise me.
How likely is it that she will have a growth spurt after 7 months? Even the trainer expressed surprise that she had not grown at all. Initially she thought Grendel would be larger than the trainer's small Mal, now she's saying Grendel is very small and may not grow much more.
I find it hard to believe that a 6 month old puppy would not grow at all in 3 weeks. I fear she got too much exercise and it interfered with her growth.
It also seems really weird to me that a dog with two parents ranging from 55-70+ lbs. could end up so small.
Thoughts?

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Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by MultiPurposeK9 »

You said you found the dog filthy and flea ridden but, you have actually seen the parents and you are convinced it is a GSD/DSD X? I think you are putting way to much thought in this. Weight is weight and if you are feeding correctly and she is healthy free from parasites, that's her weight. Her parents weight is not important, it was her parents weight and doesn't mean she will follow suit. From what you describe the dog has no confidence or courage, which true working dogs have hard wired in them. Ringgirl is right, mess around with confidence and courage and they may come up the leash. I guess the bottom line is she is what she is and that may never change so enjoy her for what she is not what you want her to be.
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brindledog
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Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by brindledog »

After 3 weeks with the trainer, she is still, and always will be, a nervous dog. That said, the trainer was very impressed with Grendel's ability at bite work and would like me to continue with it, not only because Grendel enjoys and is good at it, but also because trainer feels it will continue to build confidence. She also said Grendel would be great at many dog sports. Apparently she was well loved by the trainers that worked with her.

As for convinced she is a GSD/DS mix? Yes, of course. I met both the parents and their breeds were apparent. In addition, the trainer, who works at the Michael Ellis school, trains sport dogs and has both a Mal and a DS mix, has no doubt that Grendel is DS, and has remarked numerous times that she is totally DS in her behavior and thinking.

As for the comment about filthy and flea ridden -Why couldn't a DS/GSD mix be filthy and flea ridden? Are they immune to filth and fleas? I know they are amazing dogs, but that certainly doesn't make them impervious to the same afflictions of other puppies and dogs! Clearly the statement was made to cast doubt on Grendel's heritage, but it's an irrational connection to make. Why someone would have a problem with my dog's background is beyond me, but please, keep it to yourself.

And the statement that confidence and courage are hardwired into them- pardon me, but that is an ignorant and ridiculous statement and, even if it were 100% true, does not take into account environmental factors. The trainer believes something affected Grendel in her very early life to cause her nervousness, but it could just be her temperament. If all working dogs had the courage and confidence wired in them, how does one explain the numerous pure bred mals, DS and GSDs that are anything but confident and courageous? I do believe I've read of some purebred DS on here that are nervous and fearful. Does that mean they must not be DS?

All that said- my question was not about what Grendel's breed may be, but whether her lack of growth should concern me and if excessive exercise while away could have contributed to it and/or caused any other harm.

Thanks,

Lisa
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Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix »

It could be she's slower to grow. I know it sounds like a lot of "could be"s but they will grow and stop and grow and stop (it seems to us). How much does she weigh now? She may be a genetic one off and be a "pocket DS", it can happen, or she could just be taking her time growing. Slower growth is better for the plates. Some days I thought H was done growing and then two months later I would look up and he was taller. He did a lot of filling out from 18 - 24 months. At five months someone told me H would be double his size full grown. He isn't. More like... one and a half times his 5 month old size.
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Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by brindledog »

I just weighed her. She's 44.4 lbs. She's lost 2 lbs. in the 3 weeks she was gone. She's about 22" tall at the withers.At most she gained a 1/2" in height while away. She is very, very thin. From above her waist is VERY narrow. Vet just told me to up her food.

I get that working dogs are supposed to be lean, but I didn't think that would apply to a dog under 12 months. Both Grendel's vets thought she looked great before she left and when she had more meat on her body.

I'm mostly concerned that she was getting too much exercise with the trainer. She does not agree with the 5 minute per month rule, which I was not aware of when I sent Grendel to her. Her take is that all dogs get arthritis, no matter what, and so as the puppy isn't getting forced runs or jumping, they'll be fine. That goes against what our regular vet and our very reputable holistic vet have told me.

Not sure what to think. I know this woman is experienced with working dogs and I know that Grendel was working with other trainers familiar with her breeds. But I'm having hard time reconciling her attitude about exercise with everything I've been told.

At this point I'm just going to increase her food as directed and give her a bit of a break on the exercise and see how it goes.

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brindledog
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Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by brindledog »

At least her teeth are full sized....
Grendel with tug smaller.jpg
Grendel with tug smaller 2.jpg
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Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix »

At just shy of 45 lbs for under a year (and that's on the lighter size), that's a pretty decent size. H was around 52 lbs about a year. She seems right on track for a DS height wise too. I think breed standard for females are between 22-24 inches at withers.

As for the 5 minute rule, it's more of guideline until roughly 6 months I believe. Trying to keep a DS pup quiet after an allotted amount of exercise time is up, well, you are braver than I am! lol I started drinking the liquor store out of business after 3 months. :) I used it as a guideline for walks mainly.

For the exercise, once they start really moving, it's very hard keeping weight on them. There's a few members on here with lots of land and they can attest that the dogs are skinny because they are constantly moving. I believe one member was even feeding up to 4 lbs raw a day. I know when we go out to the country to train, H can eat 6 lbs raw (about 4x his normal amount) and he's still skinny - drops about 5-7 lbs. Part of the breed when they really get moving. They're never emaciated, but you can see they carry lean and skinny naturally. She'll put it back on once her system gets used to not moving as much and her caloric needs drop. For a DS, there's no such thing as too much exercise (in their minds), so I wouldn't worry about that unless she was doing agility jumps for 6 hours a day. The trainer is correct - the dog will regulate their exercise needs and for DS it helps strength the muscles they need to prevent injury. As long as they aren't being forced past exhaustion and into harmful repetitive movement, the dog regulates how much is enough and when to rest. This breed is heartier than we give them credit for. Not saying your vets are wrong, just that when it comes to DS, they are true working dogs that most vets don't have a lot of experience with, so they are slightly different than an average house dog.
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brindledog
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Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by brindledog »

Thank you very much for your reply. I really appreciate it. I am relieved by what you've said.

Admittedly, I was expecting Grendel to be substantially larger due to her GSD half. She def has noticeable physical characteristics of a GSD (her legs are shorter, her back end is thicker/shorter), and her dad was good sized. I guess it's wait and see.

I'm surprised about her size being average for a DS of her age. I have read the standard (and of course she is only 1/2), and though the measurements/weight are smaller than a GSD, most of the DS I have seen around here are apparently on the larger size. Definitely tall and, in the case of one purebred DS at the dog club, a female that was the size of a large GSD, but due to the legs, taller. My neighbor's DS is not huge, but certainly on the larger size.

I was really worried about the exercise thing messing with her growth and joints, but now not so much. I am upping her intake and will see how it goes.

Thank you again for your thoughtful response!

Lisa
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Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by centrop67 »

For comparison sake, Radar was 42lbs when I took him from the shelter. He was estimated to be 11 months old. He did not look sickly skinny like Leela did when I got them.

He is now 64lbs.

I have had a few people tell me he is too skinny, but I don't believe that for one second. He is lean and muscular, and that is the best health-wise he could be.
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Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by ICE »

ICE has always been very very skinny. I know how you feel regarding that... He is a very tall guy though. I tried upping his food but it was a very slippery slope, if I gave him too much he would be runny. I started using CPN vertex a month or so ago and I really like it. ICE has put on some weight. He will always be a thin guy because he is so active but he is in really excellent shape and the vertex has helped him add a few pounds.
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brindledog
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Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by brindledog »

Thanks, all!

Funny, this reminded me of how when my old dog, a large brindle shepherd mix, was an older puppy/young adult, people would tell me she was way too skinny. One time when she got out of the yard, someone in the neighborhood came to my door and angrily accused me of animal abuse, showing me a can of dog food she "had" to feed my starving dog. Due to her speed and skinniness, I wondered if she was part greyhound.
She wasn't, and filled out later, but I'd totally forgotten about that until reading these posts.
Still wonder if she might have been part DS. (seems unlikely due to when and where I got her...).

Thanks again!

Lisa
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Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Re: Puppy growth take 2?

Post by brindledog »

Grendel is now 7.5 months old. After getting back from the 3 weeks board and train, she had a horrible stomach issue that is only now getting better, 3 weeks later. She's been to vet a few times, with another visit scheduled tomorrow. There's some concern about absorption issues and immune system.
Thankfully she's no longer having diarrhea every time she goes to the bathroom, but her digestion is far from stable. *sigh*
What's more, though she has gained some weight, she has not grown even a fraction taller. In fact, she has remained the same height since she left for the training. What dog stops growing in height at 6 months?

In addition to the growth and stomach issue, she seems to be having problems with exercise intolerance. Whereas before she could run and run and run some more, she now gets tired way sooner than I (or the trainer) expect for her breeds and age. The trainer was concerned last week when she showed up and Grendel just seemed too tired to care about a lesson. She asked what we'd been doing beforehand and was surprised when I told her just a walk to the park. She, like the vet, expressed concern about absorption/ possible EPI.

I really hope she is ok. At least she is less lethargic than she was a few days ago.

One of the really crappy parts about her feeling bad is that I noticed a regression to her nervous/anxious behavior. As she has started feeling better, her demeanor is greatly improving

At least the training was helpful! People keep saying she is like a different dog.
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