I've already made up my mind but what do y'all think?

[Karin]

Hey Gingerman.

I don't know where you are located, but why not find a good reputable DS breeder and go visit them for determination?

[LyonsFamily]

So is this website for the working variety too or just pedigrees? I want to share information with other owners with dogs like mine, and there seem to be a number of dogs out there like Ginger, maybe a different category on here is appropriate.

This website is for everyone, even DS mixes or dogs that aren't Dutch Shepherd at all. You're perfectly welcome to stay and share your experiences. I think we have a few GSD and mal owners on here and quite a few people waiting to find their perfect dog.

If you read through old posts, you'll find that most of us have working dogs and prefer to see the dogs staying true to their original purpose and away from strictly conformation breeders. Neither of my dogs are FCI pedigreed dogs. Elli is KNPV bred with malinois within the last 5 generations. Odin is just a stranger off the street that's been identified as a DS by a few breeders and trainers, based on his relation to the breed standard and traits. He was UKC registered with their alternative listing which requires pictures and they ID the breed based on appearance. Riddick I think shares the same dad as Elli, so he's KNPV too. Barbara's Kai and Annie's Amber are both half mal. Sugar, Dinga-Roo, Tyson, and a ton others are mixes with unknown parentage. I know I'm missing quite a few people here, but you get the drift.

We aren't mix breed or working line haters at all. In fact, it's quite the opposite here. We just give our opinions when asked and nobody wants to keep people out of the "club", but rather just share our knowledge with those people asking.

[Flying Dutchman]

Well, this has been an interesting thread to read.

I too, do not see any DS in her. But as said before, why is that an issue? I understand wanting to know what kind of dog she is, but why not do a blood DNA test? We've done that with our mixed breed dogs and the results have been fun and sometimes informative.

I am lucky (and somewhat deranged) to share my life with five Dutch Shepherds. The only similar characteristic I see in Ginger is the brindle color, but so many breeds carry that gene (which is also dominant). Her ears, eyes, head, body shape and expression are not DS. But why does it matter to me whether you call her DS or not?

I see this as a form of false advertising. DS are not dogs for most people and if there are folks out there telling others they have a DS when they don't, then that person may think, "I want one of those!" Then they hopefully do their research and either be scared off or realize what they are getting into and decide if it's a good idea. But many will find one of the growing number of unscrupulous "breeders" who will sell them a cute pup without caring about owner education and proper placement. Then cute pup grows up to be a landshark, the you-know-what hits the fan, and dog winds up in a shelter, rescue or worse.

So, I disagree a bit that it's wise to call Ginger a DS because it's practical for you to identify her with a specific breed. Why not tell people she's a beautiful mixed breed rescue dog and be proud of that?! You did a good thing by rescuing her and that is what should matter.

[Raven]

I see this as a form of false advertising. DS are not dogs for most people and if there are folks out there telling others they have a DS when they don't, then that person may think, "I want one of those!" Then they hopefully do their research and either be scared off or realize what they are getting into and decide if it's a good idea. But many will find one of the growing number of unscrupulous "breeders" who will sell them a cute pup without caring about owner education and proper placement. Then cute pup grows up to be a landshark, the you-know-what hits the fan, and dog winds up in a shelter, rescue or worse.

So, I disagree a bit that it's wise to call Ginger a DS because it's practical for you to identify her with a specific breed. Why not tell people she's a beautiful mixed breed rescue dog and be proud of that?! You did a good thing by rescuing her and that is what should matter.

WHAT DUTCHMAN SAID. DITTO. DITTO. DITTO. DITTO. DITTO.

[Dutchringgirl]

I agree too, that is a huge issue for me. These dogs are NOT your average every day family dog. They have a purpose, now many of us have them as regular dogs and dont work them but look at the problems we do have with them. They are not easy dogs and really do not fit into many regular peoples life styles. If i did not get into Ring Sport and get the training I did, there is no way in hell id want one of these dogs. They are difficult and then may end up thrown back into a shelter because people cannot handle the high drive. While you are going around trying to prove to the world that Ginger is a DS and telling every one you meet she is one, you are increasing the chances of some average Joe doggie owner to go find one, then only to find out that they are no where near what he was looking for in a dog companion and sends it back to the shelter, now one step closer to being un adoptable.

So the next time you tell people she is a DS, think about the repercussions of your actions.

[Asha]

"Why not tell people she's a beautiful mixed breed rescue dog and be proud of that?! You did a good thing by rescuing her and that is what should matter."

I thought my dog was a DS for a months, but as she grew I realized she was not. No biggie man, she's bloody awesome and I'm ecstatic everyday that I found her. I understand the desire to know what she is, believe me it drives me nuts not knowing, but calling her a DS when the people on this forum have spent weeks trying to show you she is not a DS doesn't make sense to me. Having a well behaved rescue mutt that strangers admire will do way more for the "dog community" when you tell them she's a rescue. Passing her off as a DS, as noted above, might lead someone to purchase a DS and get in over their head leaving it up to someone else to rescue the purebred discard. By calling her a mixed breed rescue, people might be inclined to hit up the pound, now that's an accomplishment.

[Stacy_R]

I have stayed out of this thread primarily because Tyson is a mix. However, since the conversation has turned to the fallout of false advertising (ps..i love that term!) and the repercussions of it, I thought I would pipe in. I have a friend who runs a rescue for which I used to foster (used to, because now with 3 dogs, I am at my max capacity since I have no fence). I cannot tell you the number of calls she gets from people and shelters with the EXACT situation as Dutchman described...this problem isn't breed specific. To be honest, we ended up keeping Tyson (BEST FOSTER FAILURE EVER!!!!!!) because my husband and I knew that the several people who were interested in him would end up returning him. And this was BEFORE we knew he was more than likely a DS mix. One lady (very sweet) had never had a dog before and had 2 cats. We knew (even at 16 weeks) that this would NOT be a match!!! Long story short, my husband and I decided to adopt him ourselves because he stole our hearts and we had a feeling that the applicants coming in would not be able to handle him. We would end up getting him back with behavior issues. Tyson was always very "chill" at adoption events...taking everything in and saying hi to people...so I don't think people believed me when I told them how drivey he was. Talk about your false advertising!!!!

After adoption, we put him in training immediately with a great behaviorist in North Carolina. Without that, he would be extremely hard to handle because of his hard-headedness, drive, and intelligence. (Can I get an AMEN! from anyone out there?!?!?!) And the training NEVER STOPS...EVER...EVER... Even when we play, we incorporate training. One thing I have learned about this breed is that when you say "I exercise my dog x times and for x hours per day," that better include mental because if you don't work them physically and mentally, everything builds up and you get crazy-hour on steroids!!!

On walks, we don't just stroll and take in the scenery...we are always doing something else, even if it is going over basic commands (sit, down, stop out of motion, front, eye contact while walking, etc, etc..). [This is soooo much harder now that the leaves are off the trees...he can actually see the squirrels and he scans the treetops the entire time. He wants one sooooo bad!!! LOL] The obedience work, of course, brings lots of comments about how well trained he is on top of the comments of how striking he is and "what kind of dog is that?". After telling inquirers that he is "a Dutch Shepherd mix, we think," I am extremely quick to point out that the DS breed is closest to a Mal (explaining where they have probably seen a Mal...as police dogs, military dogs) and are very high energy, very drivey, and require consistent training (far and above your average big box pet store obedience training) and exercise...that they need a job or they will make one...and that I like my couch just the way it is...with no holes in it. I get this look a lot

Many breeds have the brindle gene...pits, boxers, greyhounds, whippets, french bulldogs, mastiffs, boston terriers, curs, many hound dog breeds, dachshunds, akitas, borzois, bull terriers..... You see the point here. For the DS owners and experts on this forum to say that Ginger is a DS simply because she is brindle and looks shepherd-y would be irresponsible on their part and for you to say that she is, in spite of all of the expertise on this forum saying she is more than likely not, is irresponsible on your part as pointed out by Dutchman's post. If the experts on this forum had told me that they saw zero DS, it wouldn't have changed how I feel about him. He is the smartest, driveyest, most high energy dog I have ever owned and I would have simply gone back to saying he is some sort of shepherd mix that we rescued from certain death at a shelter... To be clear, Tyson has too much white and is a little small for a male to be purebred, but his body style (sleek, slender, "too skinny" as Eric referenced in an earlier post and "the tuck up" as Stephanie referenced earlier) and his temperament/behavior/drive, etc all say DS is in there somewhere... I call him my "pocket DS mix."

Why is it so important for you to nail down a specific breed? It seems that you want to be part of a "club" (your word, not mine) more that the members of this forum desire to have a club... You asked for opinions and got them...the overall consensus from the experts on this forum is: no, she is not a DS. Why can't you be happy that you rescued an amazing dog without caring about what breed she may or may not be?

Please think about what Lisa said:

While you are going around trying to prove to the world that Ginger is a DS and telling every one you meet she is one, you are increasing the chances of some average Joe doggie owner to go find one, then only to find out that they are no where near what he was looking for in a dog companion and sends it back to the shelter, now one step closer to being un adoptable.

This is a real problem and costs lives. Rescues only have so much space to place dogs with fosters and only so much money to put towards training and behavior modification. Taking a strong breed like a DS who has been inadvertently ruined by an incapable owner costs THOUSANDS of dollars and if rescues don't have the funds available, then said DS reject gets put down because they have more than likely been labeled RESCUE ONLY due to behavior issues.

I think that may be the longest post in my history here...I now have carpel tunnel...

[johninny]

and a short one from me: i said this in a prior post maybe a year ago and for some reason got some real criticism for it, but i continue to do it FOR ALL THE REASONS JUST CITED IN PRIOR POSTS with which i obviously agree in the extreme ----- when i am out with my DS [ at least 2 of which i would say are as full breed as possible ] and someone asks [and as we all know someone does multiple times a day!], ''WOW, what is that dog, what breed?'', i respond, at least initially, that it's a mix. if pressed i say,''some sort of shepherd mix or something.''

[Flying Dutchman]

when i am out with my DS [ at least 2 of which i would say are as full breed as possible ] and someone asks [and as we all know someone does multiple times a day!], ''WOW, what is that dog, what breed?'', i respond, at least initially, that it's a mix. if pressed i say,''some sort of shepherd mix or something.''

I have to laugh because I joke that I am going to start telling people I have a shepherd mix. But it gets a little hard when you have 5 and when they are out all together or in multiples.

My reply last night was not about being snobby or having an exclusive "club." But I am getting more blunt with my opinions when people ask me, "Is my dog a DS?" or I see a supposed DS posted somewhere because it's just not a good idea to randomly assign this breed to dogs who are more likely than not a wonderful non-DS mix. And as pointed out, this false advertising isn't just specific to DS but is true of Malinois and many other breeds.

If I am forced to tell someone the breed of our dogs, I usually now respond with, "He/She is a Dutch Shepherd. They are bred and used for police and military work and NO, you do not want one." LOL

[Starlight Pilot]

I'm certain that she is not a Dutch Shepherd. To me she looks a lot like a pit mix with her boxy head, ears turned outwards...in the first picture she looks akita-like or chow mix like. She's beautiful!!! She looks like a Pariah dog. You could always change your mind you know.

I would not misinform people if I were you about your dog being a Dutchie. The reason is because real Dutchies typically DO NOT make good pets.

[gingerman]

Lordy, I keep trying to get this discussion out of the weeds and into a place that has a point but it keeps getting brought down. Ironically. Of all your concerns, really I'm just about the last person you guys should be worried about. I'm capable of far subtler thought than most of you seem to think, and I have been striving for ACCURATE information for that reason. I was a very reluctant dog owner just as I was with my previous dog because of how seriously I take the responsibility, and none of you need to tell me that it is a tragedy the number of people carelessly getting dogs that are completely inappropriate for them. It's actually because of my experience with my previous dog and Ginger's apparent characteristics that I adopted her. I do not have an easy life; I am my mother's fulltime caregiver. She went to a nursing home after suffering a stroke during open heart surgery, but then developed a MRSA infection they were ignoring, so I took her out of the home and have taken care of her ever since. I live in poverty since I don't get paid for my work, and for some reason that is inexplicable to me get no support of any kind from most of my family, so you can see why I was reluctant to adopt Ginger...her care was going to be an extreme financial burden, and I'm not going to feed my dog "Ol Roy".

After my experience with Val(Valkyrie), I adopted the philosophy that dogs adopt the owner, because Val adopted me, and I thought I might never have another dog because I thought no other dog would be as brilliant, sweet and beautiful as Val..(Of course I'm totally bias, but she really was fabulous). I've never even thought about getting another dog, and when people would ask me if I ever would I would respond "probably not but If I ever do it's because they adopted me". Then there was Ginger.......
Given my life, wanting some sexy, exotic, and easily lethal dog was just the last thing on my list, but Ginger, apart from following me around constantly the moment my sister brought her home, was a dog I felt I could understand and handle better than most, and wanted to save her from "getting into the wrong hands".

Ginger is DEFINITELY not a dog for everyone (is there really such a thing), but thank god she is a perfect match for me, and from the information I've gathered from your posts and other sites, most pedigree dutchies would be disastrous for my situation, and I could imagine many environments where Ginger would be a disaster for another owner. Ginger is a strikingly beautiful and impressive dog, and YES, lots of people "Want one", and I "mistaking" her for a DS or DS mix immediately started to worry me about DS becoming the "hot new breed" and all the horrors that go along with that. I think they are going to be anyway, and there is nothing we can do to stop it, but I will do what I've always tried to do to stop stupid decision making when It comes to dog ownership. So everyone, please stop being so condescending and playing psychologists, I can "handle the truth" and NO, I will not respect your AUTHORITAHHHHHHH.

As far as Ginger goes, she is a DS mix. She really looks nothing like any breeds that have been mentioned even if she might in a couple of the pics, or any other breed I know of, so unless I am overlooking some breed or Mix I've never heard of and all of you are keeping a secret from me for some reason, The chances of getting to ginger without ANY dutch shepherd blood is even more unlikely than her being a pedigree, if I am wrong it should be easy for you guys to prove it by posting examples of another breed or mix that appears as close to Ginger as the DS does, but I'm STILL WAITING. Once again, I'm trying to make Ginger a DS, it still just seems the most logical conclusion at this point. Parsing pedigree, mix, or some other breed altogether IS important I think (BTW the weight standard for working dutchies is 90 to 120lbs, I did not bother to mention it because it was stated in the last link I posted. Ginger has lost a couple of pounds and I think will not end up above about 85lbs, so as far as non-registered criteria goes, she has no weight prob. Whether or not a dog is a pure DS, non-registered working DS, or a Mix could make a huge difference in what types of homes they would be a fit for or not, and that's why I'm still trying to figure out these differences. Ginger seems to have obvious dutchie and obvious non-dutchie traits, but there are many traits I have no idea. I've ran across many dogs that seem to be like ginger (Sage for instance), and the flaws in appearance seem to accompany similar personality variations, which would be consistent with what I've read about DS and what I know about genetics. If Ginger was a random mix of dogs that just happened to look "off dutch", then the chances of their being dogs similar to her but also without a shred of dutchie in them would be basically impossible, but they exist. so can we keep open minds and stay out of the weeds? I'm out of time for the moment but will more specifically adress previous posts as I can.

P.S. Dutchringgirl, if you are not going to bother actually reading and comprehending my responses, THEN PLEASE DON'T BOTHER RESPONDING.

[Dutchringgirl]

Please answer me why it is our job to find a gazillion examples of why she is not a DS, we have done that already and you do not want to succumb to the idea that she is not. We are all going in one direction and you in another so that is why to you say the post is in the weeds. Its not going how you want it.

We have spoken the truth, you cannot handle it since you keep coming back and insisting she is a DS.

She is not a DS

[Raven]

I'm interested in the sources that cite the average weight of a WL DS as 90-120 pounds. The DS is known to be agile, and considering their build, that's a lot, especially for fluid agility. (National Geo used a DS in a profile and they incorrectly listed the weight of Dutch shepherd dogs as 130 pounds. There are exceptions, of course; Bor from Kole Mountain, I imagine, does not weigh 65-75 pounds.)

[Stacy_R]

I'm interested in the sources that cite the average weight of a WL DS as 90-120 pounds. The DS is known to be agile, and considering their build, that's a lot, especially for fluid agility. (National Geo used a DS in a profile and they incorrectly listed the weight of Dutch shepherd dogs as 130 pounds. There are exceptions, of course; Bor from Kole Mountain, I imagine, does not weigh 65-75 pounds.)

I am curious about that as well. Specifically because when I thought Tyson might have some DS in there somewhere I did a lot of research and never once came across that range as a possible adult weight for him...

BREED STANDARD:
FCI Standard for the Dutch Shepherd Dog
Hollandse Herder

GENERAL APPEARANCE: a medium-sized, middleweight, well-proportioned, well-muscled dog of powerful, well-balanced structure, with intelligent expression and lively temperament.

SIZE: the length of the body exceeds the height at the withers in a ration of ten to nine. Size: dogs (22.44" - 24.41"), bitches (21.65" - 23.62").

GAIT-MOVEMENT: smooth, supple, true. The movement should be neither constrained nor floating, nor too far-reaching.

***For me, "medium-sized, middleweight, well-proportioned" when combined with size (21"-25" at the withers) does not equal a standard of 90-120 lbs. More like 50-75 lbs.

CherCar lists this on their page: The Dutch Shepherd is a medium sized dog, (22’-25” tall weighing 55-67 pounds),

Vandalia this: SIZE - Males & Females (the standard size preferred to compete in KNPV); HEIGHT FROM THE WITHERS at least 21 5/8" tall and not taller than 27 9/16"; Weight is between 60lbs to 80 lbs

[Travis]

Lordy, I keep trying to get this discussion out of the weeds and into a place that has a point but it keeps getting brought down...


P.S. Dutchringgirl, if you are not going to bother actually reading and comprehending my responses, THEN PLEASE DON'T BOTHER RESPONDING.

I had a few different replies started to this then I realized I could best sum them up by instead replying.

Gingerman: ZOMG!!! I just re-read the thread and looked at all your pictures again! Your case is so compelling and knowledge through in depth internet research so profoundly above all the experience of the collective site. Your dog is most definitely a Dutch Shepherd. ALL of us thinking otherwise have been wrong from the first moment.

Let me be the first to offer my most profound apologies at putting you through the stress of having to spend all the extra time to set everyone straight on the matter. I look forward to hearing your wisdom and incite in future postings.

[Stacy_R]

Travis ~
I love your signature....

1 - 42 pound pocket dutch tennis ball addict...

I call Tyson my pocket DS-mix (45 lbs at last weigh-in about 2 months ago when he turned 1 y.o.) and he is SUCH the tennis ball addict!!! LOL

They could be partners in crime, fo' sho'!!

[gingerman]

raven:

The weight classification was in an eirlier post

http://www.vankamphuis.com/dutchiehistory.pdf

"While the Dutch Shepherd is a breed in its own right there are now generally
considered to be two different “types” of Dutch Shepherd available.
The first is the FCI registered Dutch Shepherd. These dogs are bred to FCI
standards with official pedigrees and generally compete in conformation shows
and or are trained in various dog sports and working pursuits such as IPO,
Agility and SAR. These dogs, like most pedigree dogs, are in the main, bred
more for conformation showing as per FCI Standards, with only a few breeders
concentrating on producing these dogs specifically for working pursuits. The
registered Dutch Shepherd is not a large breed in terms of numbers with
approximately 4000 dogs currently registered with the FCI.

"The second type of Dutch Shepherd is that most commonly found in the Royal
Dutch Police Dog or “Koninklijke Nederlandse Politiehond Vereniging” (KNPV)
training program. Here in it’s homeland the Dutch Shepherd is one of the
mainstay breeds of the KNPV, along with the ever-popular Malinois."

"The difference with the unregistered Dutch Shepherds found in the KNPV
program is that they have a strong influence of Malinois blood in them. Without
the restriction of official registration or pedigree, the definition of whether a dog
is a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd, primarily comes down to appearance. When
a Malinois is bred to a Dutch Shepherd some of the pups will be born with a
Fawn coat and will be known as a Malinois, while others will be born with a
brindle coat and will be known as a Dutch Shepherd. One legendry KNPV Dutch
Shepherd was Arras Pegge. While Arras had a Dutch Shepherd for a mother his
father was a Malinois. This simple classification process has allowed the
unregistered Dutch Shepherd (and unregistered Malinois for that matter) to
develop and maintain a large gene pool for breeding. Although the unregistered
Dutch Shepherd can carry a good deal of Malinois blood, people often comment
that they still maintain the often desirable traits of the Dutch Shepherd, that is, a
highly driven, sometimes stubborn dog with more calmness than a Malinois.
They are also often described as “a Malinois with an off switch!”
In general, the un-registered KNPV Dutch Shepherd is a larger dog (males can
reach over 70 cms at the shoulder and weigh up to 55 kgs, while females can
reach over 65 cms and weigh up to 40 kgs) with larger bones and head size than
the FCI registered dogs. They also commonly have a far more highly and widely
regarded working character than the Dutch Shepherds bred solely to FCI
standards. "

40/55kg - approx 90/120 lbs....

While I am pretty ignorant about dutch shepherd pedigrees, there seem to be many "experts" on this forum with broad ignorance about just how "loose" KNPV standards are. Many of you may scoff at the idea that just because a dog is a shepherd with a brindle coat it can be called a DS, but as far as KNPV goes, that's good enough for them as long as it has the right working characteristics. Ginger is obviously a Shepherd if you were to ever actually meet her, and she is obviously brindled, by their standards she is a dutch shepherd, and I didn't make these rules, sorry travis and dutchringgirl.

[Travis]

Travis ~
I love your signature....

1 - 42 pound pocket dutch tennis ball addict...

I call Tyson my pocket DS-mix (45 lbs at last weigh-in about 2 months ago when he turned 1 y.o.) and he is SUCH the tennis ball addict!!! LOL

They could be partners in crime, fo' sho'!!

We always tease Luna that she's "built for portability" and that we're going "to pick her up in our arms and embarrass her in front of her friends."

Does Tyson do the thing where he turns into "Robo-dog" when the tennis ball comes out? Luna almost can't process information correctly when there's a tennis ball present. It always cracks us up to see her get that blank look and just track the the tennis ball left to right like some kind of possessed dog robot. Won't eat grilled chicken or steak even if there's a tennis ball around, etc. It's ridiculous. We have to ban them from the house and only bring them out for on-field exercise and flyball.

[Stacy_R]

So the weight classification from one source outweighs (no pun intended) the weight classification standards listed on multiple other sites of reputable breeders simply because it agrees with your already made up mind?

Ginger is obviously a Shepherd if you were to ever actually meet her, and she is obviously brindled, by their standards she is a dutch shepherd, and I didn't make these rules, sorry travis and dutchringgirl.

Fabulous. So in your way of thinking any dog that has any shepherd-type looks and has a brindled coat is to be considered a DS? I think not. That is the exact type of thinking that muddies up the gene pool.

According to your thinking, all of the following dogs should be classified as DS because they have shepherd type features:

Brindle1.jpg (189.89 KiB) Viewed 5315 times

brindle2.jpg (139.59 KiB) Viewed 5315 times

brindle4.jpg (47.08 KiB) Viewed 5315 times

brindle6.jpg (90.69 KiB) Viewed 5315 times

brindle7.jpg (10.55 KiB) Viewed 5315 times

1-1-brindle9.JPG (502.35 KiB) Viewed 5315 times

For the record...none of these are DS...not-a-one. 4 are mixes (not including DS in the mix) and 2 are actually specific purebred dogs.

I go back to my previous statements:
For the DS owners and experts on this forum to say that Ginger is a DS simply because she is brindle and looks shepherd-y would be irresponsible on their part and for you to say that she is, in spite of all of the expertise on this forum saying she is more than likely not, is irresponsible on your part.

Again, I ask: Why is it so important for you to nail down a specific breed?
It seems that you want to be part of a "club" (your word, not mine) more that the members of this forum desire to have a club... You asked for opinions and got them...the overall consensus from the experts on this forum is: no, she is not a DS. Why can't you be happy that you rescued an amazing dog without caring about what breed she may or may not be? You didn't care what she was when she adopted you, so why does it matter so much now?

[Raven]

Topic: chocolate.

Is it bad for you? A few years ago, yes. Now, dark chocolate is fine. But an ounce an day.

I like dark chocolate. So I talk about how good dark chocolate is for health.

But I keep that current research dictates that only an ounce has benefits. Anything more and it's not good for you.

And that's what I see you missing. The specificity, the details.

You're using information to suit your purpose.

You site the one source when I asked for your sources, as in plural. Research requires a multitude of reliable sources. First, what are your qualifications to define yourself expert enough to know reliable data versus information put forth by people with agendas and/or questionable research? (Rhetorical question.)

Also, you initially cited Seven Pines Kennel as a source to back up your claims, but you didn't when responding to the question of sources for weight data.

I kindly told you that injecting inflammatory remarks did not promote good discussion, and yet I continue to read your passive-aggressive barbs and jabs. I don't understand. Sometimes it just seems like you want to argue and put down people who-----ah, whatever. I also said that sometimes we learn, too, by listening. I don't really see where you're doing that. You're just arguing.

As for you knowing more about KNPV lines than anyone here, since you suggested we don't...I'd like to ask you (in all serious) to think about that in the shower, or as you drift off to sleep, or when doing some necessary but thankless job you have to do because you are a caregiver (been that, done that, know the feeling). How likely is that, really? KNPV are not easy to understand. Yet...you know more based on...what?

I love this kind of stuff. But I'd like to see more e-listening, that you've actually given more thought to what has been said instead of throwing our words, your barbs and jabs, and internet research in faces.

I'm not sure that you've ever once said something like...oh, I see your point there...okay. Some people have given that to you. And please don't say people haven't given points. That's old-hat now.

I see this going on like a treadmill without a timer setting, so the platform keeps spinning yet we've lost not a pound. (Probably since we're eating too much dark chocolate.)