A lot about Blue what about Black

[whk9k9]

I have been hearing and seeing what people are saying are Black Dutch shepherds. Is it possible? Honestly, the ones I am seeing look GSD to me but of course that just starts an argument. So I thought I would get a bit more educated by those who know. Too me DS are BRINDLE. Yes, various color, shades of brindle but brindle. I don't see Black as a standard acceptable color but is it genetically possible?

[Lauren]

I thought that you could only come up with black if Belgian Mal was mixed in...

Someone posted a wonderful genetics diagram that showed that DS have brindle code...(Br) Brindle is not as strong as Black (Bl), DS do not carry black but B. mals do..

Oh, I'll have another cup of coffee and try to remember where I saw that and how to better explain it.

OOOH! Here it is... right here on our forum. Search "All Black Litter" by tedge

[whk9k9]

Thanks. Will do. I knew it had been discussed before.

[GSDNanny]

I remember reading some hoopla about black Mals vs Groendaels (?sp). I'll have to research the link.

[Selena]

A dutchie is any shade of brindle, i incl the blue brindles . If we have a black dog in the litter it is a black x mali . Hedwig van Megan Bays here on the board is one of them.
Andor v ijsselvloed was a fci groendaler who was multiple times knpv champion in the mid 70's, the black x mali's all have him as a common enceister (sp?).

[whk9k9]

Thanks. So my assumption was right but wanted to make sure before I opened my mouth because I am good at that!

[Christie M]

The way I understood it is the black is a totally separate allele set. So the dog would have the same BB/Bb/bb pairing that would produce fawn or brindle, but if the black gene is present it will be expressed regardless. So I would say that genetically, if they are BB but still black, I would consider that a black DS. But if they are bb and black, then that would be a black mal. I don't know about Bb - because it would be a brindle dog if it didn't carry the black gene. LOL.

There is now a genetic test to see if brindle DS are BB or Bb. I wonder what that would show with the solid black dogs. Hmmmmm.....

I don't think its at all common though, without the inclusion of the KNPV genes that are outcrossed anyway.

[asheleylane]

Here is a site with a "flow chart" of dog color genetics - most of which do not apply to DS. Bascially you start with K-locus (I think this is what you are referring to as "B" Christie)
http://www.vetgen.com/canine-coat-color.html

My belief of the system working in DS is almost all based on the K-locus, of which there are 3 forms known (K^br, K^y, K^B) ... K^br K^br is "pure" brindle. K^y K^br is a brindle dog carrying fawn, with brindle being dominant over fawn. K^either br or y, with K^B produces black (or theoretically solid brown but that doesn't seem to happen) So K^B will hide if the dog has the other allele brindle or fawn, the dog will always be black if it has that allele.
This would be so much easier if I could make superscripts but hopefully you can follow the ^'s ok

[Marjolein]

It has nothing to do with the K locus, it's the A locus, as you can also see in the chart Asheley refers to.

If you have a dog that is brindle (Kbr/Kbr or Kbr/Ky) and for A locus had Ay/Ay (or Ay/a or Ay/At, very unlikely for DS I think) the dog wil look like the DS we know, brindle on a (all shades of) yellow underground.
Now if a dog has a/a (recessive black) the brindle will still be there, but as brindle is black, on a black background...you will see...only black!

It is impossible to have a dominant black (KB) dog from two brindle parents because any dog carrying this gene IS in fact black, the parents could never show brindle

[vneerland]

The way I understood it is the black is a totally separate allele set. So the dog would have the same BB/Bb/bb pairing that would produce fawn or brindle, but if the black gene is present it will be expressed regardless. So I would say that genetically, if they are BB but still black, I would consider that a black DS.

It was already said, but blacK is noted as K.
Because B was taken by Brown. (I know, very confusing, right?)
Also note that I assume the question is about solid black dogs, lacking all brindle. :Because there are DS's who appear very dark to the eye, but who are still brindle. In that case, you are totally right, they are still DS's, just in a dark dark shade. The standard says, subjectively, that "too much black" is not desired, but that aside.

It has nothing to do with the K locus, it's the A locus, as you can also see in the chart Asheley refers to.

I know what you mean, but it is confusing like this. Yes, Black is related to the K locus.
It is the first dominant allele on that Locus, KB =black. Next allele on the locus is Kbr, in wich the black shows in some area's of the body, but not in others. The area's where it does not show will show the A locus coming through. So the red 'stripes' are actually the 'under color' caused by the A locus.

If you have a dog that is brindle (Kbr/Kbr or Kbr/Ky) and for A locus had Ay/Ay (or Ay/a or Ay/At, very unlikely for DS I think) the dog wil look like the DS we know, brindle on a (all shades of) yellow underground. Now if a dog has a/a (recessive black) the brindle will still be there, but as brindle is black, on a black background...you will see...only black!

Yes, in theory you could get a recessive black DS. BUT. I think it is theory only. There are very very few black malinois born in FCI lines that are recessive black. I have heard of only one or two in the past 25 years. (but If someone knows of any, I would LOVE to hear who/where) The black malinois in KNPV is, like Selena already said, a KB product that comes from a groenendealer=Belgian Sheepdog in the 70's. (andor vd ijsselvloed) Those dogs are KB, and while they can hide Kbr as the second allele on that K locus**, they will also most likely produce 50% solid black dogs with a brindle or fawn partner.

**Of course, I know you all know that for every trait, we possess two copies, one given by each parent. One will display (the dominant one) and one will hide (the recessive one) Both copies can be identical, and then we say that someone is homozygous for a trait. If the copies are different, we say that someone is hetrozygous.

It is impossible to have a dominant black (KB) dog from two brindle parents because any dog carrying this gene IS in fact black, the parents could never show brindle

You got it! Dominant traits can hide recessive traits. But recessive traits cannot hide dominant ones. So if (KB) black is dominant over brindle, two brindle dogs will not be able to produce a black.
Unless....(we are talking about recessive black, a totally recessive trait on another (A) locus, but let's not go there, because there is virtually no recessive black in either FCI DS's nor KNPV DS's)

[Christie M]

Thank you so much for posting the specifics. I can't say that I totally get it, but I think I do. I always have to draw it out to make it more simplistic, hence my BB/Bb/bb terminology. I'm not sure where I got that actually, but it has always made it the most simple to explain to others.

So I guess in answer to Trudy's question, a black DS COULD occur but if would be off of the A allele, but it would be a miracle dog The others would be considered mixes of some sort - mostly likely termed a black malinois from KNPV lines that may or may not have brindle behind it in the pedigree.

I'm trying to draw it out in my head.

[vneerland]

So I guess in answer to Trudy's question, a black DS COULD occur but if would be off of the A allele, but it would be a miracle dog The others would be considered mixes of some sort - mostly likely termed a black malinois from KNPV lines that may or may not have brindle behind it in the pedigree.

Yup. You are right.

Trying not to make it too confusing, but on the K locus, you have
KB = dominant black
Kbr = brindle: the black shows in stripes
Ky = Absence of black (on the body) allowing the A locus to show. A locus (agouti) is yellow, like a malinois, and the y stands for yellow.
Dominant black (KB) is the most dominant allele on the K locus. No matter what other allele it is paired with, the offspring will have 50% chance of being black if the black dog is hetrozygous (KB/kbr or KB/ky), 100% black is the black dog is homozygous (KB/KB)

On the A locus you have:
Ay = yellow, the color of a malinois
aw = wolf color sable, like a sable German shepherd
at = black and tan
aa = absence of yellow, allowing the black on the K locus the show.
IF you had a DS with 'aa' recessive black, it could still be brindle (kbr), but where normally the gold shows, it would be black on an 'aa' dog. Recessive black (aa) dogs can easily produce the other colors of the A locus again, with the right partner. After all, this kind of black is recessive to all the other allele on the locus, so it is easy to overwrite by the other more dominant alleles.
Obviously, black dogs would have been passed over when selecting for brindle, and recessive black exists in theory, but is extremely rare in DS's or even Belgians these days.

So black malinois, from KNPV lines are almost always KB dominant black.
They HAVE to have at least one parent who is black. If their other parent was a DS, the black dog could carry kbr or ky as the second allele.
Depending on the partner, a KB black dog, that had a DS for a parent, could be KB/kbr and when paired with a malinois (ky/ky) you could actually get 50% black and 50% brindle pups!
Or if it is KB/ky and there partner is kbr/kbr, then you would get 50% black and 50% brindle pups, with all the brindle pups being ky yellow carriers.
Aren't genetics fun?

[Marjolein]

Yes, in theory you could get a recessive black DS. BUT. I think it is theory only. There are very very few black malinois born in FCI lines that are recessive black. I have heard of only one or two in the past 25 years. (but If someone knows of any, I would LOVE to hear who/where)

I agree with that, I have never heard of a black dog being born in any FCI line. Not even in the ones where some KNPV blood was mixed into.
I would love to know about the one or two you know???

I guess I was thinking too much in the FCI-box with my explanation, in KNPV lines it is much more likely to be dominant black, but like you said, at least one parent would have to be black to start with.

[Selena]

So black malinois, from KNPV lines are almost always KB dominant black.
They HAVE to have at least one parent who is black. If their other parent was a DS, the black dog could carry kbr or ky as the second allele.
Depending on the partner, a KB black dog, that had a DS for a parent, could be KB/kbr and when paired with a malinois (ky/ky) you could actually get 50% black and 50% brindle pups!
Or if it is KB/ky and there partner is kbr/kbr, then you would get 50% black and 50% brindle pups, with all the brindle pups being ky yellow carriers.
Aren't genetics fun?

as example, see the litter of megan. Bor is brindle from a xhh x xhh/mh, hedwig is black from a black mal out of black x xhh and samefather as Bor.

[MeganBays]

To echo Selena's post...

I can't figure out to link the bloodlines, so if anyone is interested in looking at the bloodlines of the dogs then this is the website to look them. You can type in the BRN/BNN numbers in the search box. http://www.bloedlijnen.nl/

The momma to our litter, Hedwig "Loki", BRN 16148:


The father, Bor, BRN 16164:


The babies, BNN 3130:

Brindle Female


Black Male

There are both black and brindle pups in the litter; we call the brindle ones Dutchies and the solid black ones Black Malinois. Much simpler that way for me.

[alspyce]

So now I need to ask about the brown (Liver) DS that I found a photo of on FB????

[Selena]

Probably a blue dog

[Marjolein]

So now I need to ask about the brown (Liver) DS that I found a photo of on FB????

how about posting that photo...that could help...

[vneerland]

So now I need to ask about the brown (Liver) DS that I found a photo of on FB????

Not possible if it is a real liver. (bb brown) DS's do not have a recessive for 'brown' which is a mechanism much like blue, where the black pigment gets turned into brown (instead of grey/blue with our blue DS's)
Both parents would have to pass on a copy for dilluted brown, and since that is not available in the breed, there is no chance that a DS could actually get that. Pitbulls have bb brown. And brindle. Maybe somebody in the woodpile has had some dillute brown genes, but that excludes each parent from being more than 50% DS to begin with, in order for the offspring to end up liver colored.
Or, like Selena said, it is dd blue, but misunderstood.

[alspyce]

So now I need to ask about the brown (Liver) DS that I found a photo of on FB????

how about posting that photo...that could help...

Had to hijack these, but here you are. I know it's a mix, just hoping we don't see too many of them slipping into the gene pool.

Liver DS pup.jpg (218.2 KiB) Viewed 10955 times

Liver DS.jpg (125.58 KiB) Viewed 10955 times