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Two Languages

KNPV, Schutzhund, Ring, PSA, etc - General Discussion
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KRoberts626
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Two Languages

Post by KRoberts626 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:48 am

Is it possible to train in 2 languages and still have good response/results?
*********
Kristen Roberts
Vrijheid's Guitan aka "Ziva" - Dutch Shepherd
Ryne des Chevaliers du Noir, CGC, FR trained (RIP 12/07 - Beauceron)

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turnnburn52984
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Re: Two Languages

Post by turnnburn52984 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:25 am

Personally I use english around the house. German while training obedience/SchH/playing fetch.... anytime I am going to be picky about precision and speed it's german, but just around the house everything is in english. (not that in the home commands are optional... but he does not have to 'platz' straight, if I tell him to go lay down. I'm sure you know what I mean)

I'll let you know in a year or two how it works out!!!!! :D I know someone with more sport experience then me will chime in.
Kelly
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leih merigian
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Re: Two Languages

Post by leih merigian » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:09 pm

KRoberts626 wrote:Is it possible to train in 2 languages and still have good response/results?
Keep in mind that dog's don't speak any language. When they respond to any verbal cue, it's the sound of the word and the association that has been created, thru repitition, to which they are responding.

You could train them in as many languages as you know. You could train them in Martian and Klingon and French and Swahili...it makes no difference to them. A particular sound associated with a specfic, well-defined action will get the good response/results you seek.

I tend to have a lot of different cues for slightly different behaviors. The formal behaviors definitely have their own cues, versus the daily, more casual ones.
leih merigian
Vrijheid's H'Geyser
Zodiac vom Younghaus (over the bridge)
Central VA (near Charlottesville)
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...

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KRoberts626
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Re: Two Languages

Post by KRoberts626 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:46 pm

That makes me more confident for what I have in mind :D I wasn't sure if it would be confusing to her, or if like when a toddler is learning to be bilingual initially they are behind in their speech and then as they get older they know the difference and suddenly they are right on track.

All my Beaucerons were trained in French- I trained French Ring. Currently Ziva knows english, which I did to make it easier on my 6 year old son and husband, but because FR is the sport she's intended to be trained for I tend to want to go back to training in French- at least like you guys said for the formal training, while the english command could be more casual and for "home use." I thought about using Dutch, but I find some to be harder to say and of course I already know French so like most I like to stick with what I know :)

I guess it's kinda like their names and nick names, they end up responding to many things other than just their actual call name - it just depends on how you use it!
*********
Kristen Roberts
Vrijheid's Guitan aka "Ziva" - Dutch Shepherd
Ryne des Chevaliers du Noir, CGC, FR trained (RIP 12/07 - Beauceron)

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leih merigian
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Re: Two Languages

Post by leih merigian » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:08 pm

KRoberts626 wrote:I guess it's kinda like their names and nick names, they end up responding to many things other than just their actual call name - it just depends on how you use it!
Xactly!

And, you can't compare the acquisition of language in human children to dogs learning to respond to verbal cues. Apples and oranges, totally.

It cracks me up sometimes...I am training a young pup these days. She has both pee and poop cues. If she indicates she needs to go out, and I ask her, "do you need to be quick?" she'll respond "YES!" if she really has to go. I'll take her out, she'll do her business, everybody's happy.

However, sometimes she'll indicate a need...I'll ask the same question, and she'll again respond with "YES!" Take her out, nothing but screwing around behavior :roll: .

Now, my husband will think she's lying to me. Me? I think she doesn't speak English :) . She may think answering any question from me with a "YES" is likely to get her what she wants...out of the crate or XPen, and outside. And, it does get her what she wants, at least, initially. But, when she doesn't follow thru by giving this false positive, she goes back inside, no rewards (other than that she got rewarded by getting outside in the first place, of course), and back into some kind of confinement without any treats at all.

I don't think dogs lie. Doesn't mean they can't be sneaky or crafty, or conniving, but outright lying? Nah.

(Now, right this very minute, she's telling me she needs go out. We were just out there, and I asked her to pee, and she refused. Can't take the chance she...she may really need to go...we'll see :lol: )
leih merigian
Vrijheid's H'Geyser
Zodiac vom Younghaus (over the bridge)
Central VA (near Charlottesville)
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...

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KRoberts626
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Re: Two Languages

Post by KRoberts626 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:37 pm

leih merigian wrote:
KRoberts626 wrote:I guess it's kinda like their names and nick names, they end up responding to many things other than just their actual call name - it just depends on how you use it!
Xactly!

And, you can't compare the acquisition of language in human children to dogs learning to respond to verbal cues. Apples and oranges, totally.
I just meant like with a child learning to be bilingual it might be slow at first to get her to respond to english AND another language and have the results/response quickly :D

Anyway, that answers it. Think I'll start working with her in French for work and english for at home to make it easier on family.

My husband thinks the same.... Ziva is lying!!! I said "of course she is" LOL (but I don't mean it) But I have to take her out because IF she's serious... and I dont' take her out she's going to use her other option, the floor! But same here, she doesn't get a if she just goes out to screw around (eat rocks, play with ducks, etc) :)
*********
Kristen Roberts
Vrijheid's Guitan aka "Ziva" - Dutch Shepherd
Ryne des Chevaliers du Noir, CGC, FR trained (RIP 12/07 - Beauceron)

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leih merigian
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Re: Two Languages

Post by leih merigian » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:49 am

KRoberts626 wrote:... just meant like with a child learning to be bilingual it might be slow at first to get her to respond to english AND another language and have the results/response quickly :D
I don't mean to harp (oh sure), but you're missing the point here, my friend.

You can name any behavior anything...you can use "eggplant" for a cue to sit, and it won't be any different than using "sit" for the cue. It takes no more time for a dog to learn a verbal cue that isn't in English, than it does for the same dog to learn a cue in English.

Now, if you are renaming something, that may take a little more time, but that's easy, too. Just put the new cue in front of the old one...so if your dog knows "sit" and you want to change it to "eggplant," you'd say "eggplant...sit," then reward for the sit. Eventually, you'd just say "eggplant" and see what happened.

One easy example...I use "nose" as the cue for my pup to touch my hand with her nose. Then, I can say "nose" and hold something out to her for her to touch with her nose. Then, to move it along to the concept of "show me," I'll hold something out, say "show me, nose" and she'll touch it. Eventually, I can name an object, and tell her to "show me" and she'll use the original "nose" behavior.

I haven't even named our formal sit yet...I won't, either, until it's perfect. Isn't the French word for sit assi, or something like that? I like it and am thinking that's what I'll use for our formal sit, when I do name it.

So, if I remember, you were thinking about using different cues for your formal/competition vx casual cues. I really don't see how the dog will have a problem with that. Remember that context is a lot to a dog, too. When you're training and doing that kind of work, it's very different than just hanging out in the house.
leih merigian
Vrijheid's H'Geyser
Zodiac vom Younghaus (over the bridge)
Central VA (near Charlottesville)
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...

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Re: Two Languages

Post by icvanstra » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:36 pm

Also, it's not just spoken commands.

I use distinct whistling which basically mean: I want your attention, come back to me/come in the house, and come back to me and sit in position.

Then of course you have the verbal queues, here I basically use three - drop to the ground, a sitting motion, and a stay

Around the house and in casual situations with both dogs I tend to use English. When I do work with the dogs individually I use Abigailese commands with Abigail and Dutch commands with Cino. What's Abigailese? A strange mix of German, English, grunts and such that just worked at the time when I was very first leaning to train her.
Eric
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KRoberts626
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Re: Two Languages

Post by KRoberts626 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:04 pm

leih merigian wrote:
KRoberts626 wrote:... just meant like with a child learning to be bilingual it might be slow at first to get her to respond to english AND another language and have the results/response quickly :D
I don't mean to harp (oh sure), but you're missing the point here, my friend.

You can name any behavior anything...you can use "eggplant" for a cue to sit, and it won't be any different than using "sit" for the cue. It takes no more time for a dog to learn a verbal cue that isn't in English, than it does for the same dog to learn a cue in English.

Now, if you are renaming something, that may take a little more time, but that's easy, too. Just put the new cue in front of the old one...so if your dog knows "sit" and you want to change it to "eggplant," you'd say "eggplant...sit," then reward for the sit. Eventually, you'd just say "eggplant" and see what happened.

One easy example...I use "nose" as the cue for my pup to touch my hand with her nose. Then, I can say "nose" and hold something out to her for her to touch with her nose. Then, to move it along to the concept of "show me," I'll hold something out, say "show me, nose" and she'll touch it. Eventually, I can name an object, and tell her to "show me" and she'll use the original "nose" behavior.

I haven't even named our formal sit yet...I won't, either, until it's perfect. Isn't the French word for sit assi, or something like that? I like it and am thinking that's what I'll use for our formal sit, when I do name it.

So, if I remember, you were thinking about using different cues for your formal/competition vx casual cues. I really don't see how the dog will have a problem with that. Remember that context is a lot to a dog, too. When you're training and doing that kind of work, it's very different than just hanging out in the house.
Yeah I understand. It's just my own funky analogy :)

When we changed her name a while back, we were calling her "Gabie-Ziva" for like a week, and eventually just dropped the Gabie part. Of course after a while of not hearing it her chances of responding to Gabie are quite slim. Difference of course being, that we aren't dropping one command for another, I want her to respond to both cues. I was interested in the end result, as I teach her by saying (for example) "down-couche" that in time she would respond to "down" or "couche" with the same accuracy, or if initially it would be slow, but she would get it without saying "down-couche" every time as one command. Hope I'm making more sense. Not that she's a child learning to be bilingual.

When we first got her I comtemplated from the get-go just training her in Dutch or French. My husband was like "She knows Dutch?" So we had a conversation that she doesn't know any language, you can train her to cue on whatever you want. It took a while to sink in as when housebreaking got difficult (she had a UTI) he used to have "heart to heart conversations" with her and he thought that per their conversation that things would get better. He thought she understood, while I told him she didn't. I think he started to realize when talking with her didn't get results. I think most of the talking that people do with their dogs is to make themselves feel better. Mind you, I do it too, but I'm not one that thinks she understands what I'm talking about :D unless I say a word that she relates to something that she likes!
*********
Kristen Roberts
Vrijheid's Guitan aka "Ziva" - Dutch Shepherd
Ryne des Chevaliers du Noir, CGC, FR trained (RIP 12/07 - Beauceron)

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leih merigian
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Re: Two Languages

Post by leih merigian » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:14 pm

KRoberts626 wrote:
I was interested in the end result, as I teach her by saying (for example) "down-couche" that in time she would respond to "down" or "couche" with the same accuracy, or if initially it would be slow, but she would get it without saying "down-couche" every time as one command. Hope I'm making more sense. Not that she's a child learning to be bilingual.
I really don't think you'll have any problems. If she already does "down" with the speed and accuracy you desire, then adding the new verbal cue shouldn't be an issue, once the learning phase has passed. Of course, rate of reinforcement will be relevant here :fluffy: .
leih merigian
Vrijheid's H'Geyser
Zodiac vom Younghaus (over the bridge)
Central VA (near Charlottesville)
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...

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leih merigian
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Tell us about yourself: Had a GSD, am getting a DS puppy in a few weeks. Compete in agility, obedience, and cross train in tons of stuff. Found out about this site from the DS Rescue yahoo list.

Re: Two Languages

Post by leih merigian » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:17 pm

icvanstra wrote:Also, it's not just spoken commands.
Totally agree, and that's my whole point. It's all about sounds.

One of my "come" cues is "psssst!" Sometimes in the heat of the moment, for example, on an agility course, it's so much easier to just get a sound out, so I think all your grunts and miscellaneous utterances are right on target :D .
leih merigian
Vrijheid's H'Geyser
Zodiac vom Younghaus (over the bridge)
Central VA (near Charlottesville)
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...

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