Breeding

[MyaDOG]

I'm looking to breed my odg Mya. She is a 3 year old dutchie and apparently has an amazing temperment and drive. I've recently got into Schutzhund and she is showing great promise in it according to my trainer.

I was wondering if perhaps getting her a schutzhund class under her belt would allow me to ask more for pups if we can find a special stud? She is currently in heat, this is the first one since we have had her. Just wondering people's thoughts on the best approach and how to go about finding a stud. I live in Ontario Canada fyi.

Thanks for any info or advice

[Christie M]

Well, everyone has there own breeding ethics and I respect that you are atleast researching it.

When you say that your dog has a great temperament - who is saying it and what is that based on? The average, mediocre individual from a working breed is often considered over the top by people who are not familiar. So from an outsiders perspective, I wouldn't just take someone's word on it. I would want to see the proof through performance.

A working title or certification will prove a few things to the rest of the world - that your dog has the temperament to perform certain tasks, and that it can hold up to the structure of day-to-day training. In my opinion it means a whole lot!!!

As far as if it would effect the price of selling pups - well if that is your primary concern, please let us know your exact location so that we can clean up the potential mess of a breeding. There are many great Dutch Shepherds in this world, and yours might be one of them. Or it might not.....don't know yet. But if your biggest concern is how much they are worth, then you are already screwing the dogs and the breed. TONS of people are breeding their unproven dogs with zero health tests because they think there is a market. The reality is - there just isn't. Very few people know what the breed is, and those that do tend to know what they are looking for and want. Pups from backyard breedings end up in homes that are not prepared to deal with the requirements of a high-end working dog and then end up in the shelter, rescue or worse.

In my opinion, dogs that are bred should be done so with a known responsible market already identified. I breed, occasionally. But I keep the majority of my dogs until they are ready to place on a department. I know some extremely ethical breeders who sell puppies, but they have health certs, titles and reputation behind them.

I guess what I'm harshly saying is that until you test your dog, you really have no idea what its working temperament is. If money is your primary objective, please ruin a different breed. If you are serious about loving this breed and producing good pups - get some health certs, prove your dog (get more than just one club title) and then move from there......

As far as finding a good stud? Pedigree plays a big factor. But otherwise the same things apply. is the dog proven? Has he had health certs? And if its possible to know - how have his offspring worked? Here, for me its about percentages. Some studs have produced literally thousands of offspring - and I could probably name a hundred good dogs out of them. But that's still less than 10%. Others have only been bred a handful of times and the majority of the pups work. That is much more important to me!!

[Choochi]

Why are you looking into breeding her? What makes her so special? (I'm being serious, can you list good valid reasons)

We already have a few half ass breeders in Ontario pumping out Dutch puppies like they're striped Dalmatians.

http://www.dutchshepherdforum.com/viewt ... 6700#p6700
I really hope this minor assessment that your dog can potentially do Sch is not what you're basing your decision on. That is a far cry from qualified IMO.

[Sugars Mom]

Hi there,
Please don't breed her jut because you think it will be a fun thing to do, or an" easy" way to make money. I really think breeding should be done to the professionals and experts, as there is A LOT involved to do it properly, and there are WAY too many people who have dogs that think they will let them have litters, have some cute little puppies and make some money, with disastrous results.

Someone I know had a male and female Chihuahua and they thought it was a good idea to let her have a litter of puppies when she came into her first heat before getting her fixed. Nothing "special" about her; no papers or anything like that. She had three pups, they had to be delivered by cesarian and the vet bills totaled over $3000. Trying to sell these pups for $1000 each just so they could break even, competing with all the other dogs and puppies for sale, they were unable to sell any of them and now they have a pack of 5 dogs.

Another dog friend of Sugar's is a pure bred English Setter that they picked up from a shelter that had come in as a stray, and they were told that they see it ALL THE TIME...people trying to breed their dogs, not understanding what all it takes or is involved, and then being left with puppies they can't sell and they end up at the shelter.

Seeing as how you are thinking about this now, while she is in heat leads me to believe that this is not a well thought out, long term goal of yours to breed your dog and I URGE you to reconsider. There are WAY too many unwanted dogs and puppies out there, and with a breed like the Dutch Shepherd, where they are not suitable for just anyone, it would be a shame for the pups to end up not being placed properly, not finding homes at all, etc.

I am glad you are doing some research on something as important and life changing as this, and that you really consider all these things before jumping into it. Bringing more lives into this world when there are so many already looking for homes is a really big decision and not to be taken lightly!

[Schlussdibusti]

Our county shelter (a kill facility - they are public and can't turn animals away like private rescue organizations) is so overcrowded with big dogs that they run a "special" in August: $10 adoption fee for dogs over 50 lbs. Beside the dog, you get it neutered, fully vaccinated, rabies tag, micro chipped, dewormed, heart worm tested, flea & tick & heartworm prevention, a collar & lead, a bag of food, a free vet visit with a health guarantee up to $500 in vet bills, free obedience training and if you successfully complete it a free rabies vaccination and tag for the upcoming year. http://www.pbcgov.com/publicsafety/animalcare/ Doesn't sound $1,500 for a designer mutt like a cockapoo like a joke?

Whoever wants to breed should be forced to watch when all these shelter animals are euthanized and help work the incinerator.

I have a dream: Stop all breeding until all shelter animals are adopted!

[Christie M]

wants to breed should be forced to watch when all these shelter animals are euthanized and help work the incinerator.

I have a dream: Stop all breeding until all shelter animals are adopted!

I have been involved in all levels of rescue and have assisted many animals comfortably reach the other side via volunteering with our local shelter. I still can't stand behind that statement for even a minute. Responsible breeders and breeding does exist. Without it, we wouldn't have the working dogs that we love.

[Brindle]

I'm looking to breed my odg Mya. She is a 3 year old dutchie and apparently has an amazing temperment and drive. I've recently got into Schutzhund and she is showing great promise in it according to my trainer.

I was wondering if perhaps getting her a schutzhund class under her belt would allow me to ask more for pups if we can find a special stud? She is currently in heat, this is the first one since we have had her. Just wondering people's thoughts on the best approach and how to go about finding a stud. I live in Ontario Canada fyi.
Thanks for any info or advice

This is the same Mya you've had for 7 or 8 weeks now ?
Definately not time to breed her.
Do you have a mentor ?
Her breeder ?
Someone that's been in the DS breed for many years and knows them inside and out.

The only real valid reason to breed is to improve the breed.
Is Mya a better DS than her mother ? Than her father ?
Too early to tell as you haven't had her long enough to test or title her.
Yes, there are people out there that just want "one of those cute stripey dogs" and don't care about titles etc.
Honestly there are plenty of back yard breeders already mass producing 'stripey' dogs with no regard to the breed . ( Just check with NADSR for more info ). We know that you don't want to be one of those.

An ethical breeder breeds to improve the breed.
They health certify their dogs. Minimum of OFA hips , elbows and CERF eyes.
Many breeders are adding thyroid and heart checks too.
They use dogs that have proven working ability ( this is a working breed ) , titles in their sport of choice ( agility, ringsport, SchH, SAR etc ).
So given that you've just recently got Mya and just found a group to train with, even if she is an exceptional dog you're probably looking at 2 years work to get her BH and SchH1.

At least that gives you plenty of time to get her health certifications.
Just because she runs and leaps fine doesn't mean her hips/elbows are fine and don't need to be checked.
I got a Beauceron with the intention of working, titling and breeding. Talk about atheletic ! Jumps 6ft fences like they are not there. Awesome agility dog. Titled agility and tracking.
No problems with her gait so no problems with her joints ......... WRONG !!!
She's unilateral ( one side ) mildly dysplastic.
You'd never guess it to see her work or play.

Ask any of the members on this group that ethically breed DS. When done correctly it is expensive. But they care about this breed and it's future.
Do they make money doing it ? Very rarely ! If they are very very lucky they break even.
Besides the financial aspect there is the huge emotional toll.
Hope the whelping goes well, mom does her job to raise the litter. ( Can you afford a c-section ? What if mom dies ? Can you hand raise a litter of pups ? )
Got to find good homes for the pups.That's hard, screening people and trying to judge if they really will be good owners and do the things they say. Take back the ones that 'don't work out' and rehome.

So once Mya has her health certifications and working titles this group will be better able to help you with how to find a suitable stud dog that will compliment Mya and (hopefully) improve the breed via her offspring.

[MyaDOG]

Hey everybody,

Please don't think that I'm here to gather information to corrupt this breed or screw things up for my dog and others. I'm here to gain knowledge to better understand how things work so that I can make the best decision for my dog my life and the breed.

If I wanted to do all the wrong things, I sure wouldn't spend my time researching different aspects of the breed. I feel that I might have done some good for my dog by getting it out of a previous bad placement and put a stop to the constant movement. I'm new to the breed and hope for some wiggle room, before some pass judgement. I understand and respect people's drive and commitment to the Dutch Shepherds, I'm on board with you yet there isn't as much information floating around so this is why I'm asking some of these questions, in hopes to better know what is best and to teach others.

Thanks for the many comments.

[Brindle]

I hope you don't feel like you were being *judged* .

I know without a doubt none of the people that responded ( myself included ) intended to come across that way.
It is easy for written words to get mis-interpreted. We've all done it
It's so much clearer to talk in person to understand how things are truely being said.
Body language plays a lot for us just like our dogs

You are right, we are a passionate commited bunch about this breed ( who can blame us ? ).
The responders tried to share some thoughts and comments in a constructive way.
You are doing the right thing by asking questions.
Please keep doing that.

Maybe Mya has the qualities to reproduce, maybe not, only time and testing will tell.

You started out right by asking questions, because of that you have some information to work with and help guide you in your future decisions.
You've got plenty of time to have fun with her and find out what she truely is, and whether or not she would be an asset to the next generation.

[vneerland]

Brandon/Myadog. Besides all the things that were already mentioned, there is one more part of breeding that is important, and that is the 'who is who' part. I do not know if you know a lot about your girls background, all I know is that she was 3 years old by the time you got her? Where did you get her? Why was she available?
Bloodline matters and unless she is a good, healthy, stable, drivey specimen out of like ancestors, people will not line up at your door for her pups. I know that in a way, things would be easier if you had a poodle you were wanting to breed, because there is a broad market for pets. Not so much so for DS's where the breed fanciers here on this continent for sure, expect performance of sorts, proven by results and lineage.
I am afraid you have some points to prove, before successfully placing a litter.

[MyaDOG]

OK ok ok I'm not breeding Mya anytime soon!!I was just testing the waters.... Please rest easy in knowing that I'm not persuing any litters.

[TeraByte]

I live in Ontario too, and I've been watching the Kijiji ads for Dutch Shepherds. There was a litter of pups advertised last fall for $400 with pics of the parents. The dam appeared to be sway-backed. I didn't contact them.

I noticed reposting of the ads every month with the price reduced by $50 each time.

Now, six months later, I see they have another litter but now they're asking $1,000. This time I contacted them and asked what health testing had been done on the parents. I noticed that this time they didn't post pics of the dam.

Seems that they think a routine physical, that any responsible pet owner would do yearly at least, is what this greeder calls health testing.

I have to wonder who is selling intact dogs to ignorant people and telling them the breed has no health problems. I had contacted another advertiser who had bred one litter and decided that it was too much work. For months she had ads to sell their last puppy and the dam, a seven-year-old DS.

Another Kijiji advertiser crosses DSs with Mals and sells them for $1,000. I asked him what health testing he'd done and his response was, "You mean Xrays?" He had no idea.

Even more depressing is when you see someone who bought a puppy trying to resell a week or a few months later because they had no idea of what they were taking on.

TeraByte

[MyaDOG]

I have met so many helpful people since i've added Mya to the family. I'm still unsure if I'll breed her or what the plan could be. Lots of knowledge and guidance from these people is the biggest gain from this. I will be making a decision here in the next year or so I feel. I won't be posting anything on Kijiji even though that's how I lucked into funding the breed lol

I was trying to find more info from the breeder but have no such luck. Stupid Black Creek Kennel

[TeraByte]

A huge amount of research goes into breeding quality dogs, and it is costly. DNA testing, Xrays, CERF, plus temperament testing, titling, and it only gets more complicated with time. You practically need a PhD. in genetics to understand the bloodlines. I cringe when I see some of the linebreeding--tantamount to inbreeding--that has been done to improve a breed but results in serious unexpected health problems.

And screening prospective puppy buyers would be quite a task. Taking back puppies that need to be rehomed could put a strain on a breeder's home situation and finances. But these are responsibilities that a breeder takes on, and it becomes political when duties are shirked.

Successes are addictive, but it's devastating when things go wrong.

[vneerland]

TeraByte. I asked in another topic as well, but....
Please grace us with an introduction in the new member section and if you could create a signature in your profile, you would not have to remember to sign your posts.