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Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

KNPV, Schutzhund, Ring, PSA, etc - General Discussion
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Use this forum for general discussion of Protection Sports. Please use the sub-forums for specific issues in the various phases.
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JacobSzewczyk
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Tell us about yourself: (Personal Trainer) I'm a fitness fanatic. If you have anything health related you can ask.
I'm currently not owning a Dutch shepherd, However i own a GSD X Rottweiler
I will be looking to get a quality DS soon though for FR or PSA.

Also, I will be applying to become a police officer. And hopefully a few years down the road into the K9 subdivison. Thank's for visiting my profile.

Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by JacobSzewczyk » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:10 am

Hello, every one i am looking into getting a Dutch shepherd for Schutzhund
I would like to know your opinions on them compared to the GSD for Schutzhund(Working line GSD's..)
And perhaps how they are overall in activities..
A bad thing ive read however is that dutchies/malinois think of thing's more as a game then being serious.. So i could explain into extreme detail but basically im 50/50 on this one. So decided to ask some Dutch Shepherd fans (:

I am a extremely athletic individual, with good experience from my previous dogs. I will be applying to become a police officer soon and hopefully after a few years go by.. Into the K9 subdivision which is Malinois/GSD/Dutch shepherd's in my location. Thanks i just joined so any information would be nice !
Jacob&Skye

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LyonsFamily
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Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by LyonsFamily » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:27 am

Not too many people on here are into bite sports anymore. Most of the old time members have left. We're training for PSA, so I can't give you much advice on your specific sport, but your best bet for information would be the working Dutch Shepherd Association facebook page. They're an IPO based organization and could probably help you out a lot better.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/177177378982736/
Stephanie
'Odin' NV PTA Odin of Another Kingdom RL1
'Elli' Drawing Our Own Constellations RL1 CGC CGCA

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JacobSzewczyk
Just Whelped
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:58 am
Tell us about yourself: (Personal Trainer) I'm a fitness fanatic. If you have anything health related you can ask.
I'm currently not owning a Dutch shepherd, However i own a GSD X Rottweiler
I will be looking to get a quality DS soon though for FR or PSA.

Also, I will be applying to become a police officer. And hopefully a few years down the road into the K9 subdivison. Thank's for visiting my profile.

Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by JacobSzewczyk » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:25 am

Thank you, appreciate your link. Alot !
Jacob&Skye

Selena
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Selena van Leeuwen, 35 yo, married to Dick. We have 2 children, a boy just turned 3 and a girl who will be 2 in may. We breed xHH, we developed our own bloodline with in mind how a PSD should be in our eyes.
Location: Scherpenzeel, fr, the netherlands
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Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by Selena » Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:58 pm

Our line doesnt do well in IPO, ob isnt "free" enough for the points usually. 1 female has her ipo 3, rest of our breeding mostly have their knpv cert, are in training or working security/police dog.

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Dutchringgirl
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Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
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Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by Dutchringgirl » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:26 pm

I did ring sport for many years. I dont know about Schutzhund but I hope I can help. As far as a game or not, it is the humans who made the sport more of a game then serious aggression because we are mostly family people so the dogs go home with us and hang with us. There were many who took it very seriously and their dogs were just machines and it was no where near a game for them. In Ring the GSD were just too heavy to do much. Personally I like the DS over GDS anyway. In the ring Club I was in, there were alot of DS who were being trained for police work and it was great to see the progression from the 'game' to the real deal.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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ICE
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Tell us about yourself: I have a 12 week old dutch shepherd that my trainer got for me to train in schutzhund. This is my 1st dutch shepherd, I have always had german shepherds. Currently, I have 4 dogs.

Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by ICE » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:22 pm

I agree with dutchring girl, as long as your dog is a companion not just a tool, a dutch shepherd will enjoy the sport as a game. I also agree with Selena, you will not get the flashy obedience needed for IPO with a Dutch. I have always had GSDs and Ice is my first Dutch Shepherd, in my experience so far, GSDs can and will do the flashy OB needed in IPO. Unless of course if there is a decoy on the field, at least for Ice, his OB will be superb!! :-) In IPO, that is where Ice and I struggle. He has nice correct OB but it is not fast, flashy and drivey like it needs to be for the points needed in IPO. In protection, he is a natural we have no issues there but you need all three phases. When he is working protection, he looks like a killer but he comes home and lays in my lap and runs in the yard with my 2 year old granddaughter. Because he doesn't seem to enjoy the OB portion and I don't like the frustration I feel we have been concentrating more on agility in which we both really love. Just my opinion with my limited experience. :D
Patty and Ice

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JacobSzewczyk
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Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:58 am
Tell us about yourself: (Personal Trainer) I'm a fitness fanatic. If you have anything health related you can ask.
I'm currently not owning a Dutch shepherd, However i own a GSD X Rottweiler
I will be looking to get a quality DS soon though for FR or PSA.

Also, I will be applying to become a police officer. And hopefully a few years down the road into the K9 subdivison. Thank's for visiting my profile.

Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by JacobSzewczyk » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:31 pm

Dutchringgirl: I didn't mean i want to be extremely serious about this. I mean't the dog's from statements ive seen only think of it as a game. However i would like to be taking it somewhat more serious then the average Joe, for 1 i will be looking to becoming a police officer in the near future, and 2 eventually i'd like to apply for a K9 subdivision if i have had schutzhund/PSA/Ring some form of dog training sport i could mention that. Which would point out i have more experience with this sort of thing then alot of other officers.. However i know that these are SPORTS not the real thing. However the OB is the main thing i'm looking for i wan't to be able to train the dog's to be virtually "perfect" Not perfect but you understand what i mean



http://vimeo.com/83987650


If i can attain this level of bonding with my dog. My world would be perfect. This indeed will be my best friend.. I'm not looking to have a dog and work the crap out of it to get titles however i wan't one to set me up for 1)Becoming a better dog owner/Trainer 2)Police officer (Hopefully) One day i wan't to be able to teach others a dog sport (:
Jacob&Skye

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Dutchringgirl
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Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
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Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by Dutchringgirl » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:33 am

You will have a good time with a DS, I am sure of it. I took it serious in the way that I trained every day and wanted to do well in the trials, but I enjoyed myself and had fun training. I get what you are talking about and the OB that I did in Ring was no joke and I worked my butt off with Thalie and we did great. I see that if you want to go and progress to police work, and that IS the real thing, then the OB will be a great focus and you can just put the time in and get that perfect OB. The DS pick it up so quick. Dont worry about the bonding, you WILL have a super bond with them. Thalie is like glue and follows me everywhere. I always lock her in a room because she stays right behind me and is so quiet I dont know she is there. DS's have an amazing bonding feature that you will love.

Again, I am not a big GSD person but from what you are saying, I would lean towards the DS.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:34 am

I agree with everything on here... We're also starting PSA and I was told to really develop OB with my guy.

One other thing a GSD breeder once told me there is that DS learn faster and tend to progress faster than GSDs. You really have to work to figure out the EXACT right way to say it to a GSD, but the Mals/DS get it better. Not sure if this is universal or maybe line specific - she claimed all her dogs and others she'd worked held true to this. Never had a GSD before so this is just what she claimed.
Kay
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Dutchringgirl
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Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
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Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by Dutchringgirl » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:29 pm

The reason I heard that many police and service are going to the DS/mal is because they are lighter and smarter than the GSD. Could be too , like you said Kira, on HOW you have to say it to a GSD. I find these guys get what your saying no matter how you say it to them, voice, point, run after them :player: just look at them, they just get what you are saying, or they are just smart enough to pull a trick out of their bag and it happens to be the right one. Either way, they are a breeze to work with.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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JacobSzewczyk
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Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:58 am
Tell us about yourself: (Personal Trainer) I'm a fitness fanatic. If you have anything health related you can ask.
I'm currently not owning a Dutch shepherd, However i own a GSD X Rottweiler
I will be looking to get a quality DS soon though for FR or PSA.

Also, I will be applying to become a police officer. And hopefully a few years down the road into the K9 subdivison. Thank's for visiting my profile.

Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by JacobSzewczyk » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:10 pm

Thank you very much for your inputs . I agree however I've been checking out the ring sports a bit more .. It looks that French ring requires more OB schutzhund main focus is the decoy protection part .. I guess I'll have to figure some more stuff out on which one I will decide doing ONCE I actually get my DS I gotta find a good breeder when I'm ready . The OB is my focus solely for the fact that I noticed when the K9's are out. Sure they have the capability to take down a suspect. But their obedience isn't necessarily the best.. In a real life situation without training from a sport, I can see the differences the dogs there have true aggression, however it's basically above average training nothing to special . If I did make it into the subdivision the dog would already have that aggression , the thing I'd need to focus with would be his/her obedience though. You go through a 14 week extreme training program with the dog .. After that it's all up to the handler to make the dog better in any ways .. I would like practice with this. Even if I did screw up with a DS for one thing (on the sport ) cause I didn't know how to do it. It could be fixed and corrected without to much worry. However the actually police dog if I messed up.. That could be pretty disasterous my main goal is pretty much get a DS to get to know the breed, practice with the breed (figure them out) and then one day prepare me for the future.
I'm thinking of trying to find a French ring sport because that focuses more on obedience and agility . Which would be more lifelike in the future ( dog chasing/jumping ) over objects etc better for the dog. Then reaching it to track negatively (assuming it's a dual purpose or single purpose) schutzhund forces tracking which wouldn't be good the dog wouldn't enjoy the actual thing. I'm thinking my best bet would be get a dutchie, take it into a ring sport , practice,practice,practice
Thanks.
Jacob&Skye

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Dutchringgirl
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Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
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Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by Dutchringgirl » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:48 pm

Only knowing FR, I can say that it can progress nicely into real life work. I used to work with my old trainer who used to train police dogs in my state and the bite work would progress with different real life scenarios and the dog would have just as much fun. We did car work, jumping over things, biting and having the decoy roll on the ground like a real guy. The search and holds are great and all of that can roll right into the police work. I used to work THalie on the Defense of handler with the carriage when the kids were younger.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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JacobSzewczyk
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Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:58 am
Tell us about yourself: (Personal Trainer) I'm a fitness fanatic. If you have anything health related you can ask.
I'm currently not owning a Dutch shepherd, However i own a GSD X Rottweiler
I will be looking to get a quality DS soon though for FR or PSA.

Also, I will be applying to become a police officer. And hopefully a few years down the road into the K9 subdivison. Thank's for visiting my profile.

Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by JacobSzewczyk » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:34 pm

That's great to hear.. I've done some research on SchH and it's kinda the opposite especially if i get a narcotics dog that may become a nightmare. I think i may be picking French Ring.. Going to have to check out the other ones though. One thing im really interested in, is the guard that object look's extremely fun to teach.
Jacob&Skye

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Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:01 am

I know PSA and FR translate very well into real life scenarios. PSA is insane when you get to PSA3 - one lady reported her dog had to retrieve raw meat, heavy metal disks, go search and guard a decoy in the forest then transport out, do jumps over 3 foot fences to guard a decoy with 2 decoys fighting next to the jump to agitate and a decoy yelling behind her... Insane. Have you looked into Mondioring too?

Lisa, is FR all hidden bite sleeves? Or is it full suit? FR is something we may go into later.

If you have clubs in your area, shoot the training director or leader an email asking to stop by and watch a session. I did that with a club before deciding IPO probably wasn't the best fit. But most clubs are open to having people stop on and watch and ask questions.

I know my club does some insane things in training. Check out k9workingdogs.org - they have a ton of crazy videos on their website and Facebook. It's fun to watch.
Kay
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JacobSzewczyk
Just Whelped
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:58 am
Tell us about yourself: (Personal Trainer) I'm a fitness fanatic. If you have anything health related you can ask.
I'm currently not owning a Dutch shepherd, However i own a GSD X Rottweiler
I will be looking to get a quality DS soon though for FR or PSA.

Also, I will be applying to become a police officer. And hopefully a few years down the road into the K9 subdivison. Thank's for visiting my profile.

Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by JacobSzewczyk » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:27 am

I have checked out quite a few FR video's and i must say it is quite amazing. I'm hoping i will be good enough of a handler to teach it ! Gonna need alot of practice with that haven't seen to many level 1 video's but they look fairly easy. I'm thinking i will work my way up as a dog trainer that way.. I think ive decided SchH isn't for me.. If i'm going to become a handler FR may be the way to go. Especially with a dutchie.
Jacob&Skye

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Dutchringgirl
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Location: Ct, USA
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Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by Dutchringgirl » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 am

FR is all suite. When the dog was training for police work, then the suite was hidden and my trainer had thinner suits to go under clothing so the dog would learn to just bite anything, yes , anything . We would train with the dog jumping over fences, bikes, all sorts of things and also have a few decoys on the field, anything to try to distract the dog. There is a search/ hold and search/ bite and transport. Its way cool. The fun part is Thalie still runs between my legs so i have to be careful when we play or ill land on my face.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by LyonsFamily » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:46 am

I will say that if you're planning on translating to real life tracking, the IPO forced track might drive you nuts.

I like PSA for the real life scenarios and how it's constantly changing. I watched a PSA3 routine with the dog being sent alone into a tent with a decoy running a leaf blower and chainsaw. Even the PDC (basic level) has scenarios that would be a benefit in real life personal protection as there's a hidden sleeve on the car jacking part and some full suit work.

We started out with doing some FR training, I love the look of the routines and the option for leg bites. Odin took the CSAU, but since he can't handle the physical part of bitework anymore, we didn't continue with that. Elli came to me with some PSA training, so I got into that recently with her, and it's way more my style. The points are mixed throughout the scenarios and competitors don't know what parts are worth more, so it's all about working as a team to get through everything rather than sticking to a pattern. I also like that there isn't any required touching of the dog for a social test. I personally want the option of deciding which strangers can pet my dog.
Stephanie
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Dutchringgirl
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Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by Dutchringgirl » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:51 am

The object guard is way cool but in reality, the training it takes to get the dog to really understand what he has to do and that he will be in oooodles of trouble if someone takes the basket. That was the part I did not like. My favorite is the Defense of handler.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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JacobSzewczyk
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Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:58 am
Tell us about yourself: (Personal Trainer) I'm a fitness fanatic. If you have anything health related you can ask.
I'm currently not owning a Dutch shepherd, However i own a GSD X Rottweiler
I will be looking to get a quality DS soon though for FR or PSA.

Also, I will be applying to become a police officer. And hopefully a few years down the road into the K9 subdivison. Thank's for visiting my profile.

Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by JacobSzewczyk » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:14 am

Indeed the SchH tracking compared to the real thing is way off. After checking out FR more i have found that this a much better route to take.. Either PSA or FR i will choose, However i think i will attend multiple events of both to see which one may be better.. I'm thinking PSA may be better for certain reasons.. (Constant changing of scenarios) Which would be VERY realistic to real life work.. Probably not going to always be chasing down bad guy's who stole a old ladies purse. If you know what i mean. However the OB in FR is amazing ! And yes i really do enjoy the object guard it look's really cool and LOL ooodles of trouble eh? I agree that the defense of the handler will be a very good technique.
Jacob&Skye

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Re: Cannot decide to which breed i will be using.

Post by Owned-By-Hendrix » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:26 am

Each has their pros and cons but they are two of my favorite sports. I would even suggest, Jacob, since they're so similar, training in both. Not at the same time but maybe when you reach the top level in FR try out the PSA-PDC. It could only help your skills and bond with a dog.

I know I'll try Hendrix in FR and PSA in his lifetime!
Kay
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(Tyson's Soul Twin)

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