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PPD, too friendly?

Puppies! We all love our puppies.
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Tyler Durden
Puppy
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:00 am
Tell us about yourself: I have always had german shepherds but I am new to dutch shepherds. I hope to get a new pup shortly and look forward to learning and sharing my experience.

PPD, too friendly?

Post by Tyler Durden » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:10 pm

I got my pup to train to be a personal protection dog, most people are afraid to pet him, but with the few that have my pup falls to the floor with the belly up and then licks the person pushing his head into them. I was told to let people pet him, but I sometimes feel like he's too friendly and may not have what it takes to be a PPD. I'm beginning to think that I should just not let anyone pet him anymore, can someone with more experience chime in?
Thanks, he's 7.5 months and bites the sleeve with no problem but it has only been with the trainer which he knows.

Tennessee3
Puppy
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:29 pm
Tell us about yourself: GSD puppy in training for Schutzhund

Looking to add a Dutch for the same + PP work, once my current puppy is titled.

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Tennessee3 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:06 pm

Based on the pups age, you're asking a question that's split into two camps.
Group 1 will say Yes, you can tell what a dog's going to be by that age and I wouldn't trust him to be a PP dog.
Group 2 will say No, you can't tell what a dog's going to be by that age and if he's willing to get on the sleeve that bodes well.

There's also a secondary debate in your question (with a rough correspondence to the above split but not 100%) with some people thinking a dog should respond on the sleeve to any helper & the other side thinking the foundation work should be established by a single trusted helper to get the dog exactly the way you want it, before you increase difficulty by using different helpers.

Personally I fall into camp 2 and think hormones, mental maturity, learned responses (training) and confidence are too influential of forces to discount and say a 7 month old pup is how he's gonna be (temperamentally).

If it was me I'd relax and continue with training, develop the dogs confidence and drive, let nature make it's changes and see where I was at in a year or so. But I'm of the opinion that friendliness to non-aggressive people isn't a bad thing for a PP owner, and in fact is preferable to a sharper dog as I don't have the same legal protections and recognized respect of personal space that is afforded to a Police Officer & his K9.

Tyler Durden
Puppy
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:00 am
Tell us about yourself: I have always had german shepherds but I am new to dutch shepherds. I hope to get a new pup shortly and look forward to learning and sharing my experience.

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Tyler Durden » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:47 pm

Tennessee3 wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:06 pm
Based on the pups age, you're asking a question that's split into two camps.
Group 1 will say Yes, you can tell what a dog's going to be by that age and I wouldn't trust him to be a PP dog.
Group 2 will say No, you can't tell what a dog's going to be by that age and if he's willing to get on the sleeve that bodes well.

There's also a secondary debate in your question (with a rough correspondence to the above split but not 100%) with some people thinking a dog should respond on the sleeve to any helper & the other side thinking the foundation work should be established by a single trusted helper to get the dog exactly the way you want it, before you increase difficulty by using different helpers.

Personally I fall into camp 2 and think hormones, mental maturity, learned responses (training) and confidence are too influential of forces to discount and say a 7 month old pup is how he's gonna be (temperamentally).

If it was me I'd relax and continue with training, develop the dogs confidence and drive, let nature make it's changes and see where I was at in a year or so. But I'm of the opinion that friendliness to non-aggressive people isn't a bad thing for a PP owner, and in fact is preferable to a sharper dog as I don't have the same legal protections and recognized respect of personal space that is afforded to a Police Officer & his K9.
When he was younger he would behave sharper especially at night. Part of me thinks that all he's known thus far is that people are generally good. I had made a previous thread about introducing scenarios, maybe having him bark off an intruder, and I was advised against it. He comes from some pretty serious knpv lines and if I can be totally honest he is the least mature of all my previous dogs at this same age. Another person told me to not take things too fast especially with these types of dogs. It's just when I see him lick and fall to the floor with the belly up all I see is submissiveness, but it may very well be just normal puppy stuff.

Steve Gossmeyer
Training Dog
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm
Tell us about yourself: Schutzhund helper and trainer I own and work two Dutchies
Location: Long Island

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:33 am

Let him grow up! People do too much with young dogs... to me people that work young dogs a lot are worried that the dog won't have it at an older age or they don't know behavior enough to see what they have! You said it yourself he needs to mature!!! I'll let a dog sit and just be a dog until he shows me he matured... this is why I waited to start training Yoda till he was almost 4 years old!!! I believe one helper should develop a dog to make it reliable!!! Two many people do different things and have different programs! Stick with your training and when the dog matures you'll have a better understanding! As far as the social aspect goes.. I'd much rather have a confident social dog that will turn on vs one that has to show people how tough he is! To me that's insecurity! Yoda is indifferent to people f**k with him or me and you have a problem but when he was young he was a social butterfly!!! Now he's got my back no one is messing with me around him

Steve Gossmeyer
Training Dog
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm
Tell us about yourself: Schutzhund helper and trainer I own and work two Dutchies
Location: Long Island

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:36 am

Tennessee3 wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:06 pm
Based on the pups age, you're asking a question that's split into two camps.
Group 1 will say Yes, you can tell what a dog's going to be by that age and I wouldn't trust him to be a PP dog.
Group 2 will say No, you can't tell what a dog's going to be by that age and if he's willing to get on the sleeve that bodes well.

There's also a secondary debate in your question (with a rough correspondence to the above split but not 100%) with some people thinking a dog should respond on the sleeve to any helper & the other side thinking the foundation work should be established by a single trusted helper to get the dog exactly the way you want it, before you increase difficulty by using different helpers.

Personally I fall into camp 2 and think hormones, mental maturity, learned responses (training) and confidence are too influential of forces to discount and say a 7 month old pup is how he's gonna be (temperamentally).

If it was me I'd relax and continue with training, develop the dogs confidence and drive, let nature make it's changes and see where I was at in a year or so. But I'm of the opinion that friendliness to non-aggressive people isn't a bad thing for a PP owner, and in fact is preferable to a sharper dog as I don't have the same legal protections and recognized respect of personal space that is afforded to a Police Officer & his K9.
Agree 100%

Tyler Durden
Puppy
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:00 am
Tell us about yourself: I have always had german shepherds but I am new to dutch shepherds. I hope to get a new pup shortly and look forward to learning and sharing my experience.

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Tyler Durden » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:51 am

Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:33 am
Let him grow up! People do too much with young dogs... to me people that work young dogs a lot are worried that the dog won't have it at an older age or they don't know behavior enough to see what they have! You said it yourself he needs to mature!!! I'll let a dog sit and just be a dog until he shows me he matured... this is why I waited to start training Yoda till he was almost 4 years old!!! I believe one helper should develop a dog to make it reliable!!! Two many people do different things and have different programs! Stick with your training and when the dog matures you'll have a better understanding! As far as the social aspect goes.. I'd much rather have a confident social dog that will turn on vs one that has to show people how tough he is! To me that's insecurity! Yoda is indifferent to people f**k with him or me and you have a problem but when he was young he was a social butterfly!!! Now he's got my back no one is messing with me around him
So the ears back, and tale wagging, and falling on his back with the belly up isn't a sign of submissiveness? He does this when people give the "ohh my god what a cute little boy" in a baby voice. He has never shown signs of fear around people. I just thought that there are certain early signs that I should look for, I'll just chalk it up to him not maturing yet...heck he still hasn't lifted his leg to pee.

Joxgirl
Training Dog
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: Brought a Dutch Shepherd into our lives.
Location: Southern California

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Joxgirl » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:34 am

Awwww. I like Steves idea to let puppy be a dog. 😍 As long as he has manners to start with. My girl is only five months. I'm loving this puppy phase. It's so short in the scheme of things. I am not knocking anyone who knows more dog stuff than I do. I admire all the training owners give their dogs. Nothing wrong with it. I'm just speaking from my own backyard. ⭐️🌈
Saralee
Rogue (Dutch Shepherd)-19 weeks old.
Phoenix (Lab rescue) -10 y/o
Charley (Malti-Poo; rescue)-4 y/o

Steve Gossmeyer
Training Dog
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm
Tell us about yourself: Schutzhund helper and trainer I own and work two Dutchies
Location: Long Island

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:00 am

Tyler Durden wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:51 am
Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:33 am
Let him grow up! People do too much with young dogs... to me people that work young dogs a lot are worried that the dog won't have it at an older age or they don't know behavior enough to see what they have! You said it yourself he needs to mature!!! I'll let a dog sit and just be a dog until he shows me he matured... this is why I waited to start training Yoda till he was almost 4 years old!!! I believe one helper should develop a dog to make it reliable!!! Two many people do different things and have different programs! Stick with your training and when the dog matures you'll have a better understanding! As far as the social aspect goes.. I'd much rather have a confident social dog that will turn on vs one that has to show people how tough he is! To me that's insecurity! Yoda is indifferent to people f**k with him or me and you have a problem but when he was young he was a social butterfly!!! Now he's got my back no one is messing with me around him
So the ears back, and tale wagging, and falling on his back with the belly up isn't a sign of submissiveness? He does this when people give the "ohh my god what a cute little boy" in a baby voice. He has never shown signs of fear around people. I just thought that there are certain early signs that I should look for, I'll just chalk it up to him not maturing yet...heck he still hasn't lifted his leg to pee.
Sounds to me he just needs to mature! He'll be just fine

centrop67
Site Admin
Site Admin
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:42 pm
Tell us about yourself: Human companion to Radar and Leela
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by centrop67 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:07 pm

I seem to recall seeing a cartoon where a dog is commanded to protect against an attacker, and in the cartoon the dog says to the handler "but he doesn't have that sleeve thing on his arm."

I couldn't find it, but I am sure someone else here has seen it.
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Dutchringgirl
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Posts: 4867
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Dutchringgirl » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:56 pm

centrop67 wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:07 pm
I seem to recall seeing a cartoon where a dog is commanded to protect against an attacker, and in the cartoon the dog says to the handler "but he doesn't have that sleeve thing on his arm."

I couldn't find it, but I am sure someone else here has seen it.
its funny because its true. When you are training for fun, the dog will only bite if there is something on the arm or body. For the police dogs, they will train to bite skin.

Now, on the other hand. One day while driving trough town, there was a guy in a big puffy donut suite and Thalie went ballistic, I had to close the window or she would have jumped out and bit him.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
ImageImage

Steve Gossmeyer
Training Dog
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm
Tell us about yourself: Schutzhund helper and trainer I own and work two Dutchies
Location: Long Island

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:13 pm

Dutchringgirl wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:56 pm
centrop67 wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:07 pm
I seem to recall seeing a cartoon where a dog is commanded to protect against an attacker, and in the cartoon the dog says to the handler "but he doesn't have that sleeve thing on his arm."

I couldn't find it, but I am sure someone else here has seen it.
its funny because its true. When you are training for fun, the dog will only bite if there is something on the arm or body. For the police dogs, they will train to bite skin.

Now, on the other hand. One day while driving trough town, there was a guy in a big puffy donut suite and Thalie went ballistic, I had to close the window or she would have jumped out and bit him.
I never have this issue! But I select dogs that will bite someone! Yoda know the difference between ipo and being a real ppd! When you have good genetics it doesn't matter! He's never done anything but ipo his whole life but there's been a few situations where he's tried to bite people acting stupid around me! And in the car forget about it lol

Tyler Durden
Puppy
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:00 am
Tell us about yourself: I have always had german shepherds but I am new to dutch shepherds. I hope to get a new pup shortly and look forward to learning and sharing my experience.

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Tyler Durden » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:03 am

Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:13 pm
Dutchringgirl wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:56 pm
centrop67 wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:07 pm
I seem to recall seeing a cartoon where a dog is commanded to protect against an attacker, and in the cartoon the dog says to the handler "but he doesn't have that sleeve thing on his arm."

I couldn't find it, but I am sure someone else here has seen it.
its funny because its true. When you are training for fun, the dog will only bite if there is something on the arm or body. For the police dogs, they will train to bite skin.

Now, on the other hand. One day while driving trough town, there was a guy in a big puffy donut suite and Thalie went ballistic, I had to close the window or she would have jumped out and bit him.
I never have this issue! But I select dogs that will bite someone! Yoda know the difference between ipo and being a real ppd! When you have good genetics it doesn't matter! He's never done anything but ipo his whole life but there's been a few situations where he's tried to bite people acting stupid around me! And in the car forget about it lol
So, my breeder did the hidden sleeve test with both my pups parents and they bit. He made serious eye contact with them, made a loud noise and a threatening gesture with his body and they bit with no hesitation. BUT, just 10 seconds before that he had random people come up to the dog and pet them and the dogs were very social and happy. It just pisses me off when people go in to pet my dog without my permission, and I need him to be on alert.

Steve Gossmeyer
Training Dog
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm
Tell us about yourself: Schutzhund helper and trainer I own and work two Dutchies
Location: Long Island

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Steve Gossmeyer » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:19 am

Tyler Durden wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:03 am
Steve Gossmeyer wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:13 pm
Dutchringgirl wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:56 pm


its funny because its true. When you are training for fun, the dog will only bite if there is something on the arm or body. For the police dogs, they will train to bite skin.

Now, on the other hand. One day while driving trough town, there was a guy in a big puffy donut suite and Thalie went ballistic, I had to close the window or she would have jumped out and bit him.
I never have this issue! But I select dogs that will bite someone! Yoda know the difference between ipo and being a real ppd! When you have good genetics it doesn't matter! He's never done anything but ipo his whole life but there's been a few situations where he's tried to bite people acting stupid around me! And in the car forget about it lol
So, my breeder did the hidden sleeve test with both my pups parents and they bit. He made serious eye contact with them, made a loud noise and a threatening gesture with his body and they bit with no hesitation. BUT, just 10 seconds before that he had random people come up to the dog and pet them and the dogs were very social and happy. It just pisses me off when people go in to pet my dog without my permission, and I need him to be on alert.
Tell people that can't pet him and when people come around make it all about you! (Toy or food some sort of reward)

Joxgirl
Training Dog
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: Brought a Dutch Shepherd into our lives.
Location: Southern California

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Joxgirl » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:40 am

Dutchringgirl wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:56 pm
centrop67 wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:07 pm
I seem to recall seeing a cartoon where a dog is commanded to protect against an attacker, and in the cartoon the dog says to the handler "but he doesn't have that sleeve thing on his arm."

I couldn't find it, but I am sure someone else here has seen it.
its funny because its true. When you are training for fun, the dog will only bite if there is something on the arm or body. For the police dogs, they will train to bite skin.

Now, on the other hand. One day while driving trough town, there was a guy in a big puffy donut suite and Thalie went ballistic, I had to close the window or she would have jumped out and bit him.
That's funny.
Saralee
Rogue (Dutch Shepherd)-19 weeks old.
Phoenix (Lab rescue) -10 y/o
Charley (Malti-Poo; rescue)-4 y/o

Joxgirl
Training Dog
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:38 pm
Tell us about yourself: Brought a Dutch Shepherd into our lives.
Location: Southern California

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Joxgirl » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:45 am

[/quote]
It just pisses me off when people go in to pet my dog without my permission, and I need him to be on alert.
[/quote]

Stupid people.

I want to get a tee that says " my Bitch bites" go ahead and pet her. Why does everyone want to or think they have to pet every dog?
Saralee
Rogue (Dutch Shepherd)-19 weeks old.
Phoenix (Lab rescue) -10 y/o
Charley (Malti-Poo; rescue)-4 y/o

Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4867
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Dutchringgirl » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:26 pm

there are harnesses that you can get that reaD "DO NOT PET"

Sadie ususally starts giving people the eye when they approach but even if they ask I say no, or ill just blurt out " do not pet them" I dont care what they think, they are stupid
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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Dree_19
Puppy
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 8:41 pm
Tell us about yourself: Sporting a 3 pack on New England's coast.

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Dree_19 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:48 pm

Dutchringgirl wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:26 pm
there are harnesses that you can get that reaD "DO NOT PET"

Sadie ususally starts giving people the eye when they approach but even if they ask I say no, or ill just blurt out " do not pet them" I dont care what they think, they are stupid
I have vests, patches, collars but stupid people still reach out for a sniff or a pat without asking. Happened 3 times yesterday! I say no he's working. Then the questions start and I usually just say "to ignore distractions" or "service" they usually stop there. Vague but shuts them up.
"West" (Vrijheid's Xtreme DOB 4/9/17)
"Easton" (DDR GSD DOB 5/18/17)
"Chase" (Yorkanian?)
RIP Rocco & Lia GSD

Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4867
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: PPD, too friendly?

Post by Dutchringgirl » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:55 pm

I know... you cant fix stupid. I have no problem responding very quick to say NO PETTING
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
ImageImage

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