September Photo of the Month Winner
Image
Theme: Training
Pictured: Endeavor
Submitted by: TimL_168
Tracks and Searches


Just registered? Read This.
October Theme is Toys
Image

Featured Topics
To DS, or not to DS?
What's the buzz on DNA Tests?
A Malaherd?
Submissiveness
This should be read by everyone
How To Select/Research a Breeder
Other brindle breeds


Click Here for the forum Image Facebook page.

New option for posting images: Image

Attention New Members: If you sign up and don't receive an activation email right away, send an email to Centrop67 at gmail, and I will activate you manually.

Drives?

KNPV, Schutzhund, Ring, PSA, etc - General Discussion
Forum rules
Use this forum for general discussion of Protection Sports. Please use the sub-forums for specific issues in the various phases.
DogGirl_95
Puppy
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:00 am
Tell us about yourself: I have a Chocolate Labrador named Gunner. He is 8 and 90 lbs of LAZY! I also have three kitties Angel, Sophie, and Daisy our newest addition to our family!
Location: Stockbridge, GA

Drives?

Post by DogGirl_95 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:45 pm

What are Drives? How many different ones are there and what does each one stand for? Does Being Spayed/Neutered affect their Drives? Is their a certain age when they start to show their drives or are they always there? When doing Herding or Personal Protection training are you using different drives or No drives at all?

Sorry for all the Q's I am just starting to learn about this stuff and am trying my best not to be incorrectly informed about them. Thanks in advance! ;)
Caitlin Beaumont

User avatar
Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5325
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Drives?

Post by Dutchringgirl » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:12 pm

My experience with my two girls is there are many different drives. Thalie is "low" drive. She is very quiet and has always been on the calmer side. I did do Ring Sport with her and she did get wound up and did great, but didnt have the crazy ( i dont mean that in a bad way) need to get the decoy as some of the higher drive dogs, she released very easy, where the higher drive dogs dont want to let go of the decoy, like my Mal. Sadie is higher drive, she just keeps going and going, she will stop and pass out when I tell her to down and stay but her play is more constant than Thalies.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
ImageImage

User avatar
Schlussdibusti
Working Dog
Posts: 1040
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:25 pm
Tell us about yourself: I adopted a DS

Re: Drives?

Post by Schlussdibusti » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:36 pm

I would describe a 'drive' as an instinct. Animals have all sorts of natural instincts important to survive, mother instinct, territorial instinct and so on. In protection sport they make use of the prey (young dog), and later defense and fight drive. The decoy is mimicing the prey running away for example. But during bite work training of a mature dog all three (prey, defense, fight) drives are coming into play. That's why it is so important to have a good decoy who recognizes the drive the dog is currently working in and responds accordingly or to act a certain way to get the dog into a specific drive he needs to work on. This is completely out of the hand of the dog's owner. A good decoy is priceless.
Eva & Marco BH
Jupiter, Florida

DogGirl_95
Puppy
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:00 am
Tell us about yourself: I have a Chocolate Labrador named Gunner. He is 8 and 90 lbs of LAZY! I also have three kitties Angel, Sophie, and Daisy our newest addition to our family!
Location: Stockbridge, GA

Re: Drives?

Post by DogGirl_95 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:54 pm

Dutchringgirl wrote:My experience with my two girls is there are many different drives. Thalie is "low" drive. She is very quiet and has always been on the calmer side. I did do Ring Sport with her and she did get wound up and did great, but didnt have the crazy ( i dont mean that in a bad way) need to get the decoy as some of the higher drive dogs, she released very easy, where the higher drive dogs dont want to let go of the decoy, like my Mal. Sadie is higher drive, she just keeps going and going, she will stop and pass out when I tell her to down and stay but her play is more constant than Thalies.

So If I wanted a Dutch Shepherd and I wanted to do these things with it: Sacco Cart, Running, Swimming, Fetch, Personal Protection, and Agility. But be able to come home and be calm and it would be OK if I was not able to exercise it one day, would you recomend a lower drive dog? Especially since I have only had experience with owning two non-domoniant breeds? If it would make any difference I would rather own a male and keep him Intact also. Does a higher drive dog have the same temperment as a lower drive, and are they more diffucult to train?
Caitlin Beaumont

DogGirl_95
Puppy
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:00 am
Tell us about yourself: I have a Chocolate Labrador named Gunner. He is 8 and 90 lbs of LAZY! I also have three kitties Angel, Sophie, and Daisy our newest addition to our family!
Location: Stockbridge, GA

Re: Drives?

Post by DogGirl_95 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:57 pm

Schlussdibusti wrote:I would describe a 'drive' as an instinct. Animals have all sorts of natural instincts important to survive, mother instinct, territorial instinct and so on. In protection sport they make use of the prey (young dog), and later defense and fight drive. The decoy is mimicing the prey running away for example. But during bite work training of a mature dog all three (prey, defense, fight) drives are coming into play. That's why it is so important to have a good decoy who recognizes the drive the dog is currently working in and responds accordingly or to act a certain way to get the dog into a specific drive he needs to work on. This is completely out of the hand of the dog's owner. A good decoy is priceless.

Thank you! Now I have to ask how would you find a good Personal Protection trainer/decoy?
Caitlin Beaumont

User avatar
Schlussdibusti
Working Dog
Posts: 1040
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:25 pm
Tell us about yourself: I adopted a DS

Re: Drives?

Post by Schlussdibusti » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:28 pm

If you tell the forum your location, I am sure someone here can help you with that.
Eva & Marco BH
Jupiter, Florida

Jason Davis
Puppy
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:48 pm
Tell us about yourself: I compete in FR and own a 4 1/2 year old Dutch Shepherd named Sniper

Re: Drives?

Post by Jason Davis » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:36 am

If you're looking to do protection sports with a dog, I would never recommend getting a dog with low drive. You'll find it's a huge hastle and it's not a proper representation of the breed. I have a very high drive DS and when I don't feel like being bothered with his endless energy, I make him lay down and leave me alone lol. In all seriousness though, it's much easier doing this than having to "build" the drive for the dog to do the work. I'm also a training decoy besides a FR handler and know this all to well unfortunately.
I see you're from Georgia? I don't know how close you are to Atlanta, but my good friend Joey Leigh is a trainer and decoy in those parts and I would recommend him to anybody. Good luck finding what you're looking for in a dog!

User avatar
Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5325
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Drives?

Post by Dutchringgirl » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:30 pm

Thalie being low drive, did great in Ring sport, she wanted that decoy bad LOL. I beleive she is a great representation of the DS breed. The breed is super versatile and can come in many flavors, it depends on what you want to do with the dog. Sadie is higher drive and like Jason said, I just put her in a down and she will fall asleep. My Mal was high drive and I would also put him in a down to leave me alone. There are days I cant get the girls out for some good excersise and it never bothers Thalie. I do see a difference in Sadie, she will pass out for the rest of the afternoon if I can hike with her or if not, she will chew on Thalies leg.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
ImageImage

User avatar
Christie M
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:03 pm
Tell us about yourself: Love my striped beasts.

Re: Drives?

Post by Christie M » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:24 pm

I think that describing dogs as high or low drive as a generalization doesn't really do things justice. The topic of drives is hotly debated on working dog forums constantly.

Some dogs show high prey drive, but still come in the house and lay quietly chewing on a bone. I think that drives could be thought of as instinct, but more as a natural response to a specific stimulus that people have categorized.

Prey drive - the desire to catch kill something (be it a tug, a moving ball, a moving decoy, a running human, a rabbit...). I also think that prey drive has been altered in its representation in many breeds - ie, pointing or herding.

Defense drive - a forward response to perceived threat.

Fight Drive / Non-classical prey - there is a ton of debate as to whether this is a seperate "drive" or not. I won't wager an opinion, but it refers to the dogs desire to stay in the situation (a bite typically) simply because they are stimulated by the interaction/fight with the opponent.

But there is also ball drive, and hunt drive, and food drive, and.....LOL.

For what you are looking for, I think you would want a dog with high prey & food drive (handy for agility, obedience and stable protection work). Depending on the level of competition, a moderate level of defense is preferred by many, but not required for most sports. There are many lines that show "high drive" on the field, but are very livable at home. Other "low drive" dogs (when referring to work) wreck havoc at the house. Energy level does not always equate to drive.

Maybe another way to think about it is intensity. A high prey drive dog becomes intently focused on the prey object. A low prey drive dog won't care about a tug flapping around in their face. But may still run circles with energy. LOL.

Ofcourse, then there is the topic of confidence and how that effects the presentation of drives.....

How's that for clear as mud?
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown

Jason Davis
Puppy
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:48 pm
Tell us about yourself: I compete in FR and own a 4 1/2 year old Dutch Shepherd named Sniper

Re: Drives?

Post by Jason Davis » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:55 pm

Christie M wrote:I think that describing dogs as high or low drive as a generalization doesn't really do things justice. The topic of drives is hotly debated on working dog forums constantly.

Some dogs show high prey drive, but still come in the house and lay quietly chewing on a bone. I think that drives could be thought of as instinct, but more as a natural response to a specific stimulus that people have categorized.

Prey drive - the desire to catch kill something (be it a tug, a moving ball, a moving decoy, a running human, a rabbit...). I also think that prey drive has been altered in its representation in many breeds - ie, pointing or herding.

Defense drive - a forward response to perceived threat.

I'm so confused;-)

Fight Drive / Non-classical prey - there is a ton of debate as to whether this is a seperate "drive" or not. I won't wager an opinion, but it refers to the dogs desire to stay in the situation (a bite typically) simply because they are stimulated by the interaction/fight with the opponent.

But there is also ball drive, and hunt drive, and food drive, and.....LOL.

For what you are looking for, I think you would want a dog with high prey & food drive (handy for agility, obedience and stable protection work). Depending on the level of competition, a moderate level of defense is preferred by many, but not required for most sports. There are many lines that show "high drive" on the field, but are very livable at home. Other "low drive" dogs (when referring to work) wreck havoc at the house. Energy level does not always equate to drive.

Maybe another way to think about it is intensity. A high prey drive dog becomes intently focused on the prey object. A low prey drive dog won't care about a tug flapping around in their face. But may still run circles with energy. LOL.

Ofcourse, then there is the topic of confidence and how that effects the presentation of drives.....

How's that for clear as mud?

Jason Davis
Puppy
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:48 pm
Tell us about yourself: I compete in FR and own a 4 1/2 year old Dutch Shepherd named Sniper

Re: Drives?

Post by Jason Davis » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:57 pm

I'm so confused lol

User avatar
Christie M
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:03 pm
Tell us about yourself: Love my striped beasts.

Re: Drives?

Post by Christie M » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:39 pm

Jason Davis wrote:I'm so confused lol
I think that for you, a "high drive dog" is a dog that shows a ton of confidence, lots of energy and a strong prey drive, with comfortable defense. But it might not mean the same thing to someone else. They may consider a dog with a ton of defense, but no prey, to be "high drive." So I just think that using the terms as generalizations doesn't really give any information.
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown

Jason Davis
Puppy
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:48 pm
Tell us about yourself: I compete in FR and own a 4 1/2 year old Dutch Shepherd named Sniper

Re: Drives?

Post by Jason Davis » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:11 pm

I was just messin' with you, my sweet little blonde friend;-). You're right about what I prefer in a dog though!

User avatar
Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5325
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Drives?

Post by Dutchringgirl » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:51 pm

There are sooooooooo many vairables !! Thanks for defining that Christie, it makes alot of sense. Thalie is so quiet but its her prey drive that is high but its her defense drive that is low. Saide dosnt have high prey drive but high....well, chew on Thalies leg drive.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
ImageImage

User avatar
Christie M
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:03 pm
Tell us about yourself: Love my striped beasts.

Re: Drives?

Post by Christie M » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:10 pm

Dutchringgirl wrote:There are sooooooooo many vairables !! Thanks for defining that Christie, it makes alot of sense. Thalie is so quiet but its her prey drive that is high but its her defense drive that is low. Saide dosnt have high prey drive but high....well, chew on Thalies leg drive.
Love that!!!

Dante has exceptional "couch" drive.
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com

Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown

User avatar
leih merigian
Working Dog
Posts: 1960
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:20 pm
Tell us about yourself: Had a GSD, am getting a DS puppy in a few weeks. Compete in agility, obedience, and cross train in tons of stuff. Found out about this site from the DS Rescue yahoo list.

Re: Drives?

Post by leih merigian » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:08 am

Christie, what a great summary.

Drives are such a contested catogory! When I first learned about them, I was told there were 5 basic drives, and the rest fell under them; prey, fight, pack, food and sex.

I think a lot of people confuse energy level with drives, and I also see lots of folks confusing food drive with appetite (a dog with a high food drive will work for food even when it's sated).
leih merigian
Vrijheid's H'Geyser
Zodiac vom Younghaus (over the bridge)
Central VA (near Charlottesville)
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...

User avatar
Dutchringgirl
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5325
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
Location: Ct, USA
Contact:

Re: Drives?

Post by Dutchringgirl » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:46 am

leih merigian wrote:Christie, what a great summary.

I think a lot of people confuse energy level with drives, and I also see lots of folks confusing food drive with appetite (a dog with a high food drive will work for food even when it's sated).
My parents Basset Hound has great food drive!!
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
ImageImage

User avatar
Schlussdibusti
Working Dog
Posts: 1040
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:25 pm
Tell us about yourself: I adopted a DS

Re: Drives?

Post by Schlussdibusti » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:14 am

And just to make it more confusing....

how you gonna predict the drive of an 8 week old puppy? Those drives develop at different ages, no way of telling what you will get when the cute little dude looks at you at the breeder! Unless it's one of those little van Leeuwen devils hanging in your legs already :mrgreen:

For me personally, I like the calm and confident, a little bit underestimated but kicking a.. when needed. And I like dog trainers/decoys who bring out the best in a dog, even if it means more work and effort.

This is how a calm/confident puppy , in my opinion, looks like (caution: totally subjective! :mrgreen: )
IMG_0009.jpg
Eva & Marco BH
Jupiter, Florida

User avatar
kchristy
Training Dog
Posts: 539
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:07 pm
Tell us about yourself: My name is Katrina, I have 1 dutch shepherd name Merlin. He is a handful and keeps things in our house very interesting and fun :)
Location: McCurtain, Ok

Re: Drives?

Post by kchristy » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:03 am

Pretty pup, so sweet, but those eyes mean business! :player:
Katrina, Soba, & Merlin

DogGirl_95
Puppy
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:00 am
Tell us about yourself: I have a Chocolate Labrador named Gunner. He is 8 and 90 lbs of LAZY! I also have three kitties Angel, Sophie, and Daisy our newest addition to our family!
Location: Stockbridge, GA

Re: Drives?

Post by DogGirl_95 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:06 am

Jason Davis wrote:If you're looking to do protection sports with a dog, I would never recommend getting a dog with low drive. You'll find it's a huge hastle and it's not a proper representation of the breed. I have a very high drive DS and when I don't feel like being bothered with his endless energy, I make him lay down and leave me alone lol. In all seriousness though, it's much easier doing this than having to "build" the drive for the dog to do the work. I'm also a training decoy besides a FR handler and know this all to well unfortunately.
I see you're from Georgia? I don't know how close you are to Atlanta, but my good friend Joey Leigh is a trainer and decoy in those parts and I would recommend him to anybody. Good luck finding what you're looking for in a dog!

So I am being told a high-drive is good for me, so got that down but how would I know which puppies are High and Low drive at 8 weeks old?! Do I just take my best guess Lol?! I live live 20 minutes south of Atl So it would be very easy to visit him. Thanks!
Caitlin Beaumont

Post Reply