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Serious Question

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Christie M
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Serious Question

Post by Christie M » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:57 am

This is not to insult anyone - so PLEASE don't take it that way.

But I really do want to know, what do we call a fawn dog out of two brindles. I have asked it before, but I don't think there was a definitive answer....and there may not be one.

The breed standard lists brindle. But it also lists sizes, and certainly because a dog is smaller or larger than the breed standard doesn't make it not a Dutch. I know many working dog people would just call it a malinois. What do they call it in Europe if it creeps up in FCI lines (does that happen?)? How is the registration handled?

I am well aware that most of the dogs in this country are KNPV lines and are not pure brindle. I know that mal and DS are freely crossed back and forth.

I was just looking at a breeding post that listed a brindle DS bred to a fawn DS. So that got me to thinking. Can there be a fawn DS?
Christie Meyer
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Marjolein
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Re: Serious Question

Post by Marjolein » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:24 pm

In Holland we have had some FCI litters with yellow in it , mainly in longhaired DS. These dogs are called "yellows" (in Dutch "gele") by everyone, or "yellow DS". Officially they are listed as "DS- wrong colour". This means they cannot be used for breeding or shows.
There have been few people who suggested to use the yellows anyway, because any blood is welcome in such a small genepool, and also, if you use a pure brindled (kbr/kbr) mate on this yellow dog, you will have 100% brindled dogs (all kbr/ky) Only by combining kbr/ky x kbr/ky could get you yellows again, and also in the use of a yellow dog ofcourse. I personally would be in favour of using yellows if they have great charachter, we need all the genes we can get.

In KNPV however, it is different. Because these are all mixes the dog is simply called what it looks like, accompanied by an "x" for "mix" by most, some leave the "x" out, to long a word, to them it is not important anyway.
So in a mix-breed litter the yellows will be called x-Mali's or in case of longer hair "x-Tervuren". Black dogs are called black x-mali's, anything brindled a x-DS.

Also, in "pure-bred" FCI lines there still are kbr/ky dogs, so it is definately not impossible to get yellows in those lines. Years ago certain breeders would just hide or kill yeloow and blue pups, not sure what happens to them now, I hope everyone feels free to just talk about it, some seem ashamed if it happens, which is nonsense ofcourse. Adding to that, some "pure-bred" lines are just an illusion, or shall we say one big lie... So getting yellows and blue's in there would be more likely to expect because of a higher percentage of KNPV lines in them. This also adds to rthe "shame" feeling by those who get yellows, they feel everyone thinks they also cheated, which does not HAVE to be the case at all, it can be hidden for years since it's recessive genes ;)
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Dutchringgirl
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Re: Serious Question

Post by Dutchringgirl » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:38 pm

My Ring Trainer had a fawn DS. I was told that a fawn can be reg as DS or Mal.
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vneerland
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Re: Serious Question

Post by vneerland » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:42 pm

There is definately such a thing as two brindles having fawn pups. In the FCI long haired population, it happens relatively more often than in the FCI short or rough hair, but it happens in all three groups. Marjolein explained it well. Recessive genes, that need another dogs carrying a recessive, in order for it to display.
The reason why it happened more in the LH, is because that is a much smaller group, so two recessives have more chance to 'meet'. Influx of KNPV dogs in FCI is great, much of it on the sly, some of it openly and honestly. So blue brindles and fawns happen in both KNPV and FCI lines. Like Marjolein says; Fawn is just a wrong color for the breed. But can a good dog have a wrong color? If the future owner knows the color does not give access to conformation events, but may well make a great companion and -depending on lineage- even a good working dog, then do we need to toss them with the bathwater? :? Or just call them mis marked DS's?
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CaroleBoaz
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Tell us about yourself: I am currently the Secretary and Treasurer of the Dutch Shepherd Club of North America. We are the national breed club for Dutch Shepherds, and have the support of the Nederlandse Herdershonden Club in our endeavours to record the Dutch Shepherd breed in the United States and Canada through the American Kennel Club. dscna.com Join us on Facebook.
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Re: Serious Question

Post by CaroleBoaz » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:11 pm

Brenda put a photo of a yellow long-hair on her website. It's the last photo. I think it's very pretty. ;)


http://dscna.blogspot.com/p/coat-colors.html

leih merigian
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Re: Serious Question

Post by leih merigian » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:57 am

To me, that blond long hair looks kind of like a golden bred to a coyote, something along those lines :mrgreen:
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CaroleBoaz
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Tell us about yourself: I am currently the Secretary and Treasurer of the Dutch Shepherd Club of North America. We are the national breed club for Dutch Shepherds, and have the support of the Nederlandse Herdershonden Club in our endeavours to record the Dutch Shepherd breed in the United States and Canada through the American Kennel Club. dscna.com Join us on Facebook.
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Re: Serious Question

Post by CaroleBoaz » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:07 am

leih merigian wrote:To me, that blond long hair looks kind of like a golden bred to a coyote, something along those lines :mrgreen:
:lol: :pint:

kchristy
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Re: Serious Question

Post by kchristy » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:20 pm

I know at one point someone posted pictures of a fawn DS on here, I can't find the topic now though. I remember the dog was very beautiful.
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Marjolein
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Re: Serious Question

Post by Marjolein » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:19 pm

for everyone interested in the fawn dog and it's genes :D
http://dutch-shepherd.blogspot.com/
Thanx again to Lou ;)
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kchristy
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Tell us about yourself: My name is Katrina, I have 1 dutch shepherd name Merlin. He is a handful and keeps things in our house very interesting and fun :)
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Re: Serious Question

Post by kchristy » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:20 pm

Very beautiful, no matter what color :) Makes me want to fill my house full of the little beasts! :ds:
Katrina, Soba, & Merlin

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Re: Serious Question

Post by GSDNanny » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:22 pm

Oops, missed this thread somehow before. The blonde, IMHO, looks nothing remotely like a DS - structure, head,...just sayin'. Those LH's are easy on the eyes though. :wtg:

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Re: Serious Question

Post by Dark Side » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:38 am

Oh I didn't know Louise's blog existed in english as well (for those interested, there is also a french version! ;) ). VERY interesting ! I totally agree yellow DS must be considered as DS- wrong colour since it isn't a colour authorized by the standard but these dogs are still dutch shepherds.

The DNA test is a great tool for breeders who, if they wish, can make sure they do not have yellow puppies by marrying a KBR/KBR dog to a KBR/KY.

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