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KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

KNPV, Schutzhund, Ring, PSA, etc - General Discussion
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Use this forum for general discussion of Protection Sports. Please use the sub-forums for specific issues in the various phases.
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Tennessee3
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Tell us about yourself: Nicholas or Nick, doesn't matter to me.

Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Tennessee3 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:13 pm

TimL_168 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:18 am
Indi wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:51 am
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Czech lines appear to be closest to the original breed these days. Not easy to find lines that haven't been mixed with DDR and other lines though.
There's a lady not to far away that's breeding a working Czech line to American show lines. I was curious what her goal was. They only reply I ever got was to fill out the puppy questionnaire...
Done correctly?

You can put out some very nicely balanced dogs, with good structure, that are capable of working but also aren't going to be total nutcases in your more typical pet home.

Done incorrectly?

What Steve said... :eew:
Nicholas

Millie WLGSD in training for Schutzhund 5/27/17 & Grendel KNPV lines Malinois same + PP work 2/15/18

...... Mals are tan dutchies, right?

https://www.instagram.com/nick_millie_and_grendel/

Indi
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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Indi » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:25 am

Well, when you think about about, selecting dogs based purely on ability and/or other desired traits is how all breeds came into existence. Selection based on looks alone, therefore, would seem to be counter-productive. Function leads to form, as they say.

But form also leads to function. By breeding dogs with roach backs that changed the centre of gravity to put more weight on their hind legs, the show german shepherd crowd created a dog with a spring of step and glide in the ring. The effort required to push that weight off with their hind legs led to dogs that "looked" sprightly in the gait, but ruined the natural angulation that allowed them to run all day. You don't see roach backs in nature.

So in fact, when you breed for function, you're also breeding for form. Strong heads/mouths, athletic form, balance/centre of gravity (width-length-height ratio), good wind (deep lungs/chest proportions) etc. In many ways, when breeding a working dog, you're breeding for both ability and conformation. Conformation being any desired trait than enhances the dog's ability to do its intended job. That is the rationale behind the breed standard.

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Tennessee3
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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Tennessee3 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:32 am

Right...

I’m making the case that the breed standard for the Northern European Shepherds are extremely exacting and difficult to maintain without a huge gene pool.

A good way to make sure that pool stays nice and healthy is to allow a bit of fresh blood in from time to time.
Nicholas

Millie WLGSD in training for Schutzhund 5/27/17 & Grendel KNPV lines Malinois same + PP work 2/15/18

...... Mals are tan dutchies, right?

https://www.instagram.com/nick_millie_and_grendel/

Indi
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Tell us about yourself: Young Dutchy, old GSD

Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Indi » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:09 am

Couldn't agree more. Especially when you consider the bloodlines of KNPV dogs are mostly known for many generations, with arguably less doctoring of records than the FCI dogs (many of which appear to have false pedigrees).

Really, what's the difference between an FCI Dutch shepherd with false papers that comes from KNPV lines and a KNPV Dutch shepherd? None.

Maybe KNPV lines are really a breed of their own - as I've seen both sides argue - when you consider the fact they are typically a Dutch/Mal hybrid, with a bit of GSD. Of course, it would probably depend on individual lines, with some having more Mal and others having more Dutch.

Which kind of brings me back to the original question: what is a Dutch Shepherd, how does it differ from the Mal and what are the Dutch shepherd traits you find in KNPV dogs as opposed to Malinois traits?

I watched a Mal working the other day and she was intense. Really fast, really frenetic and very excitable. I see a lot of similar traits in my Dutchy - the look, the bark, the focus, the way she works herself up at times - but she's not quite as "edgy" as the Mal. She's young, though, so hard to tell.

It was a really nice looking Mal, BTW, from good working lines. But while I very much admired her, I'm not sure I'd want to own her. High maintenance would be an understatement.

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Tennessee3
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Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Tennessee3 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:28 am

Indi wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:09 am
Couldn't agree more. Especially when you consider the bloodlines of KNPV dogs are mostly known for many generations, with arguably less doctoring of records than the FCI dogs (many of which appear to have false pedigrees).

Really, what's the difference between an FCI Dutch shepherd with false papers that comes from KNPV lines and a KNPV Dutch shepherd? None.

Maybe KNPV lines are really a breed of their own - as I've seen both sides argue - when you consider the fact they are typically a Dutch/Mal hybrid, with a bit of GSD. Of course, it would probably depend on individual lines, with some having more Mal and others having more Dutch.

Which kind of brings me back to the original question: what is a Dutch Shepherd, how does it differ from the Mal and what are the Dutch shepherd traits you find in KNPV dogs as opposed to Malinois traits?

I watched a Mal working the other day and she was intense. Really fast, really frenetic and very excitable. I see a lot of similar traits in my Dutchy - the look, the bark, the focus, the way she works herself up at times - but she's not quite as "edgy" as the Mal. She's young, though, so hard to tell.

It was a really nice looking Mal, BTW, from good working lines. But while I very much admired her, I'm not sure I'd want to own her. High maintenance would be an understatement.
There really isn’t much difference at all between the breeds, you really have to nitpick “the ideal” from the standard to find some ie Mals are proportionally supposed to be perfectly square 10/10 and DSs are 10/9.

Which is the whole point of the brindle requirement (ignoring rough coat/long coat as the AKC lumps Groenendaels Laekenois Tervuren and Mal together as Belgian Shepherds) to distinguish them from Mals.

I mean we’re talking about an area the size of West Virginia (Belgium & Netherlands combined) that historically was a unified area for long stretches and a centre for commerce. Meaning there was well developed travel routes between and through them. Hardly an isolated backwards area where truly unique and distinct breeds could develop. The Belgians fought a civil war in the 1830s to secede from Dutch King. And this caused a degree of bad blood between the two that has lead to both being very proud of their unique national heritages.

Which is why the Dutch Shepherd association as I mentioned before put in the brindle requirement as a distinct point of differentiation between the Mal and Dutch.

Which all boils down to individual lines are far more important than breeds as a whole. So for KNPV I don’t believe I want to mix Dutch Shepherd (general as a breed) to obtain X quality is said or thought, rather I want to mix THIS Dutch Shepherd (specific dog from specific line) to obtain X quality.
Nicholas

Millie WLGSD in training for Schutzhund 5/27/17 & Grendel KNPV lines Malinois same + PP work 2/15/18

...... Mals are tan dutchies, right?

https://www.instagram.com/nick_millie_and_grendel/

Tyler Durden
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Tell us about yourself: I have always had german shepherds but I am new to dutch shepherds. I hope to get a new pup shortly and look forward to learning and sharing my experience.

Re: KNPV lines - are they really Dutchies?

Post by Tyler Durden » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:24 pm

It's harder to find GSD's with the same drive and ferocity as your average KNPV dog. That's just the way I see it. Great GSDs are still out there, but because there's so many more breeders and so much dumbing down of the lines that it just takes more work to find a GSD with that "it" factor. At my protection club we have about 12 knpv dogs and every single one of them hits like a ton of bricks. I searched long and hard for the right GSD breeder but the percentages were just not in my favor. I didn't want to raise a pup for a year or two only to have to find out my dog is not quite what I'm looking for.

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