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Update and a couple questions

Obedience (non-protection) discussion. We have broken the two apart.
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karenz
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Karen and I have a dutch shepherd, Xander, born 6/14/13. He is my second dutch shepherd. My first was Rawly. Even though Xander is my second I still have a lot to learn. That is why I'm here, to learn, get advice, and meet people who love these guys as much as I do.
Location: NC

Update and a couple questions

Post by karenz » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:20 am

Xander is doing good with his training. We initially had an issue with his out when playing tug. He would not let go for ANYTHING at times. I have figured out that if I let go of the tug altogether and tell him out he will out after chomping it a couple times. He does this consistently. Is there anything wrong with him not outing with me holding the tug?

The next thing is his recall. He is doing good at home. When we are done playing I go inside and stand at the door and call him. He comes, but he may sit and think about it for a moment. I can throw his ball or tug after telling him to stay and he will wait for me to say get it before he takes off. He does pretty good if I recall him off his ball. It just depends on how amped up he is. Then of course there are times that the distraction is to great and he completely ignores me, birds, squirrels.... I have a long line and try to reinforce the recall with that. But when he is on leash he does a great heel and won't really wonder off so I can work on recall. If he does wander off he recalls everytime. But as soon as the leash comes off the recall is a 50 50 chance. He will sit and stay on the long line and then I can recall him. I need some ideas on how to perfect his recall. I always give him yummy rewards when he comes but sometimes that isn't enough to get him to come.

Also if I call and he doesn't come what should I do? I have read not to keep calling because he will learn to ignore it. I also read not to go get him because he learns that if he comes the fun is over which makes him not want to come.

Out of all the training we do, the recall is definitely the hardest and the most important. I'm really hoping I can train him to do a recall no matter what is going on.
Karen & Xander

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Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by Dutchringgirl » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:49 pm

How long have you been working on the out? he should out while you are holding the tug. By letting go all of the time and waiting for him, you are teaching him to disrespect you. He is to out any time you say out no matter what he is doing with the tug.

Also with the recall, the standing and sitting for a moment is disrespect, he should come to you like his but is on fire.

If you are in a place with a lot of distractions, keep him on a leash or long line so you can make the corrections, again, even at full run to a squirrel, if you call him, she should turn and come like his life depends on it.

Keep the leash on, for a while. If you allow him to do what he wants when he wants, you will teach him to not listen to you.

he isnt coming because you arent making him realize that he MUST come no matter what. Keep him on the long line and you may have to use negative reinforcement. it dosnt have to be bad, just if he dosnt come, he gets a correction, then when he comes, he gets treats or happy dance and HUGE reward.

He should NOT be off the leash at all until the recall is 100% ALL of the time for a long enough time that you are confident he will come no matter what.

Sadie is still on a long line and she is 4, I wont hold it many times but when I recall her, she spins and comes like a hot potato.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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karenz
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Karen and I have a dutch shepherd, Xander, born 6/14/13. He is my second dutch shepherd. My first was Rawly. Even though Xander is my second I still have a lot to learn. That is why I'm here, to learn, get advice, and meet people who love these guys as much as I do.
Location: NC

Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by karenz » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:25 pm

We have been working on out for a few months now. If I hold the tug, even if with no pressure he locks his jaws down and will not give it up for anything, not even another toy or piece of steak. As soon as I let go and say out he will chomp it a couple times and out. I guess I just don't know how to "make" him out when he is in jaw lock down mode. A leash correction doesn't work. Maybe I need a prong collar, but he is super sensative to the prong and basically when I did use one it made him resist harder.

The thing with the recall on a leash or long line is he always recalls. I never have to correct him on leash since he always comes, immediately. I mostly reward him with treats when he comes. If I reward him with his tug when he comes then he won't out the tug if I'm holding it, then I'm giving him a correction for not outing and I don't want to have to correct him for that right after he comes because I'm afraid he will associate the correction with coming.

I have been trying to mark his good behavior with "good" and then giving a treat.

I guess I was spoiled by my last ds who was very submissive and easily did everything I told him. A simple no with him was sufficient if he did something he wasn't supposed to do. If I gave him a command with a stern voice he complied. I guess he was a punk. Xander is very different. Not in a bad way, just different.

I'm waiting to hear back from Tarheel Canine. I'm hoping to get some training through them. More so training for me. So I know how to handle these situations.

Dont get me wrong. Xander is doing good. He is very smart. He does so many things perfectly. He learns quick, its obviously that I just don't know how to teach him some things. If I can learn he will get it down in no time.
Karen & Xander

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Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by Raven » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:55 pm

What's Xander's most favorite thing in regard to reward?
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

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karenz
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Karen and I have a dutch shepherd, Xander, born 6/14/13. He is my second dutch shepherd. My first was Rawly. Even though Xander is my second I still have a lot to learn. That is why I'm here, to learn, get advice, and meet people who love these guys as much as I do.
Location: NC

Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by karenz » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:01 pm

Raven wrote:What's Xander's most favorite thing in regard to reward?
Either his tug or a hotdog or piece of raw meat. I would say he responds equally to either.
Karen & Xander

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Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by Raven » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:43 pm

Does he JUST DIE for raw meat? I'm thinking of it as a lure to start off-lead "come."

Since he's your dog and you work with him all the time, do you have any thoughts on why he's resistant off-lead with the command????? Can you think of something in the past where he resisted or reluctantly complied but then he started turning around?

He's not being a jerk BECAUSE he knows how important the command is, so I keep thinking he's associated something with it...or it's part of his learning which includes Let's-Test-Mom.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

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karenz
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Karen and I have a dutch shepherd, Xander, born 6/14/13. He is my second dutch shepherd. My first was Rawly. Even though Xander is my second I still have a lot to learn. That is why I'm here, to learn, get advice, and meet people who love these guys as much as I do.
Location: NC

Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by karenz » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:29 pm

He does LOVE his raw meat chunks. The ONLY time he gets raw beef is when he comes when called. So it is a special treat for him. If I have raw beef he is intensely focused on me.

My thoughts are.... he knows if he doesn't come there is no concequence. But that's what I'm not sure of. I don't want to correct him not coming incorrectly and make him not want to come even more.

He will come for the tug or beef unless there is something way better, squirrels or a pinecone he is playing with, or when he sets his mind to run to some unknown thing and then he is oblivious that I call him.

Everything other command I have taught him he has done great. He will sit down and stay off leash. The stay is even 70% of the time even if something catches his eye. But say we are outside and he is hanging out off leash while I'm picking tomatoes. Once he takes off after whatever he will not recall. The ball is the only thing I have been able to get him to recall from.

I don't think he is testing me but I could be wrong. Once on a leash or long line, recalls everytime. Like he knows if he is on the long line he has no choice.

I don't know what he would have associated with it. We are going out now to practice a little before I go to work.
Karen & Xander

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Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by Dutchringgirl » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:30 pm

Your right, they are very smart, so when he is not doing what you want him to do, my thinking is he is not respecting you and you are not being clear with your corrections so he gets the point.

This is why I leave the leashes on for so long, so the recall is so good that it wont matter that he is on or off leash, he knows when you say come, he will come like a hot potato.

The corrections are all about timing. If he is onlead, and out and about, you recall, he dosnt come, correction, then he comes, reward. If your timing is off then yes, he will get confused.

for the tug. I would hold it and say out, then not let go and wait him out. when he outs, happy dance
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Karen and I have a dutch shepherd, Xander, born 6/14/13. He is my second dutch shepherd. My first was Rawly. Even though Xander is my second I still have a lot to learn. That is why I'm here, to learn, get advice, and meet people who love these guys as much as I do.
Location: NC

Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by karenz » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:37 pm

Dutchringgirl wrote:for the tug. I would hold it and say out, then not let go and wait him out. when he outs, happy dance
OMG... that may kill me. I waited him out one day for 20+ minutes. I tried to just hold it loosely but he would pull and pull and pull. I did win and he got the happiest dance ever. But the very next time.... 20 minutes. I guess if I do it enough he will get it. And when he does out and gets the happy dance he immediately gets it back as a reward. I was going with the if you out you can get it thrown to chase approach. Maybe that is not the right thing to do.
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Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by Raven » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:57 pm

Lisa, what are you meaning by correction when he doesn't come? Corrections on that command build resistance to come. (And if I remember correctly, Xander is sensitive to begin with.)

Thor was really tough all the way around. I didn't let him off lead for a long time in training sessions. (And he wasn't food or toy motivated then.) He was pretty conditioned when the lead came off. But like Xander, he knew when he was off lead--but also by then our relationship was solid and he had respect....

I'd agree no off-lead and offer high-value treats (raw meat for him) and a big party, and continue until he doesn't even THINK about NOT doing it, until he's so conditioned that he breaks his neck to get to you hearing the word. Then slowly, introduce it differently. Right now, he's learning he doesn't have to listen. (He's putting his thumbs in his ears, wiggling his fingers, and singing, "Na-na-na-na-na." :lol: It's not funny, I know, and feel your pain, but that's kind of what he's doing.)

And being outside with distractions, off-lead, is encouraging the behavior. You can't back up the command.

If he's not dissing you, there's a disconnect somewhere.
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

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Tell us about yourself: My name is Karen and I have a dutch shepherd, Xander, born 6/14/13. He is my second dutch shepherd. My first was Rawly. Even though Xander is my second I still have a lot to learn. That is why I'm here, to learn, get advice, and meet people who love these guys as much as I do.
Location: NC

Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by karenz » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:48 pm

Raven: I completely understand what you are saying. I can certainly keep him on lead during training. But he has to go off lead to play ball and exercise. Especially when I'm working and my mom is with him. He would drive her nuts if she can't take him out to run and play. So would it be better when he is playing not to even attempt to call him to come. Usually he will come in on his own after playing anyway. That way my mom is not calling him to come and giving him the opportunity to ignore it. He does have a leash on during training anyway but I was letting it go and drag, for example, a sit stay, let the leash go, walk around, and either go back to him or call him to me. In which case he will come to me. The not coming part is when we are just outside chilling and he takes off to whatever..
Karen & Xander

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Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:59 am

H is on an ecollar when we're practicing off leash so I always have a way to reinforce a command. I really can't let him get away with even once ignoring me. So I would say keep Xander on leash and drill, drill, drill. As soon as it's second habit in all environments start shortening the leash until he's recalling on a 6" tab.

The ME video on recalls had an interesting way of building the recall. After building drive to recall by just calling/luring (with some resistance recalls), they started recalling off food (person lures dog away and once owner gives recall command, person luring stops and closes hand so dog can't get toy, dog recalls and gets treats), then toys (same protocol as food), then a call off (person standing away and lures dog in, dog gets recalled a foot before the person, then two feet, three feet, etc), then they started adding an enforcement to the command. They would take the dog on a walk and wait until the dog got interested in something, issue the recall command with either a tap on the leash (a leash correction) or a tap on the ecollar. This step was performed maybe once or twice a walk and slowly building. Soon the dog was recalling without the reinforcement.

Also try not recalling him to come inside. That may be the reason he pauses - he sees you're in the house and thinks "time to stop playing". So what if you started mixing it up? Not recall him to head inside then do it at the beginning of training, in the middle, twice, once, keep him guessing. Recall him to the car, inside the house, onto a platform... So he doesn't build the expectation of something (like heading inside equals playtime over).

As for the prong, H is really sensitive too but he handles the prong now better than the ecollar. It's a matter of getting them used to it and building them up on it. H hasn't spent as much time on the ecollar as he has the prong, especially out working, so he's a bit more sensitive to it. I'm also however not over correcting him or zapping him very high - I respect that he is very handler sensitive.

I'm wondering if maybe he needs a similar tactic with his out? Maybe he needs to be on a prong and when he doesn't out, he gets a correction. Second he lets go the game begins again. It sounds harsh but if he's being pig headed...

Have you tried the "out gets to tug again" approach instead of throwing it? If he's holding I when you let go, maybe he's saying that's what he wants. He wants to hold it again?
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Karen and I have a dutch shepherd, Xander, born 6/14/13. He is my second dutch shepherd. My first was Rawly. Even though Xander is my second I still have a lot to learn. That is why I'm here, to learn, get advice, and meet people who love these guys as much as I do.
Location: NC

Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by karenz » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:37 am

OwnedbyHendrix: you made a very good points. Calling him to come in means playtime is over. Maybe I could call him to me somewhere else in the yard and put his leash on, play for a few minutes, and then simply walk him inside without saying anything.

I do give him his tug back as a reward when he outs. But every time it is a 15 20 minute standoff until he outs. Then he gets it back as a reward. He just hasn't figured out that if he outs quicker he gets it back quicker. He figures he will just keep it and skip the middle man. He will out the tug immediately if I let go of it. Go figure.

I have a friend who is going to let me barrow a prong collar. I will hopefully see her on monday. That way I can see how it goes before I buy one since a decent one is about $40 at the store here. I know he is going to fight it but maybe he will get over it.
Karen & Xander

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Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by johninny » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:53 am

all this about recall made me think how happy i am that i bought e-collars last year. i got decent recalls very fast and with very little negative feedback to the dogs. it is just such a good way of reaching out 100 or 400 feet with your hand and giving a tug on the collar.

i had said recently that i had hardly used them recently, but 2 weeks ago they were getting sloppy, so e-collars are back on when we go on public walks with all 3. [ if only one dog on a walk there is no need for the collar as attention is focused solely on me, but in a pack of 3 they adopt mob mentality as early on as pups and a little again as they got sloppy recently.] [ in the yard, which is quite large, they recall just fine.]

all along, i have worried about long distance recall on the beach, or chasing a deer in the woods, or dealing with strong winds blowing against me on the beach, so i started carrying a whistle last year; they can hear that even in storm winds by the sea. so it goes: i say ''here'', immediately resort to split-second blast of whistle if no immediate response. the whistle had been working fine under all circumstances til last week. [ on one of our walks, they finally got their paws on a young raccoon and did it in in a matter of seconds. it was so quick and tidy, that i did not even know anything had happened til i went to see what all 3 of them were staring down at. after that kill, they got blood-thirstily enthusiastic about potential pursuit of prey and not recalling from same quickly enough for my liking.]

now, if they are not on their way back to me when the whistle leaves my lips [ and when they start darting as a mob, the whistle is my first resort - skipping ''here''], they each get a ''pulse'' on the collar [ as opposed to a low shock, as i have decided to make greater use of the ''reach out and touch someone'' feature of the collar than i did last year. --- so ANY moment a response is not forthcoming quickly enough the dog gets a pulse ]. it has been very effective; and i am using that to get a level of precision that i had not sought last year. so the collars are staying around for group walks for the foreseeable future!

and again, the use of the e-collars when the 3 are together has done wonders. in fact, even as a pack, they will cut a squirrel or deer chase off immediately. but this time, will keep going with the e-collars to get this good behavior set in stone this time and to accomplish more subtle changes in behavior.

unrelated to this thread [ involving neither recall nor use of e-collar ]: at the same time their behavior on walks got a little unruly [ not permissible on off-leash walks in public! ], their adherence to our ''off the street'' rule was also getting sloppy, which, of course, is totally unacceptable. specifically, a couple rushes to greet their best-friend neighbor [ dog and/or man ] across the street from our house when neighbor is outside working. as this temptation is nothing new, this breakdown of discipline seems also related to the raccoon incident.

all along from spring of '13, i would be walking with the dogs on one side of the street and then i would, in order to test them and to demonstrate to them, casually go to the other side and keep walking - or walk along a street to an intersection and i would cross the intersection and keep going. in both cases, the dogs would be expected and were taught to keep walking on THEIR side of the street or WAIT/STOP at the intersection unless or until i gave permission in the form of ''cross, ok cross''. they had been doing spectacularly with this until the neighbor-related failures last week.

in response, i have upped the ante on their ''off the street'' training. now instead of just crossing to the other side of the street unannounced, i also taunt them, trying to get them to chase, being playful, waving to come, saying ok, etc, etc, etc. - anything i can think of on each walk that is NOT ''cross, ok cross''. i am very happy to report that they have been absorbing these lessons in restraint very well and just about whatever i do they just sit and stare at me until i utter the magic words.
Last edited by johninny on Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka

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Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by Dutchringgirl » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:02 pm

the correction dosnt have to be harsh just enough to let him know that he MUST come. Have him on a long line, recall, if he dosnt come in ONE second, snap the leash, it dosnt have to be a neck breaking snap, just something that he knows you mean business, then in when he comes, happy dance and great reward. The corrections and reward MUST be quick enough for him to connect them.
Keep him on a short leash until he gets it on that, then once that is solid, go longer and longer. I would NOT have him off leash until his recal is solid.
I use the prong with Sadie always but I don’t need to use it at all. One genle quick tug and she knows I mean business then when she comes, its all good. Then they learn that coming is better than dissing you.
I would NOT have him off leash to play, only play on leash, any time you give him the chance to not come is setting your recall training back and it will be harder to get a solid recall.
I also love the Ecollar but that needs to be trained for both of you. Once the recall is solid on the long line, I will graduate to the ecollar with vibrate as a reminder.
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Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by Raven » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:16 pm

karenz wrote:So would it be better when he is playing not to even attempt to call him to come.
You got it. (This goes for any commands if you can't back it up if he's not solid with them.)

I love Michael Ellis, so whatever Kira said!

I couldn't even use a prong on Thor since it amped/amps his drive, AND he was difficult, so the two combined meant I had to use my pretty little head :doh: and no tools of the trade. While I'll never know everything I'm sure I should, I think it made me a better handler in the long run. ( :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: )
Though I can only hope to become the person who my animals believe I am, the things that they have taught me have made me a better human being. ~~~Sharon~~~

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Re: Update and a couple questions

Post by Dutchringgirl » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:19 pm

are you playing in an open space? How are you going to get him when you are done playing?
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