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Blues

General "standards" discussion not specifically related to the coat variety
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Dutchringgirl
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Re: Blues

Post by Dutchringgirl » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:48 pm

Schlussdibusti wrote:A friend of mine who is in dog rescue (she has always about 10 dogs on her property - mostly Bull Mastiffs) said that all brindle dogs are a pain in the a.. doesn't matter what breed, boxer, pit, greyhound, mastoff, ... That explaind a lot, doesn't it :whistle: :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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alspyce
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Tell us about yourself: I am in New York State. Got my first DS about 14 years ago (more or less as a rescue- lost her in Nov.). After years of GSD's, and a few dogs of other breeds (Rotti/Beauceron/Ger. Shorthaired Pointer/ Yorkie and my current Jack Russell) I now have another DS, 4mo female, no name yet, tho I have a few in mind.
Also have a horse-old quarter horse mare-32.
Can't wait for all the snow to get gone! Spring is coming too slow this year!
Location: Corinth, New York

Re: Blues

Post by alspyce » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:09 pm

vneerland wrote:
alspyce wrote:Remember when Blue was considered "a lethal gene" in the GSD's? ( breeders killed them/or they died of other problems) I have some reservations about it becoming rampant in the DS population also. Fads are never good for any breed and my opinion of folks who breed only for color (or only for any other factor) is not very high. Often these pups are sold with a higher price and called "rare", even tho they may be very bad in temperment/conformation/health. :twocents:
If people are stupid enough to kill blue GSD's because the gene is supposedly lethal, then I guess they were right...it became a lethal gene when they bucketed the pups. :( It has happened quite a bit with the fawn and blue FCI DS's too. I have no doubt at all that a good number of 'unwanted' recessives, regardless of what breed they occur in, end up as evidence removed, if you catch my drift. Then once a bloodline goes on to other breeders, and produces the recessive oops color, the original breeder is still 'busted', but most people don't think that way. :o It is so easy to blame the sire for the 'problem' when lots of colors require two copies, so involvement of both parents.
I doubt the color breeders would have much motivation to mass produce blue DS's. The breed standard does not disallow it, but the eyes of a blue are always light and should, according to the breed standard, be dark. The blue brindles will not win a show when pitted against a black brindle. For work, color does not matter. So the buyers in that group will be less likely to have an outspoken preference for blue. I do not doubt that there are breeders that price a blue brindle higher :evil: but I am naive enough to assume that it will not become a great problem (color breeders) due to the current nature of the DS clientele.
That was my point----that culling would only cover up the unwanted color,(Breeders do seem to hide the faults in their own dogs----but criticize everyone else's) then the rest of the litter could continue to pass the undesirable trait in future generations, which at some point would end up becoming a fad for Pet breeders (who don't read/care about Breed Standards) to push off on the public as "rare",.
I am sure that this breed will eventually "catch on" with the public as a new "designer dog", but hopefully it will not last long enough to do the damage that has been done to other breeds.

I don't recall seeing anything but black or yellow Labs as a kid--but now it seems like they have a new color every time I turn around --and they're on everyone's back porch! Also--some of these colors have been added to the breed standard now as being allowed.(tho maybe less desirable)

I don't care for Sable myself, but it is a dominante color in GSD's.
I also hate seeing ANY white in the chest---the standard allowed for a SMALL white mark on chest only---Now I'm seeing BIS dogs with Blazes of white that sometimes finally disapear between the legs!

I do understand that NO fault can be corrected in only a generation or two, I just hate to see it become so saturated in the breed that it can't be gotten rid of at all. :twocents:
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MeganBays
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Re: Blues

Post by MeganBays » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:55 pm

As long as the dog still functions correctly (and healthily) as well as works with the proper temperament and characteristics I could care less what they look like. Albeit I have a preferred "look" in my dogs it is not the base of my breeding program. But I'm also far from the confirmation ring, and could not tell you the first thing about the breed standard ;) . My goals and priorities are completely irrelevant to what looks good in the show ring.

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vneerland
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Re: Blues

Post by vneerland » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:41 pm

Schlussdibusti wrote:A friend of mine who is in dog rescue (she has always about 10 dogs on her property - mostly Bull Mastiffs) said that all brindle dogs are a pain in the a.. doesn't matter what breed, boxer, pit, greyhound, mastoff, ... That explaind a lot, doesn't it :whistle: :lol:
Sure it does! ;) It is, after all, the same locus in all of those breeds, that makes them brindle. :player:
alspyce wrote: I don't recall seeing anything but black or yellow Labs as a kid--but now it seems like they have a new color every time I turn around --and they're on everyone's back porch! Also--some of these colors have been added to the breed standard now as being allowed.(tho maybe less desirable)

I don't care for Sable myself, but it is a dominante color in GSD's.
I also hate seeing ANY white in the chest---the standard allowed for a SMALL white mark on chest only---Now I'm seeing BIS dogs with Blazes of white that sometimes finally disapear between the legs!

I do understand that NO fault can be corrected in only a generation or two, I just hate to see it become so saturated in the breed that it can't be gotten rid of at all. :twocents:
Between the yellow and the black labs, the only other shade that can occur naturally, would be chocolate. If they added that to the allowed colors, they only admitted that oops (recessive) happens. If it becomes anything wilder than black, brown or yellow, though, (let's for the sake of discussion say brindle) then they are messing with the desired colors. :yernuts:
As for white chests. It happens in Malinois and DS too, thoug of course a white patch does not diminish the workability, but once you start to accept it as normal, it is often there to stay. There have been a few prominent Malinois sires, who passed on that long white stripe quite prominently. (Elgos du chemin des plaines) and whenever I see it on a DS, I look for the head shape and think "Elgos in the woodpile" :duh:
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Dutchringgirl
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Re: Blues

Post by Dutchringgirl » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:19 pm

MeganBays wrote:As long as the dog still functions correctly

Define "functions correclty" :whistle: :whistle:
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
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alspyce
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Tell us about yourself: I am in New York State. Got my first DS about 14 years ago (more or less as a rescue- lost her in Nov.). After years of GSD's, and a few dogs of other breeds (Rotti/Beauceron/Ger. Shorthaired Pointer/ Yorkie and my current Jack Russell) I now have another DS, 4mo female, no name yet, tho I have a few in mind.
Also have a horse-old quarter horse mare-32.
Can't wait for all the snow to get gone! Spring is coming too slow this year!
Location: Corinth, New York

Re: Blues

Post by alspyce » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:13 pm

MeganBays wrote:As long as the dog still functions correctly (and healthily) as well as works with the proper temperament and characteristics I could care less what they look like. Albeit I have a preferred "look" in my dogs it is not the base of my breeding program. But I'm also far from the confirmation ring, and could not tell you the first thing about the breed standard ;) . My goals and priorities are completely irrelevant to what looks good in the show ring.

Megan Bays
http://www.kolemountainkennels.com
Standards are not meant only for "show dogs", but to determine a structural type which supposedly will allow the animal to continue to do the types of work it was originally intended to do, and hopefully, continue to be sound in body and mind while they do it.
It is only my opinion that if someone is breeding dogs, they should be looking for more than just how hard they can bite, or even how Pretty they are. See the animal as a whole package.
"Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened." Anatole France
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MeganBays
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Re: Blues

Post by MeganBays » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:26 pm

vneerland wrote: As for white chests. It happens in Malinois and DS too, thoug of course a white patch does not diminish the workability, but once you start to accept it as normal, it is often there to stay. There have been a few prominent Malinois sires, who passed on that long white stripe quite prominently. (Elgos du chemin des plaines) and whenever I see it on a DS, I look for the head shape and think "Elgos in the woodpile" :duh:
The litter I currently have has some white patches on their chest, and I had someone mention Elgos being stuck in there (they were joking though). :D It amused me, and reading this post made me smile about it again!

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Marjolein
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Re: Blues

Post by Marjolein » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:23 pm

vneerland wrote: Between the yellow and the black labs, the only other shade that can occur naturally, would be chocolate. If they added that to the allowed colors, they only admitted that oops (recessive) happens. If it becomes anything wilder than black, brown or yellow, though, (let's for the sake of discussion say brindle) then they are messing with the desired colors. :yernuts:
ah, I understand you missed out on the latest news in labby-land, it's all the rage, the "silver" lab! And gues what that looks like... http://www.silverlabs.com/

But I'll have to agree with Judith, it will not be popular in DS's, other than the eyes, standard also says "black mask preferred" And the mask will be blue too ;) Reason enough to never win a show :roll: I'm still hoping to own one once, when I have enough space to keep an "extra" one... well, space we have, Johan does not want over 3 dogs right now... Why??? :yernuts: :mrgreen:
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Re: Blues

Post by MeganBays » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:29 pm

I've never seen the silver labs, they are quite pretty though. They look almost like a cross between a Weimeraner (I probably totally jacked that spelling up lol) and lab. Interesting.

I've seen the ones that are basically white (mostly pets) and then the ones that are a very red color (mainly out of field stock). I hadn't seen that color though, not that I'm all that versed on labs. :)
Marjolein wrote:
vneerland wrote: Between the yellow and the black labs, the only other shade that can occur naturally, would be chocolate. If they added that to the allowed colors, they only admitted that oops (recessive) happens. If it becomes anything wilder than black, brown or yellow, though, (let's for the sake of discussion say brindle) then they are messing with the desired colors. :yernuts:
ah, I understand you missed out on the latest news in labby-land, it's all the rage, the "silver" lab! And gues what that looks like... http://www.silverlabs.com/

But I'll have to agree with Judith, it will not be popular in DS's, other than the eyes, standard also says "black mask preferred" And the mask will be blue too ;) Reason enough to never win a show :roll: I'm still hoping to own one once, when I have enough space to keep an "extra" one... well, space we have, Johan does not want over 3 dogs right now... Why??? :yernuts: :mrgreen:
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Re: Blues

Post by Marjolein » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:39 pm

MeganBays wrote:I've never seen the silver labs, they are quite pretty though. They look almost like a cross between a Weimeraner (I probably totally jacked that spelling up lol) and lab.
They do look like Weims, maybe they mixed it in? Your spelling was pretty good: Weimaraner ;)
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Re: Blues

Post by leih merigian » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:13 pm

so, apparently, there are "silver factored" chocolates... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Blues

Post by vneerland » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:42 pm

MeganBays wrote:The litter I currently have has some white patches on their chest, and I had someone mention Elgos being stuck in there (they were joking though). :D It amused me, and reading this post made me smile about it again!
I would venture to guess you have no earthly clue where the white comes from, other than the obvious: from the parents. :twisted: White patches are not that unusual in KNPV. There is no telling where it started, but of course, both FCI and KNPV groups share a lot of the same blood. If you look at a lot of the working FCI malinois these days, you will spot (pun intended) the long tie-like blazes that Elgos had. Naturally, he had gotten it somewhere before he started passing it on though. But sure. Huge white area's of white can also indicate bull dog in the woodpile. There is certainly more than one culpit, no doubt about that. I have been aroudn the breed long enough, though, to know for sure that white used to be less prevalent than it is today. Go figure.
alspyce wrote:Standards are not meant only for "show dogs", but to determine a structural type which supposedly will allow the animal to continue to do the types of work it was originally intended to do, and hopefully, continue to be sound in body and mind while they do it.
It is only my opinion that if someone is breeding dogs, they should be looking for more than just how hard they can bite, or even how Pretty they are. See the animal as a whole package.
About 25 years ago, I might have disagreed with you. But I have seen enough to know that you are right. I still don't select on looks as a first criterium, but if one awesome working dog has traits that would not at all match the standard, I would try to find a partner that has the ability to correct it. My more correctly shaped dogs hold up beyond amazingly. There is a link between form and function, I have no doubt.
leih merigian wrote:so, apparently, there are "silver factored" chocolates... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Wow. I had not seen that yet. And how on earth did they sneak that past AKC? (uh...duh...they are a registry and know nothing about genetics. Never mind. Rethorical question)
Lilac. ;) Stir chocolate into blue, and voila. Amazing how they manage to introduce a color into a closed genepool, that was not present in the genepool beforehand. (ahem)
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Re: Blues

Post by kchristy » Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:31 pm

I have to say, in my own opinion, silver does not do the lab well. I have also heard people talk of "polar bear" lab that is almost white.

I like the blue in the ds, I think that, like stated above, if the dog has the qualities that you are looking for it doesnt matter the color,I cant believe that someone would kill a pup for the color. What is scary is the idea of people breeding just for the blue. I have this major fear of people finding out about the ds and over breeding them for everything.... I know that I was lucky to get Merlin and they are great dogs, but I also know that they are a handful, if not given to someone who is ready for what they get. Merlin amazes me everyday, with how fast he learns and how he wants to please, but I also know that he was hard to get there, due to how he was taken care of as a small puppy. I see all these DS on NADSR and I get so sadden to see them, specially the ones that say they were given away because an owner couldn't handle them. I wish I could take them all in....anyway I could go on forever..... poor cute and cuddly little monsters!
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Tell us about yourself: I am in New York State. Got my first DS about 14 years ago (more or less as a rescue- lost her in Nov.). After years of GSD's, and a few dogs of other breeds (Rotti/Beauceron/Ger. Shorthaired Pointer/ Yorkie and my current Jack Russell) I now have another DS, 4mo female, no name yet, tho I have a few in mind.
Also have a horse-old quarter horse mare-32.
Can't wait for all the snow to get gone! Spring is coming too slow this year!
Location: Corinth, New York

Re: Blues

Post by alspyce » Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:57 pm

vneerland wrote:As for white chests. It happens in Malinois and DS too, thoug of course a white patch does not diminish the workability, but once you start to accept it as normal, it is often there to stay. There have been a few prominent Malinois sires, who passed on that long white stripe quite prominently. (Elgos du chemin des plaines) and whenever I see it on a DS, I look for the head shape and think "Elgos in the woodpile" :duh:
Elgos:
Elgos du chemin des Plaines.jpg
Elgos du chemin des Plaines.jpg (33.04 KiB) Viewed 3185 times
Scroll about 1/2 way down this page---interesting to also see white (with ticking??) in the pastern of this dog.
http://www.heimdallrk9.com/dutchshepherddogpuppies.html
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Marjolein
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Re: Blues

Post by Marjolein » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:11 pm

that head shape also is very familiar... ;) :D
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Re: Blues

Post by vneerland » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:07 pm

alspyce wrote:Scroll about 1/2 way down this page---interesting to also see white (with ticking??) in the pastern of this dog.
http://www.heimdallrk9.com/dutchshepherddogpuppies.html
Wow! I first thought it was a bandage, but you may be right. Looks like ticking on there too. I had never seen anything like it. Totally unwanted marking but still, very very cool trick of nature. 8-) I see the dam had quite a bit of white, but it has gone even wild(er) in this female. Too cool, thanks for showing her. :yeah:
ImageJudith Van Neerland Dutch Shepherds Image

BryanKSchraven
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Re: Blues

Post by BryanKSchraven » Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:52 pm

I have a entirely blue Dutch Shepherd puppy. He is 9 weeks today. He has a patch of very thin hair atop his head as well as thinning hair around his eyes And backs of his ears. We're getting our second round of vaccinations today and will see the veterinarian this week to rule out mange. This thread really caught my attention and now I wonder if its a defect due to the blue. I've had him since he was 6 weeks old and it had already started to manifest. Pictures from birth to maybe 5 weeks didnt show it. I appreciate the thread and any advice or further knowledge would be great. Thank You.
BryanKSchraven

Patrick
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Re: Blues

Post by Patrick » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:02 am

The pup I picked up today is blue. The breeder gave me a little demo of the pup and he was biting and holding on for dear life as the rag he was biting was lifted up in the air. I was definitely impressed.

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