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Another Question

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Christie M
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Tell us about yourself: Love my striped beasts.

Another Question

Post by Christie M » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:36 am

I was taught that Dutch Shepherds (short haired, anyway) come in 2 colors - gold brindle and silver brindle, with the silvers possibly not really existing.

In other breeds, when the tan is more predominant than the black, they call it reverse brindle. In French Bulldogs, this is an accepted and used term. Is it technically correct to use it in Dutch Shepherds to describe a dog like Ziva?

Also, ideally should the "Mask" extend all the way up the face beyond the eyes?
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown

k9katet
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Tell us about yourself: We own 3 Dutch Shepherds - Vrijheid's Amie "Vada", Vrijheid's Hafwen "Letty" and Sather's High On Life "Narc". We train/compete in a variety of dog sports with a variety of dogs.

Letty - Vrijheid's Hafwen - puppy in training
Vada - UCDX, UCH, UWP, P1 Vrijheid's Amie SchH3, ASCA CD, CD-H, FM, TF-I, TN-E, NAC, WV-N, HP-N, AG, AR, AS, SJ, AD, CL2, CL3-F, CL3-S, CL3-R, TT
Copper - UCDX, UAGII, FO Hamilton's Copper Devil BH, AMBOR CDX, ASCA CD, CD-H, FGDCh, TF-II, O-NAC, EAS, O-NJC, EJC, O-NCC, OCC, TG-N, WV-N, TN-O, HP-N, A-NJ, A-OT, JS-O, GS-N, RS-N, CSL3, CGC
Seven - Sather's Seventh Heaven, FDCh-S, TF-II, NJC, TN-N, CL1, CL2-F, PJ2, PK1
Prozac - Sather's Don't Worry Be Happy, CL1, CL2-F, CL2-H, ONYX, TF-1
Narc - Sather's High on Life, FM, TF
Location: Minnesota
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Re: Another Question

Post by k9katet » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:28 pm

Great questions that I've wondered about too. Looking forward to hearing the answers.
Heather Sather
Dutch Shepherds: Vada, Narc and Letty
Mixed Breeds: Seven and Prozac
Border Collies: Sonic and Fringe
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alspyce
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Tell us about yourself: I am in New York State. Got my first DS about 14 years ago (more or less as a rescue- lost her in Nov.). After years of GSD's, and a few dogs of other breeds (Rotti/Beauceron/Ger. Shorthaired Pointer/ Yorkie and my current Jack Russell) I now have another DS, 4mo female, no name yet, tho I have a few in mind.
Also have a horse-old quarter horse mare-32.
Can't wait for all the snow to get gone! Spring is coming too slow this year!
Location: Corinth, New York

Re: Another Question

Post by alspyce » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:50 pm

When the base color is Tan, with the black causing the brindle stripes, I always assumed that "Reverse Brindle" would be the dogs who are very dark with the Tan appearing to be causing the stripped effect. (I think also sometimes called "Black Brindle.")
Where's Judith/Marjolein for this one?
"Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened." Anatole France
Chris Carlton/Lyric

vneerland
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Re: Another Question

Post by vneerland » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:45 pm

Christie M wrote:I was taught that Dutch Shepherds (short haired, anyway) come in 2 colors - gold brindle and silver brindle, with the silvers possibly not really existing.
I like the 'possibly' not existing. I am convinced that it (genetically) does not exist. But the breed standard mentions it, so........ Silver brindle does not exist, genetically, but it is used, erroneously.
In other breeds, when the tan is more predominant than the black, they call it reverse brindle. In French Bulldogs, this is an accepted and used term. Is it technically correct to use it in Dutch Shepherds to describe a dog like Ziva?
Also, ideally should the "Mask" extend all the way up the face beyond the eyes?
It is a bit like what I said about silver brindle above. It may be an accepted term, but that does not make it correct. Reverse brindle would describe the appearance of a dog that is different from the norm (in that breed) I have heard it used to describe black dogs with what appears to be tan striping. And you say that in french bulldogs, it describes a dog that is tan with black stripes.
In DS's the norm (the ideal) would be a golden dog with a black stripe. Ziva fits that norm.
If there were such a thing, then a reversed brindle in the DS, would be a black looking dog with a tan looking stripe. But there is no such a thing. Reversed brindle is a label of (sorry!) ignorance. :oops: Genetically, brindle is, in all breeds, an expression of the K (black) locus. The stripes on any brindle dog, regardless of breed, regardless of appearance, are dark (read: black) and not tan. The tan parts are just the underlying locus (Agouti) showing through. While some breeds use that terminology, our breed is not one of them, and I personally don't think it would be advisable to start a trend that leads the non educated reader to believe that they are looking at something different than the other brindle expressions (dark vs light, light vs dark) It is simply the width of the dark (black) stripe that changes the appearance, but they are still black stripes on a tan background, with a wider stripe leaving less tan to show than a narrow one.

Mask is the appearance of black on the head. Genetically, a mask can be as little as black hair around the lips, and as much as black spreading all the way above the eyes. There are few gold brindle DS's that show a very large mask and while the full dark head is pretty, it is not an consideration when it comes to evaluation in the show ring. Prensence of a mask is preferred and in my personal opinion, more is more, but full extending masks on a golden brindle dog (like Ziva) are fairly rare.

Maybe Marjolein has some mask-expression pictures of us to look at. 8-)
ImageJudith Van Neerland Dutch Shepherds Image

Christie M
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Re: Another Question

Post by Christie M » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:10 pm

Thank you so much Judith!!

I remember the conversation about silver brindle, but I couldn't remember the specifics.

I like the way you break it down. Lets use terms that fit the genetics of what is actually going on. I appreciate the explanation!!
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown

Marjolein
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Tell us about yourself: I'm a Dutchie myself ;-) but live in Germany with Johan and my two DS's Cobber-Dingo and Knivil (Dingo and Ivil to friends...)
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Re: Another Question

Post by Marjolein » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:11 pm

hmm, masks, personally I do not have a lot of mask pics...

I think in masks the major fault is for people, even judges, to not look close enough.
Look at these 2 beasts, Ivil and Dingo:

Image
who has more mask?












well?












Ivil!


nope, Ivil is darker overall, Dingo has less brindle, so appears to have less of a mask. In fact Ivil has a small mask that barely reaches to halfway her snouth, as you can see in this pic:

Image

another typical mask:
Image
Amber

LH DS without mask:
Image


On "reversed brindle"
Image
2 different shades of brindle to compare, Ivil (in the back) has way more brindle than Dingo (foreground), so Ivil will look darker. To some this translates into a black dog with brown stripes, which is like Judith explained not the case.
Image

susanna
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Tell us about yourself: 4 year old longhaired dutch shepherd female,and its owner

Re: Another Question

Post by susanna » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:33 pm

May be a little foolish question,but why like my dog there are registered dogs for colour "brindle".
When there are gold and silver brindle dogs, so what makes the dog just term "brindle".?
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Sugars Mom
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Tell us about yourself: I adopted a Dutch Shepherd mix (without knowing what she was) from the SPCA here in Victoria BC and am now trying to learn everything I can about this breed. My husband and I work from home most of the time so I thought it was time to get a puppy! We have his 2 boys here half the time and we wanted a nice family dog.

Sugar looks like a miniature Dutch Shepherd with floppy ears, and has every ounce of DS traits in her little body!

I hope to learn from other DS owners and share doggy experiences.
Location: Victoria BC

Re: Another Question

Post by Sugars Mom » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:48 pm

I would think the label brindle covers both....
Sue (and Sugar)

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Dutchringgirl
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Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
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Re: Another Question

Post by Dutchringgirl » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:52 am

I love the pictures of Lvil and Dingo, Thalie and Sadie are opposites, Thalie is like Lvil, a darker brindle and Sadie Is lighter. Isnt the Lighter brindle a Red Brindle?
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
ImageImage

Christie M
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Re: Another Question

Post by Christie M » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:33 am

susanna wrote:May be a little foolish question,but why like my dog there are registered dogs for colour "brindle".
When there are gold and silver brindle dogs, so what makes the dog just term "brindle".?
What registry?
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown

johninny
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Tell us about yourself: DS and Mal foster newly approved aug'12 by NADSR and ABMCR. high-functioning Autistic in nyc/hamptons in my 60's. Rescued the smartest dog i had ever seen off nyc street in 2000. Tracedog's intelligence exceeded by multiples my judgement that day. My first [and only as of 10/2012] dog turned out to be a DS, perhaps with a touch of something else, but attention to detail, behavioral traits, and physical habits, movement, and skill identical to DS. But MUCH more intellectual ability. supremely confident in all settings, fearless, very outgoing and social with people and friendly with dogs. Seldom apart in over 12 years, Trace Dog was the most important relationship of my adult life; he was my partner. He died july17,2012. i am dying without him. www.youtube.com/tracesobaka www.dogster.com/dogs/637612
Location: NH/hamptons/nyc

Re: Another Question

Post by johninny » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:10 pm

hesitant to answer for someone else, but probably local license. every local government agency [and vet] i have run into here uses ''brindle'' for a color description in their REGISTRATION records. so probably nothing ''official'' in our dog world.
Susanna, is that a correct interpretation of the situation?
John & DS rscus TRACE DOG,99-12; fstr7yoCain,8-9/12; Xander(3/12)11/12-2/13; SAKIMA (b.4/12)from11/12; TxXANDER (b.2/13)from5/13; direct from CherCar: TRACER (b.5/4/13). http://www.youtube.com/sakimadoggy http://www.youtube.com/tracesobaka

susanna
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Tell us about yourself: 4 year old longhaired dutch shepherd female,and its owner

Re: Another Question

Post by susanna » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:25 am

Thanx, the guestion pops up cause theres "gold brindle" and so on within puppies parents.

Even so,think my dog belongs "gold brindle" category, but now I know answer to this also. :)

JollyRoger
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Tell us about yourself: I'm a Soldier who discovered the beauty of the Dutch Shepherd while deployed overseas. As soon as I got home I found an awesome DS puppy to call my own and we've been keeping each other busy ever since. She is now 15 months old and a great deal of fun. We spend tons of time hiking, walking, playing ball and have recently started some obstacle training to give her active mind and body new challenges.

Re: Another Question

Post by JollyRoger » Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:13 pm

Regarding silver brindle and whether or not it exists....would Marjolein's pic of the long haired dutch not be considered silver? Compared to the others which are much darker gold or rust colored it seems very silver.


Oops, just realized this thread was 2 years old. Sorry about that!
Evan - Best friend and father figure to Andraste, my 4yr old female DS and Homer (GSD)

Mark77
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Re: Another Question

Post by Mark77 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:28 am

My dog Asia has a very light brindle coloring, almost red like with tons of stripes. Riddick is very dark brindle, has longer fur and fuzzy babboo ears- which is his single greatest feature.

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