Talking with my trainer who does PSA said he personally wouldn't buy a dog that didn't have both parents with at least a PSA II title. Even then, out of that litter, there might be only one or two dogs who would be suitable for taking them to that level or beyond. Basically it takes a calm, even, hard dog to make it to those levels. Further stated, he could get a nervy dog to Sch 3 title but the same dog wouldn't even make it past PSA I. I notice a lot of breeders for Dutch Shepherds but not many that are titled or if they are titled, mostly show titles or whatever. Just curious what breeders are doing these days for a breeding pool of Dutchies since so few dogs are formerly titled.
M
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What titles are Dutch breeders breeding into?
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Re: What titles are Dutch breeders breeding into?
You're going to get the sport bias from a lot of trainers and no sport is perfect. I think PSA offers some great challenges and it is harder for a nervy dog to do well in the higher levels, but with a good trainer and helper, and very strong obedience, a not so perfect dog could still title over time. Elli is super handler sensitive and needs a bit more confidence to be worked outside of prey drive, but I'm shooting for her PDC this year and then her PSA 1 and she could get farther if I put the time and money into it. She's a great dog for me, but not something I'd breed to further the working dog gene pool even if she did get a 2 or 3 eventually.
Some IPO/Schutzhund trainers are going to be saying that PSA Level 3 dogs lack the calmness and handler focus to score well in the routines of IPO. Ring trainers are going to push their sport. I don't think a title in any sport is the 100% perfect breed tests and I prefer to see breeders focusing on more than just proving a dog with one title.
You also have the dogs that are true military/police/narcotics dogs that will never see a sports venue, but they prove their ability in the real world.
I think it's too hard to build a breeding program around just achieving a specific title level and only picking dogs that can earn it. Certain traits need to be complimented and sometimes an over the top PSA 3 dog bred to an over the top PSA 3 bitch might get you a puppy or two that are great for military work, but then you have the rest of the litter of crazy dogs that need to be homed too and they're just not suitable for anything. Wasn't Riddick bred untitled? Obviously Cher Car wanted something a little different for their litters and didn't seem to have a problem placing them.
You also have to consider that a lot of breeders are going on to title their dogs after having a litter or two, but they know the potential is there based on how it's been getting that Brevet or PDC and in training. A lot of those conformation titled dogs also have CSAUs or BHs after their names and are training to continue competing later. Conformation is an easy sport to get young dogs out and exposure to trialing and might be a first step to a life time of career competing. I see nothing wrong with a conformation title, especially in UKC, if the dog isn't bred solely for looks and winning in the show ring.
Not every title you see on a pedigree was earned before puppies were made. A lot of people aren't competing until 3 years old, and then taking their time getting the titles to keep the dog's stability and safety in mind and the dog might be 6 or 7 before getting a PSA3. Sometimes that's too old for a first time mom to have a litter. My friend has a mal with a mom that has her FR2 and is working on her FR3. He was born when she only had a CSAU, but it doesn't make him any less of a good dog. The breeder didn't want to interrupt competing and training for a litter, but knew the potential, so she bred before. My friend also has the pup's aunt and has been training with her for many years, so she knew the lines and he's doing very well trialing for French Ring, will probably get his FR1 by the end of this year.
My only requirements for a breeder bought Dutch Shepherd that are set in stone are hip and elbow results from a third party (OFA or PennHip). Bonus points for spine x-rays. The rest I'd value based on the whole package. I'd like to see generations of the dogs working in any venue and titled dogs throughout the pedigree. I also would evaluate what older offspring from either parents are turning out like, especially if the same combination has been used before. Most importantly, I'd like to see a breeding program with a mission, not just putting dogs together or adding malinois whenever they feel like it or to sell dogs.
A PSA1 registered therapy dog would outweight a PSA3 dog that was handler aggressive for me, because I want it also to be a family dog and able to do competitive obedience and maybe agility. Some handlers and trainers want a dog purely for sport or personal protection and are ok with it living in a kennel. This breed is so versatile, if every breeder stuck to one set of standards, there would be no reason to pick one over the other. I don't think you can write a magic equation to produce dogs one correct way.
Some IPO/Schutzhund trainers are going to be saying that PSA Level 3 dogs lack the calmness and handler focus to score well in the routines of IPO. Ring trainers are going to push their sport. I don't think a title in any sport is the 100% perfect breed tests and I prefer to see breeders focusing on more than just proving a dog with one title.
You also have the dogs that are true military/police/narcotics dogs that will never see a sports venue, but they prove their ability in the real world.
I think it's too hard to build a breeding program around just achieving a specific title level and only picking dogs that can earn it. Certain traits need to be complimented and sometimes an over the top PSA 3 dog bred to an over the top PSA 3 bitch might get you a puppy or two that are great for military work, but then you have the rest of the litter of crazy dogs that need to be homed too and they're just not suitable for anything. Wasn't Riddick bred untitled? Obviously Cher Car wanted something a little different for their litters and didn't seem to have a problem placing them.
You also have to consider that a lot of breeders are going on to title their dogs after having a litter or two, but they know the potential is there based on how it's been getting that Brevet or PDC and in training. A lot of those conformation titled dogs also have CSAUs or BHs after their names and are training to continue competing later. Conformation is an easy sport to get young dogs out and exposure to trialing and might be a first step to a life time of career competing. I see nothing wrong with a conformation title, especially in UKC, if the dog isn't bred solely for looks and winning in the show ring.
Not every title you see on a pedigree was earned before puppies were made. A lot of people aren't competing until 3 years old, and then taking their time getting the titles to keep the dog's stability and safety in mind and the dog might be 6 or 7 before getting a PSA3. Sometimes that's too old for a first time mom to have a litter. My friend has a mal with a mom that has her FR2 and is working on her FR3. He was born when she only had a CSAU, but it doesn't make him any less of a good dog. The breeder didn't want to interrupt competing and training for a litter, but knew the potential, so she bred before. My friend also has the pup's aunt and has been training with her for many years, so she knew the lines and he's doing very well trialing for French Ring, will probably get his FR1 by the end of this year.
My only requirements for a breeder bought Dutch Shepherd that are set in stone are hip and elbow results from a third party (OFA or PennHip). Bonus points for spine x-rays. The rest I'd value based on the whole package. I'd like to see generations of the dogs working in any venue and titled dogs throughout the pedigree. I also would evaluate what older offspring from either parents are turning out like, especially if the same combination has been used before. Most importantly, I'd like to see a breeding program with a mission, not just putting dogs together or adding malinois whenever they feel like it or to sell dogs.
A PSA1 registered therapy dog would outweight a PSA3 dog that was handler aggressive for me, because I want it also to be a family dog and able to do competitive obedience and maybe agility. Some handlers and trainers want a dog purely for sport or personal protection and are ok with it living in a kennel. This breed is so versatile, if every breeder stuck to one set of standards, there would be no reason to pick one over the other. I don't think you can write a magic equation to produce dogs one correct way.
Stephanie
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Re: What titles are Dutch breeders breeding into?
Great reply Stephanie.
I'll chime in my 2 cents in a bit. I'm a PSA judge, and am wondering what trainer you are using. That will give me more insight into the advise.
What I can tell you is that PSA was initially created with the three levels testing very different things. The PDC was added later as an alternative for people who didn't teach attention and just wanted a doable certification. It was not a title and not a part of the original sport. It just created something very achievable for almost anyone and provided positive success early on for competitors. So the levels originally started with PSA1.
PSA1 should test the nerve of a dog. Done right, a dog with any nerve issue is not going to get past the Attack on Handler followed by the Courage Test. Also, the Car Jacking is a very personal, civil scenario where the dog is in a fight or flight situation with no flight option. So I put a lot of value on the PSA1 (especially when done at a Regional or National Event) when it comes to determining a dog's temperament.
PSA2 was a test of the handler's ability to train. The scenarios are more complicated, testing if the dog is pattern trained, knows a variety of components (send into a guard vs. send in to a bite. Out to a guard vs. out and recall...etc) and can perform obedience with active decoys on the field. So it is more a test of skill sets and training - a test of training - than it is a test of a dog. (Trainer's Level)
PSA3 is a test of those two things put together, as well as can the handler think on their feet and handle everything being a complete surprise. More dogs fail this because the handler didn't work their dog correctly through it than anything else. It is HARD. That is for sure. It is the epitome of the original sport motto of "Train everything. Expect anything." There is a lot more pressure put on dogs in this level as well. Lots more decoy agitation in obedience, extreme test of nerve with tight areas, environmental pressure, hard muzzle attacks.....lots of stuff. But since only a very small amount of dogs make it to this level - and fewer females because most prefer to work males, the breeds would go extinct if this was a breeding criteria.
Honestly, if a PSA2 on both parents was a breeding criteria the breeds would go extinct. Maybe one litter a year is born that meets that.
As Stephanie stated, every person plays a sport because they like it the best and think it is the best. I have been in PSA since its inception. But I see a tremendous amount of value in the other sports as well. People who say IPO is weak are basing their entire opinion of a sport on club trials where gimmes are given. When you know what to look for, you can see the dogs in IPO that bring true aggression to the table. What is impressive is to see those dogs full of rage, who can cap it and show an impressive bark and hold. I also think having three aspects makes it very difficult and you MUST be committed. Tracking is tedious and takes time. Dealing with DAILY training and structure is a good test of nerve as well. Can they hold up to the constant demands and still put on a successful routine? And honestly, they are the only sport with true nosework required - a HUGE component of any true working dog. Lastly the precision in all phases is a test in itself. So IPO titles can be a very impressive thing, if you have seen and evaluated the dog yourself. An IPO3 on someone's club field with club decoys. Maybe not so impressive. An IPO3 at a National Event with great scores and a dog that is working his butt off - very impressive.
I love French & Mondio Ring, but since I have never formally trained them, I can't speak tot he nuances that make them unique and valuable.
Personally, I believe that titles are valuable for breeding prospects because they demonstrate the dogs ability to perform behaviors as well as its ability to handle the stress of formal training and trialing. I do believe there are some people who can evaluate a dog and know if the dog is a good breeding candidate. If I trust that person, then I would put less emphasis on titles. But the reality is, outside of a few people that person really knows, no one else should take them at their word. The dog world is dirty and people constantly oversell their dogs.
I think the gold standard for working dogs has been basically set as obtaining an entry level title in some working sport with someone with a hard earned reputation for producing consistently good working dogs. Sometimes that is just a BH. Sometimes it is a level three. Lastly, as Stephanie also mentioned, you have to look at YOUR goals. Most people are not wanting to go to the highest levels. They don't want a dog that has to be crated every moment it is not under command. They want a stable companion that can hold its own on the field. For MOST people, dog sports are just a hobby. That is the part that competitors have a hard time keeping in perspective.
I'll chime in my 2 cents in a bit. I'm a PSA judge, and am wondering what trainer you are using. That will give me more insight into the advise.
What I can tell you is that PSA was initially created with the three levels testing very different things. The PDC was added later as an alternative for people who didn't teach attention and just wanted a doable certification. It was not a title and not a part of the original sport. It just created something very achievable for almost anyone and provided positive success early on for competitors. So the levels originally started with PSA1.
PSA1 should test the nerve of a dog. Done right, a dog with any nerve issue is not going to get past the Attack on Handler followed by the Courage Test. Also, the Car Jacking is a very personal, civil scenario where the dog is in a fight or flight situation with no flight option. So I put a lot of value on the PSA1 (especially when done at a Regional or National Event) when it comes to determining a dog's temperament.
PSA2 was a test of the handler's ability to train. The scenarios are more complicated, testing if the dog is pattern trained, knows a variety of components (send into a guard vs. send in to a bite. Out to a guard vs. out and recall...etc) and can perform obedience with active decoys on the field. So it is more a test of skill sets and training - a test of training - than it is a test of a dog. (Trainer's Level)
PSA3 is a test of those two things put together, as well as can the handler think on their feet and handle everything being a complete surprise. More dogs fail this because the handler didn't work their dog correctly through it than anything else. It is HARD. That is for sure. It is the epitome of the original sport motto of "Train everything. Expect anything." There is a lot more pressure put on dogs in this level as well. Lots more decoy agitation in obedience, extreme test of nerve with tight areas, environmental pressure, hard muzzle attacks.....lots of stuff. But since only a very small amount of dogs make it to this level - and fewer females because most prefer to work males, the breeds would go extinct if this was a breeding criteria.
Honestly, if a PSA2 on both parents was a breeding criteria the breeds would go extinct. Maybe one litter a year is born that meets that.
As Stephanie stated, every person plays a sport because they like it the best and think it is the best. I have been in PSA since its inception. But I see a tremendous amount of value in the other sports as well. People who say IPO is weak are basing their entire opinion of a sport on club trials where gimmes are given. When you know what to look for, you can see the dogs in IPO that bring true aggression to the table. What is impressive is to see those dogs full of rage, who can cap it and show an impressive bark and hold. I also think having three aspects makes it very difficult and you MUST be committed. Tracking is tedious and takes time. Dealing with DAILY training and structure is a good test of nerve as well. Can they hold up to the constant demands and still put on a successful routine? And honestly, they are the only sport with true nosework required - a HUGE component of any true working dog. Lastly the precision in all phases is a test in itself. So IPO titles can be a very impressive thing, if you have seen and evaluated the dog yourself. An IPO3 on someone's club field with club decoys. Maybe not so impressive. An IPO3 at a National Event with great scores and a dog that is working his butt off - very impressive.
I love French & Mondio Ring, but since I have never formally trained them, I can't speak tot he nuances that make them unique and valuable.
Personally, I believe that titles are valuable for breeding prospects because they demonstrate the dogs ability to perform behaviors as well as its ability to handle the stress of formal training and trialing. I do believe there are some people who can evaluate a dog and know if the dog is a good breeding candidate. If I trust that person, then I would put less emphasis on titles. But the reality is, outside of a few people that person really knows, no one else should take them at their word. The dog world is dirty and people constantly oversell their dogs.
I think the gold standard for working dogs has been basically set as obtaining an entry level title in some working sport with someone with a hard earned reputation for producing consistently good working dogs. Sometimes that is just a BH. Sometimes it is a level three. Lastly, as Stephanie also mentioned, you have to look at YOUR goals. Most people are not wanting to go to the highest levels. They don't want a dog that has to be crated every moment it is not under command. They want a stable companion that can hold its own on the field. For MOST people, dog sports are just a hobby. That is the part that competitors have a hard time keeping in perspective.
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
- Christie M
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Re: What titles are Dutch breeders breeding into?
I love this statement!!LyonsFamily wrote:This breed is so versatile, if every breeder stuck to one set of standards, there would be no reason to pick one over the other. I don't think you can write a magic equation to produce dogs one correct way.
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
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Re: What titles are Dutch breeders breeding into?
Both of you, thank you- a ton of information and experience written here for sure. I'm wanting to take my dog to a certain level. I think he'll do fine but it will take time- mostly because I am not a trainer. I just judge if my dog is safe around people and obedient. I've been working with my dog in basic obedience for the past year, hand signals, multiple languages for commands and now am introducing the bite work in order to move onto PSA training. However my dog is my companion, I trust him completely. Christie mentioned about these advanced dogs being crated all the time when not training- that is true from what I've seen with where I'm training my animal. Personally, I don't think I'm interested in that aspect- my dog is my buddy, he sleeps on the floor next to my bed, he's always right there with me, and I take him everywhere. When I leave the house, he has full access to the house and frankly- I want a trustworthy animal above all else.
M
M