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Serious Question
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Please post at your own risk. Know that this is not a true conformation show, and that the comments made are based on pictures only and might not be a good reflection of what could be seen in real life. Pictures need to be owned by the poster or used with verifiable permission of the owner. The dog in the submitted picture should be owned OR bred by the poster, OR you should be able to show that you have explict permission from the dogs owner. You may be asked for verification . The admin reserves the right to remove posts when permission cannot be verified. No rights can be derived from these posts.
- Christie M
- Global Moderator
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- Tell us about yourself: Love my striped beasts.
Serious Question
This is not to insult anyone - so PLEASE don't take it that way.
But I really do want to know, what do we call a fawn dog out of two brindles. I have asked it before, but I don't think there was a definitive answer....and there may not be one.
The breed standard lists brindle. But it also lists sizes, and certainly because a dog is smaller or larger than the breed standard doesn't make it not a Dutch. I know many working dog people would just call it a malinois. What do they call it in Europe if it creeps up in FCI lines (does that happen?)? How is the registration handled?
I am well aware that most of the dogs in this country are KNPV lines and are not pure brindle. I know that mal and DS are freely crossed back and forth.
I was just looking at a breeding post that listed a brindle DS bred to a fawn DS. So that got me to thinking. Can there be a fawn DS?
But I really do want to know, what do we call a fawn dog out of two brindles. I have asked it before, but I don't think there was a definitive answer....and there may not be one.
The breed standard lists brindle. But it also lists sizes, and certainly because a dog is smaller or larger than the breed standard doesn't make it not a Dutch. I know many working dog people would just call it a malinois. What do they call it in Europe if it creeps up in FCI lines (does that happen?)? How is the registration handled?
I am well aware that most of the dogs in this country are KNPV lines and are not pure brindle. I know that mal and DS are freely crossed back and forth.
I was just looking at a breeding post that listed a brindle DS bred to a fawn DS. So that got me to thinking. Can there be a fawn DS?
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
- Marjolein
- Working Dog
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- Tell us about yourself: I'm a Dutchie myself ;-) but live in Germany with Johan and my two DS's Cobber-Dingo and Knivil (Dingo and Ivil to friends...)
- Location: Warbeyen, Germany
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Re: Serious Question
In Holland we have had some FCI litters with yellow in it , mainly in longhaired DS. These dogs are called "yellows" (in Dutch "gele") by everyone, or "yellow DS". Officially they are listed as "DS- wrong colour". This means they cannot be used for breeding or shows.
There have been few people who suggested to use the yellows anyway, because any blood is welcome in such a small genepool, and also, if you use a pure brindled (kbr/kbr) mate on this yellow dog, you will have 100% brindled dogs (all kbr/ky) Only by combining kbr/ky x kbr/ky could get you yellows again, and also in the use of a yellow dog ofcourse. I personally would be in favour of using yellows if they have great charachter, we need all the genes we can get.
In KNPV however, it is different. Because these are all mixes the dog is simply called what it looks like, accompanied by an "x" for "mix" by most, some leave the "x" out, to long a word, to them it is not important anyway.
So in a mix-breed litter the yellows will be called x-Mali's or in case of longer hair "x-Tervuren". Black dogs are called black x-mali's, anything brindled a x-DS.
Also, in "pure-bred" FCI lines there still are kbr/ky dogs, so it is definately not impossible to get yellows in those lines. Years ago certain breeders would just hide or kill yeloow and blue pups, not sure what happens to them now, I hope everyone feels free to just talk about it, some seem ashamed if it happens, which is nonsense ofcourse. Adding to that, some "pure-bred" lines are just an illusion, or shall we say one big lie... So getting yellows and blue's in there would be more likely to expect because of a higher percentage of KNPV lines in them. This also adds to rthe "shame" feeling by those who get yellows, they feel everyone thinks they also cheated, which does not HAVE to be the case at all, it can be hidden for years since it's recessive genes
There have been few people who suggested to use the yellows anyway, because any blood is welcome in such a small genepool, and also, if you use a pure brindled (kbr/kbr) mate on this yellow dog, you will have 100% brindled dogs (all kbr/ky) Only by combining kbr/ky x kbr/ky could get you yellows again, and also in the use of a yellow dog ofcourse. I personally would be in favour of using yellows if they have great charachter, we need all the genes we can get.
In KNPV however, it is different. Because these are all mixes the dog is simply called what it looks like, accompanied by an "x" for "mix" by most, some leave the "x" out, to long a word, to them it is not important anyway.
So in a mix-breed litter the yellows will be called x-Mali's or in case of longer hair "x-Tervuren". Black dogs are called black x-mali's, anything brindled a x-DS.
Also, in "pure-bred" FCI lines there still are kbr/ky dogs, so it is definately not impossible to get yellows in those lines. Years ago certain breeders would just hide or kill yeloow and blue pups, not sure what happens to them now, I hope everyone feels free to just talk about it, some seem ashamed if it happens, which is nonsense ofcourse. Adding to that, some "pure-bred" lines are just an illusion, or shall we say one big lie... So getting yellows and blue's in there would be more likely to expect because of a higher percentage of KNPV lines in them. This also adds to rthe "shame" feeling by those who get yellows, they feel everyone thinks they also cheated, which does not HAVE to be the case at all, it can be hidden for years since it's recessive genes
- Dutchringgirl
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- Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
- Location: Ct, USA
Re: Serious Question
My Ring Trainer had a fawn DS. I was told that a fawn can be reg as DS or Mal.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
- vneerland
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Re: Serious Question
There is definately such a thing as two brindles having fawn pups. In the FCI long haired population, it happens relatively more often than in the FCI short or rough hair, but it happens in all three groups. Marjolein explained it well. Recessive genes, that need another dogs carrying a recessive, in order for it to display.
The reason why it happened more in the LH, is because that is a much smaller group, so two recessives have more chance to 'meet'. Influx of KNPV dogs in FCI is great, much of it on the sly, some of it openly and honestly. So blue brindles and fawns happen in both KNPV and FCI lines. Like Marjolein says; Fawn is just a wrong color for the breed. But can a good dog have a wrong color? If the future owner knows the color does not give access to conformation events, but may well make a great companion and -depending on lineage- even a good working dog, then do we need to toss them with the bathwater? Or just call them mis marked DS's?
The reason why it happened more in the LH, is because that is a much smaller group, so two recessives have more chance to 'meet'. Influx of KNPV dogs in FCI is great, much of it on the sly, some of it openly and honestly. So blue brindles and fawns happen in both KNPV and FCI lines. Like Marjolein says; Fawn is just a wrong color for the breed. But can a good dog have a wrong color? If the future owner knows the color does not give access to conformation events, but may well make a great companion and -depending on lineage- even a good working dog, then do we need to toss them with the bathwater? Or just call them mis marked DS's?
Judith Van Neerland Dutch Shepherds
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- Tell us about yourself: I am currently the Secretary and Treasurer of the Dutch Shepherd Club of North America. We are the national breed club for Dutch Shepherds, and have the support of the Nederlandse Herdershonden Club in our endeavours to record the Dutch Shepherd breed in the United States and Canada through the American Kennel Club. dscna.com Join us on Facebook.
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Re: Serious Question
Brenda put a photo of a yellow long-hair on her website. It's the last photo. I think it's very pretty.
http://dscna.blogspot.com/p/coat-colors.html
http://dscna.blogspot.com/p/coat-colors.html
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- Working Dog
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- Tell us about yourself: Had a GSD, am getting a DS puppy in a few weeks. Compete in agility, obedience, and cross train in tons of stuff. Found out about this site from the DS Rescue yahoo list.
Re: Serious Question
To me, that blond long hair looks kind of like a golden bred to a coyote, something along those lines
leih merigian
Vrijheid's H'Geyser
Zodiac vom Younghaus (over the bridge)
Central VA (near Charlottesville)
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...
Vrijheid's H'Geyser
Zodiac vom Younghaus (over the bridge)
Central VA (near Charlottesville)
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...
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- Training Dog
- Posts: 592
- Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:52 am
- Tell us about yourself: I am currently the Secretary and Treasurer of the Dutch Shepherd Club of North America. We are the national breed club for Dutch Shepherds, and have the support of the Nederlandse Herdershonden Club in our endeavours to record the Dutch Shepherd breed in the United States and Canada through the American Kennel Club. dscna.com Join us on Facebook.
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Re: Serious Question
leih merigian wrote:To me, that blond long hair looks kind of like a golden bred to a coyote, something along those lines
- kchristy
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- Tell us about yourself: My name is Katrina, I have 1 dutch shepherd name Merlin. He is a handful and keeps things in our house very interesting and fun :)
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Re: Serious Question
I know at one point someone posted pictures of a fawn DS on here, I can't find the topic now though. I remember the dog was very beautiful.
Katrina, Soba, & Merlin
- Marjolein
- Working Dog
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- Tell us about yourself: I'm a Dutchie myself ;-) but live in Germany with Johan and my two DS's Cobber-Dingo and Knivil (Dingo and Ivil to friends...)
- Location: Warbeyen, Germany
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Re: Serious Question
for everyone interested in the fawn dog and it's genes
http://dutch-shepherd.blogspot.com/
Thanx again to Lou
http://dutch-shepherd.blogspot.com/
Thanx again to Lou
- kchristy
- Training Dog
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- Tell us about yourself: My name is Katrina, I have 1 dutch shepherd name Merlin. He is a handful and keeps things in our house very interesting and fun :)
- Location: McCurtain, Ok
Re: Serious Question
Very beautiful, no matter what color Makes me want to fill my house full of the little beasts!
Katrina, Soba, & Merlin
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Re: Serious Question
Oops, missed this thread somehow before. The blonde, IMHO, looks nothing remotely like a DS - structure, head,...just sayin'. Those LH's are easy on the eyes though.
Denise Gatlin & Zip, Shooter & the K9 crew
Livin' in the deep south - Louisiana
- Dark Side
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- Tell us about yourself: In love with Dutch Shepherds for almost 20 years, I now breed them with love and passion.
Settled in the south east of France, near the Italian border, I practice Mondioring with my dogs and also dog shows. Looking forward to sharing my passion with you all !!
http://www.bergerhollandais.fr/ - Location: South east of France
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Re: Serious Question
Oh I didn't know Louise's blog existed in english as well (for those interested, there is also a french version! ). VERY interesting ! I totally agree yellow DS must be considered as DS- wrong colour since it isn't a colour authorized by the standard but these dogs are still dutch shepherds.
The DNA test is a great tool for breeders who, if they wish, can make sure they do not have yellow puppies by marrying a KBR/KBR dog to a KBR/KY.
The DNA test is a great tool for breeders who, if they wish, can make sure they do not have yellow puppies by marrying a KBR/KBR dog to a KBR/KY.