Dutch Shepherd Forum

Hang in there Denise. I have a few stored online already. I can look later.

Here is one of Vada's littermates (A litter) who is blue:


And another:


Asheley use to have a cute pic up on her website of the girls in a basket so you could see the blues and the other ones. I'm not sure if she got any blues out of the repeat breeding (the B litter).

Here is another blue who is not related:


For some reason the 2nd pic won't link so I downloaded and uploaded it.

Cute...I love the one of the pup chasing the large sheep

>>>And then there are the Yorkies who are born black & tan and change (hopefully) into that beautiful gunmetal blue later. (Just to stir the blue pot a little more.<<<

Hi all! I've been busy for the past few days so I'm just catching up. Ok, stirring that pot!!! The "blue" in Yorkies is not the "blue" of the dd dilute. The biggest problem in canine and feline color genetics is that every breed has its own specific name for colors, and so far there is no standardization. Our "lavender" dogs and cats are a perfect example--the color is called pearl, blue fawn, lilac, lavender, and a half dozen other names--all for the same ddbb.

The opposite problem is the name "blue;" it's used for danged near *everything.* A blue Pit or DS or Doberman is the dd dilute or "maltese." It is the "born blue" gene or MLPH. The blue Aussie is a blue merle, which is a black and white mix of hair in the merled areas, solely the result of the merle gene. Pups are born merle, though I am under the impression that the merle areas are a bit lighter than the adult coat will be. The blue of a Blue Heeler (Australian Cattle Dog) or a "blue Belton" spaniel or setter is the ticking or roaning gene, most probably the same factor that creates the Dalmatian's spots (though it is thought the Dalmation has an additional recessive "nonflecking" gene that contributes to the distinct black on white spots.) ACD's are always born white in the blue areas, just like Dalmatians--if the "flecking" modifier proves true, they would carry the dominant "flecking" gene. Ticking and roaning used to be thought separate--R and T--now they are both usually treated as T and on the same locus. The blue of a Kerry Blue Terrier is G the progressive greying gene--they are born black and often the face stays black with maturity, sort of like a blue roan horse (but not the same gene as the canine "roan.") Confused yet?

OK, anyone with other dog breeds, have I left out anything?

A Yorkie is a genetic black and tan (a/t) with the progressive graying (G) factor. The blue areas are born black and turn blue as the puppy matures--which can take three to four years to change completely.

My brain hurts...aren't you glad Dutch Shepherds are easy?

Ellisa

@Elllisa. Besides pit bulls, what other breeds would sport chocolate brindles?

Gee, Judith, as you know, I had to think about this one. I have a picture of a chocolate brindle Finnish dog (Buuhund) somewhere. I should ask Liisa Saarakontu, who knows more about canine color genetics than just about anyone but Sheila Scmutz. I know Poms come in chocolate brindle. Lavender brindle, too <<g>>. They come in just about everything. Sighthounds have brindle but chocolate is really rare. I had to do a Google search after that to find some non-bully non-mastiff type Chindles <<g>>. That search turned up a whippet, some Chihuahuas, and a Tibetan something--maybe a Shih Tsu. My dial-up is slow, so after wading through the first few thousand pit bull puppy pictures, I took a look at Shiela Schmutz's color genetics site and got a list of breeds that carry bb that they can test. Of the breeds listed, I saw Shar pei--do they come in brindle? And Poodles? if so, you could get a "chindle" (sorry I just made that up.) IG was the only other breed listed that I know comes in brindle, too. So, apparently, other than the folks who breed for "off" colors, especially in the toy and designer markets, (exotic, rare, one of a kind Purple Pomiepoos! ) I think chocolate brindles may not be all that common outside of bully circles.

Ellisa

choc brindles

Duh, I forgot about Teddy Roosevelts. They are short-legged Rat Terriers. Brindle is not an accepted color in Rats but it is in Teddys. I actually have a friend who is breeding a bb dog to a female who carries bb but is brindle--she'll most likely get a chindle puppy.

Ellisa

Thanks all for the info. What I was hoping for and more! Great to have access to info from those of you who know. Thanks for sharing. I did google up some photos and with those posted here, I am even more intrigued. Very interesting info.

For those who wanted to see pics, the Van Leeuwens just had a litter with blues in it:



There are more pics of the pups on their FB page.

Here's a blue adult out of their kennel:


Same dog:

Dead on! This would be the litter I made reference to early on in this thread. Hence my inquiry.

I know this is an old thread, but I saw it while looking through the forum and figured I'd post pics of my goofball. These are pics at various ages.

Ammo:














I've not noticed any skin/coat issues in him, or any other differences. He wasn't an intended blue, and was the only blue in the litter. Other than being a little bit goofier, he's no different than the rest. I need to get some updated pics of him, he's really filled out in the chest in the past couple months.

Megan Bays
http://www.kolemountainkennels.com

what do you mean he wasn't an intended blue? Do breeders breed for blue?

He is absolutely gorgeous!!! And the puppy pics........... im dying of cuteness! Not sure if the goofiness is because of the blue, Sadie is super goofy too.

As with anything rare I'm sure there are some breeders out there doing it for the novelty. Just wanting to specify that I wasn't . I knew the mother was a carrier of blue and that the mother also could. So he just a pleasant surprise.

He is a very striking looking dog.


Megan Bays
www.kolemountainkennels.com

Well, Megan, I'm glad you pulled this thread back up, as it made me reread it all again, and maybe one of these fine days, this kind of stuff will actually sink in

Your blue guy was a very cute pup, and grows handsomer over time. I'll be eager to see something current on him, when you have it.

Gotcha!

GSDNanny wrote:Judith, if you would be so kind to explain more on the genetics of the Blues, I would be so appreciative. Ive seen of late where the blues are becoming a fad thus being bred purposely so I am just wondering about the dilution, etc. The only other Blues I have come across were in Dobermans and GSDs and they were a genetic mess, lots of health issues, ie skin, diet, immune system, etc. Can you enlighten me more on the 'blue' DS, dear?

Remember when Blue was considered "a lethal gene" in the GSD's? ( breeders killed them/or they died of other problems) I have some reservations about it becoming rampant in the DS population also. Fads are never good for any breed and my opinion of folks who breed only for color (or only for any other factor) is not very high. Often these pups are sold with a higher price and called "rare", even tho they may be very bad in temperment/conformation/health.

Thats interesting. Why would a Blue have more problems? Is the color gene mutated? If so could that mean other mutated cells?

alspyce wrote:Often these pups are sold with a higher price and called "rare", even tho they may be very bad in temperment/conformation/health.

That's interesting. The absolutely most stunning GSD I've ever seen was a red sable. And, I mean a very deep red. It was just gorgeous.

I commented on it to a mentor at the time, who knows more about GSDs than I can ever hope to forget, and she said that "yes, they're gorgeous, but they tend to be a mess, temperament wise."

There must be something about those less common coat colors...

alspyce wrote:Remember when Blue was considered "a lethal gene" in the GSD's? ( breeders killed them/or they died of other problems) I have some reservations about it becoming rampant in the DS population also. Fads are never good for any breed and my opinion of folks who breed only for color (or only for any other factor) is not very high. Often these pups are sold with a higher price and called "rare", even tho they may be very bad in temperment/conformation/health.

If people are stupid enough to kill blue GSD's because the gene is supposedly lethal, then I guess they were right...it became a lethal gene when they bucketed the pups. It has happened quite a bit with the fawn and blue FCI DS's too. I have no doubt at all that a good number of 'unwanted' recessives, regardless of what breed they occur in, end up as evidence removed, if you catch my drift. Then once a bloodline goes on to other breeders, and produces the recessive oops color, the original breeder is still 'busted', but most people don't think that way. It is so easy to blame the sire for the 'problem' when lots of colors require two copies, so involvement of both parents.
I doubt the color breeders would have much motivation to mass produce blue DS's. The breed standard does not disallow it, but the eyes of a blue are always light and should, according to the breed standard, be dark. The blue brindles will not win a show when pitted against a black brindle. For work, color does not matter. So the buyers in that group will be less likely to have an outspoken preference for blue. I do not doubt that there are breeders that price a blue brindle higher but I am naive enough to assume that it will not become a great problem (color breeders) due to the current nature of the DS clientele.

leih merigian wrote:That's interesting. The absolutely most stunning GSD I've ever seen was a red sable. And, I mean a very deep red. It was just gorgeous.
I commented on it to a mentor at the time, who knows more about GSDs than I can ever hope to forget, and she said that "yes, they're gorgeous, but they tend to be a mess, temperament wise."
There must be something about those less common coat colors...

I soooooo doubt that a red(er) sable would be different from a regular sable. It is the same locus at work (the A locus) and to date, it is unknown what causes the color to be richer or paler. But no more than a deep red malinois is different in temperament from a pale malinois, will a red sable GSD be different from a pale (regular) sable, since it is the same locus, but with, maybe a modifier. Temperament and color links are expected, though, but more on base of active or inactive loci. We even have stereotypes in people (blondes, redheads, etc) but not enough studies to substantiate many of those claims.

A friend of mine who is in dog rescue (she has always about 10 dogs on her property - mostly Bull Mastiffs) said that all brindle dogs are a pain in the a.. doesn't matter what breed, boxer, pit, greyhound, mastoff, ... That explaind a lot, doesn't it