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Boaz1
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Tell us about yourself: I am a dog groomer with my own shop. In July I got my first Dutch Shepherd and am very impressed with him.

Re: DNA Test

Post by Boaz1 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:59 pm

I appreciate all the feedback. I will try to post a photo here. In person there is nothing splotchy about his brindle. Definite stripes throughout the coat so it may be the lighting on the site. Has anyone tried other DNA kits? Almost want to try one to see if they come out the same.

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centrop67
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Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: DNA Test

Post by centrop67 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:43 pm

Boaz1 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:59 pm
In person there is nothing splotchy about his brindle. Definite stripes throughout the coat so it may be the lighting on the site.
I was looking on my cell phone, and you're right -> Stripey.

My bad :eew:
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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centrop67
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Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: DNA Test

Post by centrop67 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:53 pm

Here's quick breakdown of what I can find on the Dog DNA Testing Services:
TestDS?CommentCostWebLink
Wisdom 3.0 & 4.0 Yes Used/Sold by multiple Services $84.99 Link
Viaguard ??? All AKC, UKC and CKC breeds (DS???) $49.00 Link
Embark No $199.99 Link
Intl. Biosciences: DNA My Dog No "DNA My Dog" is used/sold by multiple sevices $79.00 Link

There's an interesting and informative article at TheBark.com that digs into history and explanation of canine DNA testing.
https://thebark.com/content/can-dna-decipher-mix wrote:The genes—and there may be hundreds—that work together to make a Corgi look like a short-legged Shepherd may be completely different than those responsible for a Basset Hound’s low-slung carriage. With some exceptions, scientists cannot yet connect genetic dots to specific traits. But they have discovered something tangible that measures some of the differences between breeds: genetic patterns of organization displayed on a scatter graph that answer the question, “What’s the same and what’s different?”
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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centrop67
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Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: DNA Test

Post by centrop67 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:58 pm

I found an interesting statistic during yesterday's research that states that eye identification of a breed is 25% (1 in 4) accurate.

Unfortunately, there was no reference to the source of the stat, so it could made up.

It sounds good, but so does: 99.9% of all Dutch Shepherds are derpy. The other .1% are just goof balls. :lol:
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Boaz1
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Tell us about yourself: I am a dog groomer with my own shop. In July I got my first Dutch Shepherd and am very impressed with him.

Re: DNA Test

Post by Boaz1 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:47 pm

I see other DNA sites listed don't have Dutchies and I know Wisdom just recently added them so I would say for the Dutch Shepherd owner the DNA test is pretty much meaningless. You may find out if there is any Dutch Shepherd in your pup and you may also go away thinking your dog is not Dutchie when it is. Was on a site yesterday about Dutch and Mal crosses and Dutch and GS crosses. According that author there are very few absolutel pure Dutch Shepherds in the US (or anywhere) they somehow become magically pure when they hit our shores.


The reason for the lack of purity is that other breeds, primarily Mal were in 1900's (when they lost there flock protector and herding job and were becoming primarily police dogs,) introduced to develop a larger dog as well as other police dog traits. Then later they worked to stabilize the brindle. So other breeds will always show up and the percentages in the wisdom panel, at least with the Dutch I think are meaningless.

And it's ok if you thought Boaz was deploying and I accept your apology.

Boaz1
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Tell us about yourself: I am a dog groomer with my own shop. In July I got my first Dutch Shepherd and am very impressed with him.

Re: DNA Test

Post by Boaz1 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:49 pm

Bad auto correct. Should be splotchy. Not deploying, where did that even come from!!

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brindledog
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Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Re: DNA Test

Post by brindledog » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:39 am

I came back on this forum just to see how many people have actually tried the Wisdom panel. Not to be rude, but I would love to see the results for dogs of some of the self-proclaimed and (sometimes snobby) experts on here. I suspect that many of the "pure bred" DS will come back as Malinois/GSD, and other breeds. And when they do, it will elicit disbelief and blaming of the test.

I have considered getting it done on my girl, but at this point not sure it matters. I would not be surprised if she comes back as GSD (her dad) and malinois mixed with something else (mom). I am interested in learning about any genetic propensities for disease, as she has had SO many inexplicable health issues that it would be helpful to know if there is some rare issue the vets could look for. At this point, they figure she has some as of yet indeterminate auto-immune disorder.

Can Wisdom panel help with figuring out genetic illnesses?

Lisa G.

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centrop67
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Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: DNA Test

Post by centrop67 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:28 pm

The Wisdom Panel 3.0 Tests only for the following:

* Results for the drug-sensitivity genetic mutation, MDR1

The Wisdom Panel 4.0 Tests for the following:

* Results for the drug-sensitivity genetic mutation, MDR1
* Results for Exercise-induced Collapse (EIC) screening

If you want more genetic disease testing, you need to use their Wisdom Health Panel:

* Results for 140+ disease-causing genetic mutations including disease descriptions and indication of level of severity

The Health panel is close to twice the cost, but it includes everything in the 4.0 panel (breed id, etc.).

Their product comparison chart can be found here: https://www.wisdompanel.com/about_wp/pr ... omparison/
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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centrop67
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:42 pm
Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: DNA Test

Post by centrop67 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:30 pm

I wanted to add that I wish I had opted for the Health Panel now.

The breed Id was on my mind when I went down this path as both Leela and Radar are rescues.
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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brindledog
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Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:04 am
Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Re: DNA Test

Post by brindledog » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:56 am

Thanks for that info. I'm going to talk to her vet and see if she thinks it's worth it. Undoubtedly cheaper than the head CT scan she got a few months ago.

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centrop67
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:42 pm
Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: DNA Test

Post by centrop67 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:20 pm

I extended an invitation to the team at Wisdom Panel to join the site and post or respond to the discussion.

Let's see what happens...
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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centrop67
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:42 pm
Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: DNA Test (Wisdom Panel Team Statement)

Post by centrop67 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:37 pm

The folks at Wisdom Panel responded to my request for a statement:

Thank you for your interest in Wisdom Panel Dog Breed Identification testing. As you are aware we recently added the Dutch Shepherd to our database; this came after years of working with Dutch Shepherd breeders in the US and Europe to collect samples of varying family lines; additionally we have been able to differentiate subsets for shorthaired, longhaired, and rough coated.

While many people think that they are excellent at identifying dog breeds, the truth is that studies have shown that even people that work with dogs every day are only accurate at guessing a mixed breed dog’s ancestry about 25% of the time while the Wisdom Panel Breed Identification Test is over 92% accurate at determining breed ancestry.

A dog’s physical traits are a complex combination of dominant and recessive genes inherited from their parents; traits like short coat and brindle pattern are dominant traits occurring in a large number of breeds. While prick ear is a recessive trait, it is not at all uncommon. So this combination of traits may in fact come from Dutch Shepherd ancestors or could be the result of several other breeds coming together to create a dog that mimics the look of a Dutch Shepherd. This is why visual identification of breeds can be so difficult!

Wisdom Health has been conducting research in the field of canine genetics for nearly two decades starting with the initial canine genomics project in 1999. Today our technology powers some of the most comprehensive breed and genetic disease detection products on the market for veterinarians, consumers at home, breeders and shelters.

We look forward to working with the Dutch Shepherd community even more in the future!

I hope that helps! If you need additional assistance please don’t hesitate to contact info@wisdomhealth.com or call 888-K9 PET TEST (1-888-597-3883).

Best regards,
Michelle
Customer Service Manager
Wisdom Health
The World Leader in Canine Genetic Testing
www.wisdompanel.com
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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centrop67
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:42 pm
Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: DNA Test

Post by centrop67 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:41 pm

I've had some time to digest the statement, and I want to share my thoughts.

So, you say there's still a chance...
92% accuracy is quite impressive. Based, on the discussions I've seen, there's a lot of people falling into that 8% area. :lol:

That would include myself, who still believes that Leela has to have some Malinois somewhere in her ancestry.

Which leads to another statistic...
"...people that work with dogs every day are only accurate at guessing a mixed breed dog’s ancestry about 25% of the time.."

This statistic is showing up more and more, with very little source reference. So, I turned to my favorite expert in research, science, and dogs, the Science Dog.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's pretty darn difficult to identify a breed based on visualization alone. I just don't like the thought of something being thrown around as fact without some kind of primary reference.

What does the Science Dog say?
We have learned that breed identification using a dog’s physical appearance, even when conducted by experienced dog experts, is flawed in two distinctive ways. First, experts cannot agree consistently about how to label an individual dog.
...
Second, DNA tests do not consistently confirm breed assignments that were based upon physical appearance.
Source: https://thesciencedog.wordpress.com/cat ... og-breeds/

If you dig into the cited studies and detail of that summary, you find that the "experts" were almost always people at shelters who make breed identifications. That's problematic for me, because they have the primary responsibility of getting their dogs adopted, which can conflict with identifying a breed with a low rate of adopt-ability.

Second the numbers do not add up to a 1 in 4 chance of correctly identifying a breed by visualization. To me that calculation may not even be possible.

My conclusion
We know from experience here on the forum how insistent people can be that there dog is in fact a DS, because it has stripes and pointy ears. Heck, Radar is only 50% DS. I wonder if that would have got me kicked off the forum in its early days?

I joked a little above about thinking Leela has some Mal, but in reality, I am leaning towards believing the Wisdom assessment.

Right now, it's the closest we have to fact considering ALL the possibilities.

For reference, these are the studies cited by the Science Dog:

Voith VL, Trevejo R, Dowling-Guyer S, Chadik C, Marder A, Johnson V, Irizarry K. Comparison of visual and DNA breed identification of dogs and inter-observer reliability. American Journal of Sociological Research 2013; 3:17-29.

Hoffman CL, Harrison N, Wolff L, Westgarty C. Is that dog a Pit Bull? A cross-country comparison of perceptions of shelter works regarding breed identification. Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science 2014; 17:322-339.

Olson KR, Levy JK, Borby B, Crandall MM, Broadhurst JE, Jacks S, Barton RC, Zimmerman MS. Inconsistent identification of pit bull-type dogs by shelter staff. The Veterinary Journal 2015; 206:197-202.

Gunter LM, Barber RT, Wynne CDL. What’s in a name? Effect of breed perceptions & labeling on attractiveness, adoptions & length of stay for pit-bull-type dogs. PLoS ONE 2016; 11:e0146857.doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0146857.
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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cake73
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Tell us about yourself: I live in Metro-West Boston with my husband and our two rescued Dutch Shepherds, Marley and Minnie. He loves to nap. She loves anything involving activity. Our first rescued DS, Kaya, loved to tug. I volunteer for the North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue and am a member of the NADSR BOD.
Contact:

Re: DNA Test (Wisdom Panel Team Statement)

Post by cake73 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:20 pm

centrop67 wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:37 pm
A dog’s physical traits are a complex combination of dominant and recessive genes inherited from their parents; traits like short coat and brindle pattern are dominant traits occurring in a large number of breeds. While prick ear is a recessive trait, it is not at all uncommon. So this combination of traits may in fact come from Dutch Shepherd ancestors or could be the result of several other breeds coming together to create a dog that mimics the look of a Dutch Shepherd. This is why visual identification of breeds can be so difficult!
YES! One thousand times YES!

:dswink"
Cheryl in MA, with rescued DS
Kaya, adopted January 2006 (over the bridge, September 2014)
Marley, adopted February 2008
Minnie, adopted March 2015


North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue
https://www.facebook.com/NADSR.DSRescue

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brindledog
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Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:04 am
Tell us about yourself: I love Shepherds- German, Dutch and Belgian. I recently lost my 16.5 y/o GSD mix and was hoping to find a GSD or DS mix. I totally lucked out in finding Grendel, a DS/GSD mix at 9.5 weeks old. She was filthy and flea-ridden, but still the cutest, craziest thing ever. She's going to live up to her name! First dog I've had that I've actually seen the parents and definitely know what she is!

Re: DNA Test

Post by brindledog » Sat May 12, 2018 9:51 pm

I am still waiting to see Wisdom panel results from owners of papered DS from reputable breeders. In light of the history of the Dutch Shepherd, I think getting results of "100%" DS would be very, very rare. My understanding, which admittedly may be very flawed, is that as late as WWII the DS was mixed with other breeds to keep the DS lineage alive because they'd become so scarce. That means less than a century since the few "full" DS were mixed with other breeds. Since DS is not a common breed, there necessarily has not been tons and tons of litters that would create enough generations to provide numerous dogs with the genetic material to show up as 100% .
And if my research is correct, KNPV dogs from Europe, which are bred for working ability and not looks/conformation, have an intentionally wider gene pool that not only includes Malinois, but from what I hear, can also include Great Dane, GSD, and other breeds that may contribute to strong working capacity. So I'm guessing that many owners of papered DS will be surprised (and likely upset), to get Wisdom Panel results that are not pure. But I would think if someone was all that into having a "purebred" DS, they would have done their research and known all this beforehand. If someone wants a dog for its appearance and lineage and paid alot for an FCI dog, then yeah, the Wisdom Panel results may be painful. if someone was looking for a serious working dog, and they have one that is doing all they want and need the dog to do, and then get Wisdom Panel results that show DS/Mal/ whatever else, then I'd think the owner would find it interesting, nut not get bent out of shape and try and claim the test is faulty.
Although I now have (what I believe) to be a purebred dog (my Malinois), and I can better understand why one might want a purebred dog, i.e. because it has specific traits that make it more likely the dog will be able to perform specific tasks, I don't think the majority of dog owners want a purebred working dog for what it can do- it seems most people see it as a status symbol. That, IMHO, is just dumb.

Lisa

Panchovilla
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Tell us about yourself: Retired software engineer, now volunteer. I have a one year old Dutchie named Burt. He’s training in sports, dock diving, and therapy. He gives me new purpose and I love the rambunctious lil-big guy.

Re: DNA Test

Post by Panchovilla » Mon May 28, 2018 10:12 pm

I sent in the swabs to wisdom and should hear back by mid June. It really doesn’t matter what they report back, he is what he is and we love him. The health related findings are of more value to me. I’ll post the results when they come back.

Meanwhile, do you think he has DS in him?ImageImageImage
Burt-Da-Flurt

Panchovilla
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Tell us about yourself: Retired software engineer, now volunteer. I have a one year old Dutchie named Burt. He’s training in sports, dock diving, and therapy. He gives me new purpose and I love the rambunctious lil-big guy.

Re: DNA Test

Post by Panchovilla » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:37 pm

Results are in...much to my surprise, Burt is NOT a DS. He is 75% Belgian Malinois. Well, I have enjoyed reading through this terrific forum and will now make the adjustment to find a great Mal site.
Image
Burt-Da-Flurt

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centrop67
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Tell us about yourself: Accidental DS rescuer. Human companion to Radar and Leela. Owner of the site, looking to make this the top site for information and discussion on Dutch Shepherds.
Location: Cutler Bay, FL, USA

Re: DNA Test

Post by centrop67 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:44 am

Panchovilla wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:37 pm
Burt is NOT a DS. He is 75% Belgian Malinois.
There's a few of angles to this story...

1. Does this help enforce the research that visual identification is suspect (~25%)?

Probably. I believe most of us thought Burt was a DS.

2. How reliable are the tests?

I think there's still a lot of skeptics out there, but it's certainly plausible for Burt to look like DS due to the high percentage of Malinois mixed with a different brindle breed.

3. Is there a good Mal site?

Please let me know if you find one. I looked a couple of years ago when I thought Leela might be a Mal, but I was unsuccessful.

4. You don't really have to leave us.

Mals and DS's are close relatives and you're certainly welcome to hang with us as well as share stories and photos.
Michael
The pack -> Radar (DS), Leela (Mal?), and Karen (Human) - Cutler Bay, FL USA
RIP: Tequila and Snickers
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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