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Drives?
Forum rules
Use this forum for general discussion of Protection Sports. Please use the sub-forums for specific issues in the various phases.
Use this forum for general discussion of Protection Sports. Please use the sub-forums for specific issues in the various phases.
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- Puppy
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:00 am
- Tell us about yourself: I have a Chocolate Labrador named Gunner. He is 8 and 90 lbs of LAZY! I also have three kitties Angel, Sophie, and Daisy our newest addition to our family!
- Location: Stockbridge, GA
Drives?
What are Drives? How many different ones are there and what does each one stand for? Does Being Spayed/Neutered affect their Drives? Is their a certain age when they start to show their drives or are they always there? When doing Herding or Personal Protection training are you using different drives or No drives at all?
Sorry for all the Q's I am just starting to learn about this stuff and am trying my best not to be incorrectly informed about them. Thanks in advance!
Sorry for all the Q's I am just starting to learn about this stuff and am trying my best not to be incorrectly informed about them. Thanks in advance!
Caitlin Beaumont
- Dutchringgirl
- Global Moderator
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- Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
- Location: Ct, USA
Re: Drives?
My experience with my two girls is there are many different drives. Thalie is "low" drive. She is very quiet and has always been on the calmer side. I did do Ring Sport with her and she did get wound up and did great, but didnt have the crazy ( i dont mean that in a bad way) need to get the decoy as some of the higher drive dogs, she released very easy, where the higher drive dogs dont want to let go of the decoy, like my Mal. Sadie is higher drive, she just keeps going and going, she will stop and pass out when I tell her to down and stay but her play is more constant than Thalies.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
- Schlussdibusti
- Working Dog
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- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:25 pm
- Tell us about yourself: I adopted a DS
Re: Drives?
I would describe a 'drive' as an instinct. Animals have all sorts of natural instincts important to survive, mother instinct, territorial instinct and so on. In protection sport they make use of the prey (young dog), and later defense and fight drive. The decoy is mimicing the prey running away for example. But during bite work training of a mature dog all three (prey, defense, fight) drives are coming into play. That's why it is so important to have a good decoy who recognizes the drive the dog is currently working in and responds accordingly or to act a certain way to get the dog into a specific drive he needs to work on. This is completely out of the hand of the dog's owner. A good decoy is priceless.
Eva & Marco BH
Jupiter, Florida
Jupiter, Florida
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- Puppy
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:00 am
- Tell us about yourself: I have a Chocolate Labrador named Gunner. He is 8 and 90 lbs of LAZY! I also have three kitties Angel, Sophie, and Daisy our newest addition to our family!
- Location: Stockbridge, GA
Re: Drives?
Dutchringgirl wrote:My experience with my two girls is there are many different drives. Thalie is "low" drive. She is very quiet and has always been on the calmer side. I did do Ring Sport with her and she did get wound up and did great, but didnt have the crazy ( i dont mean that in a bad way) need to get the decoy as some of the higher drive dogs, she released very easy, where the higher drive dogs dont want to let go of the decoy, like my Mal. Sadie is higher drive, she just keeps going and going, she will stop and pass out when I tell her to down and stay but her play is more constant than Thalies.
So If I wanted a Dutch Shepherd and I wanted to do these things with it: Sacco Cart, Running, Swimming, Fetch, Personal Protection, and Agility. But be able to come home and be calm and it would be OK if I was not able to exercise it one day, would you recomend a lower drive dog? Especially since I have only had experience with owning two non-domoniant breeds? If it would make any difference I would rather own a male and keep him Intact also. Does a higher drive dog have the same temperment as a lower drive, and are they more diffucult to train?
Caitlin Beaumont
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- Puppy
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:00 am
- Tell us about yourself: I have a Chocolate Labrador named Gunner. He is 8 and 90 lbs of LAZY! I also have three kitties Angel, Sophie, and Daisy our newest addition to our family!
- Location: Stockbridge, GA
Re: Drives?
Schlussdibusti wrote:I would describe a 'drive' as an instinct. Animals have all sorts of natural instincts important to survive, mother instinct, territorial instinct and so on. In protection sport they make use of the prey (young dog), and later defense and fight drive. The decoy is mimicing the prey running away for example. But during bite work training of a mature dog all three (prey, defense, fight) drives are coming into play. That's why it is so important to have a good decoy who recognizes the drive the dog is currently working in and responds accordingly or to act a certain way to get the dog into a specific drive he needs to work on. This is completely out of the hand of the dog's owner. A good decoy is priceless.
Thank you! Now I have to ask how would you find a good Personal Protection trainer/decoy?
Caitlin Beaumont
- Schlussdibusti
- Working Dog
- Posts: 1040
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:25 pm
- Tell us about yourself: I adopted a DS
Re: Drives?
If you tell the forum your location, I am sure someone here can help you with that.
Eva & Marco BH
Jupiter, Florida
Jupiter, Florida
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- Puppy
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- Tell us about yourself: I compete in FR and own a 4 1/2 year old Dutch Shepherd named Sniper
Re: Drives?
If you're looking to do protection sports with a dog, I would never recommend getting a dog with low drive. You'll find it's a huge hastle and it's not a proper representation of the breed. I have a very high drive DS and when I don't feel like being bothered with his endless energy, I make him lay down and leave me alone lol. In all seriousness though, it's much easier doing this than having to "build" the drive for the dog to do the work. I'm also a training decoy besides a FR handler and know this all to well unfortunately.
I see you're from Georgia? I don't know how close you are to Atlanta, but my good friend Joey Leigh is a trainer and decoy in those parts and I would recommend him to anybody. Good luck finding what you're looking for in a dog!
I see you're from Georgia? I don't know how close you are to Atlanta, but my good friend Joey Leigh is a trainer and decoy in those parts and I would recommend him to anybody. Good luck finding what you're looking for in a dog!
- Dutchringgirl
- Global Moderator
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- Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
- Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
- Location: Ct, USA
Re: Drives?
Thalie being low drive, did great in Ring sport, she wanted that decoy bad LOL. I beleive she is a great representation of the DS breed. The breed is super versatile and can come in many flavors, it depends on what you want to do with the dog. Sadie is higher drive and like Jason said, I just put her in a down and she will fall asleep. My Mal was high drive and I would also put him in a down to leave me alone. There are days I cant get the girls out for some good excersise and it never bothers Thalie. I do see a difference in Sadie, she will pass out for the rest of the afternoon if I can hike with her or if not, she will chew on Thalies leg.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
- Christie M
- Global Moderator
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Re: Drives?
I think that describing dogs as high or low drive as a generalization doesn't really do things justice. The topic of drives is hotly debated on working dog forums constantly.
Some dogs show high prey drive, but still come in the house and lay quietly chewing on a bone. I think that drives could be thought of as instinct, but more as a natural response to a specific stimulus that people have categorized.
Prey drive - the desire to catch kill something (be it a tug, a moving ball, a moving decoy, a running human, a rabbit...). I also think that prey drive has been altered in its representation in many breeds - ie, pointing or herding.
Defense drive - a forward response to perceived threat.
Fight Drive / Non-classical prey - there is a ton of debate as to whether this is a seperate "drive" or not. I won't wager an opinion, but it refers to the dogs desire to stay in the situation (a bite typically) simply because they are stimulated by the interaction/fight with the opponent.
But there is also ball drive, and hunt drive, and food drive, and.....LOL.
For what you are looking for, I think you would want a dog with high prey & food drive (handy for agility, obedience and stable protection work). Depending on the level of competition, a moderate level of defense is preferred by many, but not required for most sports. There are many lines that show "high drive" on the field, but are very livable at home. Other "low drive" dogs (when referring to work) wreck havoc at the house. Energy level does not always equate to drive.
Maybe another way to think about it is intensity. A high prey drive dog becomes intently focused on the prey object. A low prey drive dog won't care about a tug flapping around in their face. But may still run circles with energy. LOL.
Ofcourse, then there is the topic of confidence and how that effects the presentation of drives.....
How's that for clear as mud?
Some dogs show high prey drive, but still come in the house and lay quietly chewing on a bone. I think that drives could be thought of as instinct, but more as a natural response to a specific stimulus that people have categorized.
Prey drive - the desire to catch kill something (be it a tug, a moving ball, a moving decoy, a running human, a rabbit...). I also think that prey drive has been altered in its representation in many breeds - ie, pointing or herding.
Defense drive - a forward response to perceived threat.
Fight Drive / Non-classical prey - there is a ton of debate as to whether this is a seperate "drive" or not. I won't wager an opinion, but it refers to the dogs desire to stay in the situation (a bite typically) simply because they are stimulated by the interaction/fight with the opponent.
But there is also ball drive, and hunt drive, and food drive, and.....LOL.
For what you are looking for, I think you would want a dog with high prey & food drive (handy for agility, obedience and stable protection work). Depending on the level of competition, a moderate level of defense is preferred by many, but not required for most sports. There are many lines that show "high drive" on the field, but are very livable at home. Other "low drive" dogs (when referring to work) wreck havoc at the house. Energy level does not always equate to drive.
Maybe another way to think about it is intensity. A high prey drive dog becomes intently focused on the prey object. A low prey drive dog won't care about a tug flapping around in their face. But may still run circles with energy. LOL.
Ofcourse, then there is the topic of confidence and how that effects the presentation of drives.....
How's that for clear as mud?
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
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- Puppy
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- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:48 pm
- Tell us about yourself: I compete in FR and own a 4 1/2 year old Dutch Shepherd named Sniper
Re: Drives?
Christie M wrote:I think that describing dogs as high or low drive as a generalization doesn't really do things justice. The topic of drives is hotly debated on working dog forums constantly.
Some dogs show high prey drive, but still come in the house and lay quietly chewing on a bone. I think that drives could be thought of as instinct, but more as a natural response to a specific stimulus that people have categorized.
Prey drive - the desire to catch kill something (be it a tug, a moving ball, a moving decoy, a running human, a rabbit...). I also think that prey drive has been altered in its representation in many breeds - ie, pointing or herding.
Defense drive - a forward response to perceived threat.
I'm so confused;-)
Fight Drive / Non-classical prey - there is a ton of debate as to whether this is a seperate "drive" or not. I won't wager an opinion, but it refers to the dogs desire to stay in the situation (a bite typically) simply because they are stimulated by the interaction/fight with the opponent.
But there is also ball drive, and hunt drive, and food drive, and.....LOL.
For what you are looking for, I think you would want a dog with high prey & food drive (handy for agility, obedience and stable protection work). Depending on the level of competition, a moderate level of defense is preferred by many, but not required for most sports. There are many lines that show "high drive" on the field, but are very livable at home. Other "low drive" dogs (when referring to work) wreck havoc at the house. Energy level does not always equate to drive.
Maybe another way to think about it is intensity. A high prey drive dog becomes intently focused on the prey object. A low prey drive dog won't care about a tug flapping around in their face. But may still run circles with energy. LOL.
Ofcourse, then there is the topic of confidence and how that effects the presentation of drives.....
How's that for clear as mud?
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- Puppy
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- Tell us about yourself: I compete in FR and own a 4 1/2 year old Dutch Shepherd named Sniper
Re: Drives?
I'm so confused lol
- Christie M
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- Tell us about yourself: Love my striped beasts.
Re: Drives?
I think that for you, a "high drive dog" is a dog that shows a ton of confidence, lots of energy and a strong prey drive, with comfortable defense. But it might not mean the same thing to someone else. They may consider a dog with a ton of defense, but no prey, to be "high drive." So I just think that using the terms as generalizations doesn't really give any information.Jason Davis wrote:I'm so confused lol
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
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- Puppy
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:48 pm
- Tell us about yourself: I compete in FR and own a 4 1/2 year old Dutch Shepherd named Sniper
Re: Drives?
I was just messin' with you, my sweet little blonde friend;-). You're right about what I prefer in a dog though!
- Dutchringgirl
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- Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
- Location: Ct, USA
Re: Drives?
There are sooooooooo many vairables !! Thanks for defining that Christie, it makes alot of sense. Thalie is so quiet but its her prey drive that is high but its her defense drive that is low. Saide dosnt have high prey drive but high....well, chew on Thalies leg drive.
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
- Christie M
- Global Moderator
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- Tell us about yourself: Love my striped beasts.
Re: Drives?
Love that!!!Dutchringgirl wrote:There are sooooooooo many vairables !! Thanks for defining that Christie, it makes alot of sense. Thalie is so quiet but its her prey drive that is high but its her defense drive that is low. Saide dosnt have high prey drive but high....well, chew on Thalies leg drive.
Dante has exceptional "couch" drive.
Christie Meyer
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
http://www.northwoodsk9.com
http://www.dutchshepherdrescue.org
http://www.thunderhawkcanine.com
Be proud of the things that you have taught your dog. Be humbled and grateful for all of the things that your dog has taught you. - Unknown
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- Working Dog
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Re: Drives?
Christie, what a great summary.
Drives are such a contested catogory! When I first learned about them, I was told there were 5 basic drives, and the rest fell under them; prey, fight, pack, food and sex.
I think a lot of people confuse energy level with drives, and I also see lots of folks confusing food drive with appetite (a dog with a high food drive will work for food even when it's sated).
Drives are such a contested catogory! When I first learned about them, I was told there were 5 basic drives, and the rest fell under them; prey, fight, pack, food and sex.
I think a lot of people confuse energy level with drives, and I also see lots of folks confusing food drive with appetite (a dog with a high food drive will work for food even when it's sated).
leih merigian
Vrijheid's H'Geyser
Zodiac vom Younghaus (over the bridge)
Central VA (near Charlottesville)
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...
Vrijheid's H'Geyser
Zodiac vom Younghaus (over the bridge)
Central VA (near Charlottesville)
It's never too late to have a happy childhood...
- Dutchringgirl
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 5692
- Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm
- Tell us about yourself: I am a mom of 6 life forces - 2 kids and 3 dogs 1 hamster. I live in Ct. I have trained Ringsport and Agility and have 2 DS, one 15 and 7 and a Basset Hound Cookie who is 2
- Location: Ct, USA
Re: Drives?
My parents Basset Hound has great food drive!!leih merigian wrote:Christie, what a great summary.
I think a lot of people confuse energy level with drives, and I also see lots of folks confusing food drive with appetite (a dog with a high food drive will work for food even when it's sated).
Lisa, Thalie CGC & Sadie, Cookie the Basset, CT
- Schlussdibusti
- Working Dog
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- Tell us about yourself: I adopted a DS
Re: Drives?
And just to make it more confusing....
how you gonna predict the drive of an 8 week old puppy? Those drives develop at different ages, no way of telling what you will get when the cute little dude looks at you at the breeder! Unless it's one of those little van Leeuwen devils hanging in your legs already
For me personally, I like the calm and confident, a little bit underestimated but kicking a.. when needed. And I like dog trainers/decoys who bring out the best in a dog, even if it means more work and effort.
This is how a calm/confident puppy , in my opinion, looks like (caution: totally subjective! )
how you gonna predict the drive of an 8 week old puppy? Those drives develop at different ages, no way of telling what you will get when the cute little dude looks at you at the breeder! Unless it's one of those little van Leeuwen devils hanging in your legs already
For me personally, I like the calm and confident, a little bit underestimated but kicking a.. when needed. And I like dog trainers/decoys who bring out the best in a dog, even if it means more work and effort.
This is how a calm/confident puppy , in my opinion, looks like (caution: totally subjective! )
Eva & Marco BH
Jupiter, Florida
Jupiter, Florida
- kchristy
- Training Dog
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- Puppy
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:00 am
- Tell us about yourself: I have a Chocolate Labrador named Gunner. He is 8 and 90 lbs of LAZY! I also have three kitties Angel, Sophie, and Daisy our newest addition to our family!
- Location: Stockbridge, GA
Re: Drives?
Jason Davis wrote:If you're looking to do protection sports with a dog, I would never recommend getting a dog with low drive. You'll find it's a huge hastle and it's not a proper representation of the breed. I have a very high drive DS and when I don't feel like being bothered with his endless energy, I make him lay down and leave me alone lol. In all seriousness though, it's much easier doing this than having to "build" the drive for the dog to do the work. I'm also a training decoy besides a FR handler and know this all to well unfortunately.
I see you're from Georgia? I don't know how close you are to Atlanta, but my good friend Joey Leigh is a trainer and decoy in those parts and I would recommend him to anybody. Good luck finding what you're looking for in a dog!
So I am being told a high-drive is good for me, so got that down but how would I know which puppies are High and Low drive at 8 weeks old?! Do I just take my best guess Lol?! I live live 20 minutes south of Atl So it would be very easy to visit him. Thanks!
Caitlin Beaumont