Dutch Shepherd Forum

this is intended more as a thank you and progress report than a review.

thanks to excellent and exceptional guidance as to product and USE thereof from Christie, Stephanie, and Laura, i went ahead and got a Dogtra multi-dog collar system [ Edge ] and have been using it for a few weeks. i wanted it to help correct some behaviors where my guidance/supervision may not always be available [ harassing passers-by, visitors coming through the gate, etc ] and long-distance recall and other safety issues off-leash in public.

per Christie's instructions, i made sure all dogs knew very well what was expected of them and the commands associated with that behavior. the collars were primarily used only in the first week because the results were so immediately spectacular. basically, a low shock made it less fun and exciting to harass neighbors than to heed my commands; and by the end of the first 10 days made any such command [ leave it/here] unnecessary - which was my real objective as i want certain composure whether i am present or not. probably not perfect yet [the level of harassment when there is any is very low level], but very good for only a few [ maybe 5 or less ] instances of use. perfection will be easy to achieve from here with more practice in better weather and from here the collars may only go back on if any remnants of stubbornness remain re passers-by.

the main use going forward will then be during off-leash public walks. RECALL reinforcement when necessary: after minimal use, there is already huge improvement but not tested enough by other loose dogs or running wildlife. and Safety practices like staying off the street [ and later when they start swimming a lot, not drinking bay water/bad water ]. each dog has had only 2 or 3 e-collar runs off-leash in public, but what was achieved with absolutely minimal use of the collars was incredible. for the Safety practices, i find doing one at a time works much better than 2 on a walk. it has allowed for clear verbal communication, and then introduction of precisely-timed nick interventions for unwanted movement; [ and i lack the dexterity that most people probably do have to effectively operate the control for different dogs at different levels].

minimal use of the e-collars has eliminated most tension and conflict that remained between me and the dogs - so we have bonded much more closely, which has further reinforced their desires to please, their good behavior, etc. all-in-all, spectacular results from the dogtra collars despite the fact that they have hardly been on the dogs for more than a few hours in total over 5 or 6 weeks [ mostly that 1st week ]!

thanks again to everyone for your input, but especially to Christie for your thorough ''how to'' advice.
in just the first 2 days i went from exasperation to comfort of mind because of the e-collars. i would never have done it without your steering me to the right product and the instruction on use. [ even simple new things can be a challenge for me beyond what one could imagine AND i have always been wary of such collars as a method of control.].

Thank you, John, for the review!! Tyson is struggling a bit with his recall when he is focused on things such as squirrels and I was considering going the E-collar route.

Awesome to hear of your great progress! There's so much that can be accomplished with low stim ecollar work and the dogtra is a great brand.

I'll add to your post to keep my review in the same place. After your original questions about the ecollar, I decided it was time to get a new one for myself and after a few long conversations with Steve from Gun Dog Supply (amazing customer support with his company), I got the SportDog 425. This was my first new brand in a while, and I'm very happy with it. I used to use an older model innotek and Dogtra, but decided on the sportdog because of the tone, vibe, and stim features along with multiple dog options and the fact that I keep the remote in my pocket for competition training and the dogtra dial was too easy to spin, plus I don't need a long range right now so I didn't want to invest as much as the dogtra costs.

Elli is very responsive to the ecollar and with it's addition to our training program, she's learned a lot more. I use the ecollar very minimally in training most dogs, but she responds so well to the techniques I'm using with it compared to other methods (clicker only, prong, etc). I mainly use it on vibrate to teach a look cue, rather than a correction so we can work on keeping a focused heel and stay with distractions.

Thanks Stephanie...
I am going to have to do a comparison between the Dogtra and the Sportdog. I don't need anything with multiple dog options, but like the idea of being able to keep the remote in my pocket and not have to worry about a spin dial.

Good info.

Stacy_R wrote:Thanks Stephanie...
I am going to have to do a comparison between the Dogtra and the Sportdog. I don't need anything with multiple dog options, but like the idea of being able to keep the remote in my pocket and not have to worry about a spin dial.

Good info.

I highly highly recommend sending an email to the customer service at Gun Dog Supply and tell them exactly what you want in a collar, or what you're trying to accomplish with your training and your budget. I know a lot about training with an ecollar, the different methods, troubleshooting training problems, and weaning the dog off for true off leash obedience, but Steve and the folks at Gun Dog Supply really know the technology behind the collars.

i had looked at the dogtra site and was confused about the iq/multiple dog situation. so i asked a trainer who determined exactly which one i needed on a particular sales site and sent me a link to that page; i bought it; nothing happened for a long time. turned out the seller was out-of-stock of that item that dogtra no longer made. it was replaced by the more expensive ''edge'', but due to their neglect of the matter [ taking my money and then doing nothing ], got the edge at a good price, tho it is hardly reasonable in absolute terms.

the dial is a bit much as Stephanie said, though with some work, it can be changed to work in a different way [ in steps like the mode selection ][ probably easy, but beyond my pay scale]. Stephanie probably stated this in the initial conversation about e-collars, but, as this is a new product, i will restate that it has vibrate, electric nick, and continuous electric modes.

one more thing not mentioned before so it may be a ''new'' feature is the light. in that mode, holding a dog's button on the remote turns on a very bright, color-coded LED light on that dog's collar . a short press of the button in light mode turns on the light and has it flash every 4 [?] seconds til turned off. i LOVE this feature. it may not be terribly useful for most people, but it allows me to walk the dogs together or separately in the dark on the beach [ or even the street this evening ] and know where everyone is. and on the street tonite, the light was so bright it caused passing cars to slow down as they saw an emergency flasher scampering around low to the ground. it might have been years - if ever - that i would trust any of these dogs in the dark like i did TD, but these e-collars have made possible to continue walking comfortably off-leash even as the sun surprises me mid-walk by disappearing so early and so quickly.

that long-distance feature of dogtra is again a feature you either need or do not need. i do need it.
one final thing that trainer said that i cannot confirm and probably is not true of a nice new collar that Stephanie got: he said the dogtra collars have NO lag between pressing remote and the collar response, whereas he has found an annoying lag with other brands [ like the lag on some digital cameras ]. for me this was further proof of the brilliance of Stephanie's original recommendation [ dog - specifically Xander - running down the beach and jumps on a stranger: stronger stim needs to arrive before paws are back on the ground, etc, etc ].

less expensive sounds like a good place to start if this new brand has what is needed.

note since earlier posting: each dog had a very long walk starting on beach, then going onto streets unknown to the 2 puppies. all 3 were just unbelievably good. used very light ''nick'' stim only 2 or 3 times for each dog. from the bluff on Xander's turn there were people [ 3 together ] in one direction, so we went that way as his grand test [ he is hyper-caffeinated and thinks every human he sees is his best friend !]. i let him charge on ahead with my finger on the button, but this time no out-of-control barking and his charge ended with tail-wagging at their feet with not a single attempted jump up. all loved him/ no fear generated by out-of-control friendliness. this was my single biggest problem with him - at home and in public - and ONE prior stim has apparently resolved the problem.
also, i had planned to put the newest pup Tracer on leash when we got to traveled streets, but he was performing so perfectly that i did not and was not at all disappointed.
so these collars have produced much more solid progress on multiple fronts than i knew even hours earlier today.

LyonsFamily wrote:I highly highly recommend sending an email to the customer service at Gun Dog Supply and tell them exactly what you want in a collar, or what you're trying to accomplish with your training and your budget. I know a lot about training with an ecollar, the different methods, troubleshooting training problems, and weaning the dog off for true off leash obedience, but Steve and the folks at Gun Dog Supply really know the technology behind the collars.

Thanks for this advice. I will absolutely do that so that I can spend the least amount possible and still get the correct product for my needs.

And John, thanks for the progress reports!!! Sounds like your pack is doing VERY well!!!

a little follow-up to my last Dogtra comments.

as you can see from my last post, the dogtra had such great positive impact - used a very few times and used gently - that even within hours of first use, the dogs were transforming wonderfully. did not use the collars much because of that [ and for 7 months i hardly left the house on foot with them! ] until this summer when i thought with people and dogs on the beach i NEEDED the e-collars if i were to walk all 3 simultaneously.

at first the temptations were such that that was true, but like in the fall, they quickly learned good behavior [following instructions, not running up to other dogs, etc.] and could be managed without the collars, although in peak season i left the collar on Tracer because he is not a fan of dog strangers, but, in fact, never had to use it because he did listen and accept guidance [ which he needed 2 or 3 times].

now here is the real reason i am writing: while thrilled in every other way, 2 of the 3 collars have malfunctioned. one was faulty from the start with its low-stim range simply missing; the 2nd succumbed to water 2 months ago. both instances were within the 1 year warranty and replacement could not have been easier OR more prompt. but to have 2 of 3 in my albeit very limited sample go bad [ or in this case 1 arrive faulty ] within 1 year suggests the lifespan of this equipment may not extend much beyond the warranty period. IF that is true, it would become a very expensive proposition to keep an e-collar around.

Stephanie, have there been any downsides to the Sportdog collar? does it have a light like the dogtra? any knowledge or observations on relative durability?

johninny wrote: Stephanie, have there been any downsides to the Sportdog collar? does it have a light like the dogtra? any knowledge or observations on relative durability?

The only real downside I've found is the limited range. They only have 14 levels. 7 levels on the remote, and then the collar can be switched from low or high (default is low). I'm usually on a 2 with those for my guess and they work fine. I'd like a little more range for behavioral training, especially for other breeds that aren't so smart.

They don't have a flashlight of any sort, but they have a small red LED light to indicate the collar is working. If you're trying to find a dog in the dark, you can always hit the beep button and to hear and see the little LED light. I like the collar, but the receiver is not a slide through like on a lot of other brands, so switching from dogs with massively different sized necks like Odin and Elli, means that the receiver is off center from the buckle. It usually isn't a big deal to me, but I try to leave consistency in the buckle placement so that I can transition to a competition collar. I'm thinking about getting a bungee collar to remount the receiver.


I'm currently looking to try out the new Educator Collars. They used to be called Einstein for years, but then someone (Harvard I think?) wanted rights to the name and sued them. Anyway, they're giving me a model to try for 30 days to see if I want to become a dealer. I looked at them at a trade show 2 weeks ago and they have a lot of really nice features including faceplates to make the remote different colors. The only con was that the remote was a little bulky for women's jean pockets, but they have and recommend a belt clip for easy access or the standard lanyard. I should be getting one in a couple of weeks and will hopefully post a review once I've had it for a while.

I know this is an old post but I was looking at one of the educator collars with the bungee collar and 3/4 mile range. What was your experience like with it. Would you recommend them?

505Fire wrote:I know this is an old post but I was looking at one of the educator collars with the bungee collar and 3/4 mile range. What was your experience like with it. Would you recommend them?

Which model are you looking at? All of them can have a bungee cord as an option and I really like the bungee especially if you're training with different collars so that it stays in place.

I tried the mini educator and really liked it. It has 1/2 mile range, but that's all I need since I'm never more than 200 yards or so when training. I still think the remote is a little awkward for close obedience stuff, but if you're working on recall and distance work, it has a nice feel. I'm always jugging treats and toys and sometimes a leash and it's hard to fit a remote in with it all. I'd definitely recommend them over the dogtra. I'm still looking to try the Garmin one with the built in bark collar before I give up my old sportdog.

The K9-400 was just one that I found that I was looking at because it had the bungee collar. They seem to have good reviews. And with a limited lifetime warranty it seems like a pretty good deal.

I have the 400. I personally love it because I'm not constantly battling with what button does what. My guy is fairly sensitive so I didn't need a heck of a lot of power in it and I rarely have to go over a 10, mainly stay around a 5-7. You can program the boost button to up a certain level and I love the light in it. I had the remote die on me around 8 months but Educator/Einstein replaced ASAP with great customer service. Haven't had a problem, never had the signal fail, or not work, and for me and my small hands it just feels comfortable. Only other ecollar I would suggest would be the Dogtra 1900 - I've briefly used it and it has more power than the Educator if you need it, but I wasn't a super fan of the remote design. Depends more on how your pup responds to correction. You can also always double box too.

Edit: I'll also add that you can buy the bungee collar separate from Vitamin K9 (Mike AWD on Facebook) for a bit cheaper than the kits (and pick out colors!). Also Working Dog Dry Goods or Gun Dog Supply generally have the better deals on the educators.

Wonderful! Thank you guys for the help! I think I'm going to order one of the Educators tomorrow. I will check out those sites for the best deal. What is double boxing?

Double boxing is two receivers on one collar (I think you'd need a two dog system essentially). I've never personally done it, and if you talk to the guys at Working Dog Dry Goods they're very knowledgable about the Educators and what system specifically you'd need, but from what I understand you'd want to double box if your dog was extremely hard headed and needed that extra kick to get through to them. Again, all depends on how well you know your dog and how they take correction.

Ah ok two of the shock portions on one dog. Thanks for the info. I shouldn't need that. I think he will be fine with the standard single one. He listens well for most things just using it to try and help with some animal aggression because he stops listening when he gets in that mode.

while doing Bite work I have only seen one dog need two collars and that was a very very very hard dog.

Dutchringgirl wrote:while doing Bite work I have only seen one dog need two collars and that was a very very very hard dog.

Wasn't that a Mal?

Raven wrote:

Dutchringgirl wrote:while doing Bite work I have only seen one dog need two collars and that was a very very very hard dog.

Wasn't that a Mal?

as a matter of fact, it was a Mal

This is long, bear with me.

Two receivers can also be used on one collar when you want to change the place of the correction for different commands without moving the collar. The way electronic stim works is it contracts the muscles, so when you're teaching a down, for example, you want the stim to be on top. When you're teaching the dog to sit from a down, you want it to be on the bottom of the neck. If you're teaching or proofing these by themselves, 1 receiver is fine. Since I just put the collar on a very low level for an attention command rather than an aversive correction, I keep the collar at the side of the neck at all times and one receiver works for me.

If you're looking for more precise control, for example, you're teaching motion exercises from a distance and you're either teaching with the ecollar using pressure/release, or you're using it for correcting at a slightly higher level, you want to be able to apply pressure in the right direction. You never stim both at the same time, but it allows you to switch back and forth without moving the collar.

It's also very important in bitework if you're working on the out, to have the receiver on the top because the contraction when on the bottom of the neck will actually prevent a dog from opening it's mouth fast enough and it throws off your timing and can mess up a clean out. If you have a dog that chooses to down and guard rather than sit and bark and hold, you may want an extra receiver on the bottom of the collar to correct for that too if you're working off leash during something like a blind search. You can also obtain the same thing with a line and prong for the sit correction, but the collar removes the handler and lets you add distance.

Using 2 receivers separately on the same dog requires really really good timing though and a handler that can multi task and probably isn't something to worry about unless you have a trainer that knows their stuff and suggests it for your particular dog.

Now, if you're looking for an ecollar for aggression or reactivity issues, you might want to consider the Garmin Delta Sport so that you can go hands free in the bark collar mode and improve your timing. (I'm assuming you know what you're doing with an ecollar and you've already concluded that the aggression isn't fear based, of course.)