Very sad.. My 5 month DS... trainers keep telling return to breeder.

[Don3211]

Hi guys,

I am writing this with an extremely heavy heart. We have a 5-month-old DS. I have been trying to train him. The first trainer said that the dog was showing signs of aggression that it would be best to rehome him. But we didn't want to. SO we found a second trainer who actually trains, GSD, Malinois and other big dogs for police and protection. The first word out of his mouth was " OHHH, this is one strong dog, who is going to get stronger".However, during the second training session, he approached us and said that this dog was nervous and that could lead to aggression. My dog knows these commands. Sit, stay, down, leave it, place, give paw, high five, drop it(some times). Good on most recalls. Walks well on a prong collar. We showed him the videos of him doing those commands at home. However, his argument is that the dog has to do those wherever the dog is not just at home. He did everything except DOWN. So he put a choker collar and force him down. The dog squealed and was biting his boots. Finally, he went down. (where he has to be on the ground lying on his paws.) At home, he would do it by scooting his butt back on the smooth wood floor. But at the trainer the floor was rubber and he couldn't scoot down. So he grabbed his leash by the neck and tried to force him down, at which he growled and snapped. The trainer called that handler aggression, which could later lead to aggressive biting. Today was the third day of training. He did everything except DOWN. I think he really got scared the first time when he was forced this time he remembered it. He growled so they hit him with a bonker. (AN empty plastic can with a few stones that makes a big sound but no harm).Finally, he did it without much fuss but was hiding behind a chair afterward. The trainer this time suggested that he had seen many dogs, but this one is aggressive and it is not a family pet and that we should return him to the breeder. In the car, he behaved very well. We came home and he went to sleep in his crate. We love him so much, we are at a loss. Please help.

[Laplaiefier]

Ya know that sounds just like Rocket. At 2 months old he learned sit, down (roughly), up and wait in less than 2 days. Eleven days later he was retrieving the tennis ball. Then at 3-4 months he turned into My Hyde. Belligerent, argessive, uninterested, self-willed and absolutely unequivocally was not to walk on a leash. I have never tried to work with a dog so independant. I finally found a tool to use that he absolutely didn't enjoy. Jail. Started with the sky kennel, then the garage bathroom and finally tied to the kitchen table. Limited as the results were it did change his attitude to a more cooperative condition but Mr Hyde was still there.
Then for who knows why, a few dog fights later between us, poof.... Mr Hyde was gone at 11 months.
Separation was our only tool. I'm guessing it was an imprinted top dog barrier that alpha puppies sometimes do.
This is the smartest, participating, loyal and protective dog I have ever seen. He's a natural at so many things trainers train dogs for I can't take much credit. I haven't yet started serious work with him mostly because of his late start and I'm a bit lazy lately.
Routine is a must. Not deviating from the rules and keeping him from pushing the rule boundries is a must.
I'd suggest giving him at least time to make that decision that he doesn't want to be part of the pack. I think right now he's probably working his was to the top of the pack.
Find that tool. Convince him acceptance is following the pack rules not his.
Anyways thats my 2 cents worth and I'm sure there's a few here that disagree with me. At least give it 3 more months if he is showing any signs of hope.
Sorry for the long post.

[ladyjubilee]

I don't disagree, but....

I would first make sure that the trainers you've used are really good trainers, and find out what their specialty really is. When we picked our first trainer, I called around to vets and animal professionals to get 5 recommendations. I called those people and every last one recommended the trainer. One of those trainers was a positive only trainer, who let me know her methods just wouldn't work with Bramble. Bramble would need more intense work. (Not saying these trainers are positive only-obviously not.)

So make sure the trainer is truly respected and works with working dog behavior issues. I also asked for recommendations here, and was able to connect with a different trainer, not in my area who also recommended I stick with the trainer I was with, cause he is "really good" and just talk about some of the issues I was having (cause I'm terrible at training.)

The first trainer took on a dog that was ordered to be put down due to multiple serious attacks. Within a very short period of time, including time training in a full bite suit, the dog was able to be adopted by an experienced family with children and is doing well. Our second trainer does a better job with my son and me, but I'm not sure he would have taken on that problem dog. Both trainers are knowledgeable professionals, just have slightly different focuses.

I think a good trainer experienced with working dogs and who likes rehabilitating dogs and possibly board and train could help (I find I'm often the problem in the training equation.)

But....I also wonder if there is a communication piece between you and the trainer. I wonder if the trainer is factoring in that you got the dog from a trainer. Bramble was from a kill shelter, my $10 didnt involve any kind of temperament guarantee and she is spayed. We arent exactly continuing her line. I wonder if all that plays a part in the trailer's advice.

My guess is you spent more than $10. The breeder had a responsibility to ensure the dog's temperament was suited to the role the dog would lead. A hard charging "aggressive" dog shouldn't have been made available to a family seeking a pet. Too the breeder should be aware of the temperament issue in the offspring as a reputable breeder would want to avoid temperament problems in the line....or should take this as a learning experience to more appropriately evaluate and place puppies. The trainer may be thinking that you shouldn't have to over come temperament issues when part of getting a dog from a reputable breeder is assurance of temperament.

But I have never gotten a dog from a breeder. Most of mine have been from kill shelters. Before we were sure we could keep Bramble (she's "high drive" but not aggresive, but our situation is a little unique), I struggled with what would happen to her. I can relate to that worry.

ETA: I do agree with the trainer, though. Unless the dog is doing the command all the time and in all situations, they aren't doing it. Bramble's trainer said it was the distinction between a trick and training. Admittedly, the expectation from Bramble is higher since she's learning service work and is learning to go, well, every where, but even at pet level sit isn't going to keep a dog from running into traffic if the dog doesn't obey.

[TimL_168]

"bonking" the dog is about as poor of an approach as one could take for a young dog. I'm not advocating Pure Positive training at all. What I'm saying is that the pup should be viewing all training experience as something it wants to be involved in.
The butt-scooting away on the smooth floor is actually really good. That's keeping the dog's head in the same space as it changes position. That's can be a useful detail to incorporate in order lessons, as it keeps the dog from thinking it has to move around a lot.
Dragging the pup down by collar pressure is a poor choice as well. You and your pup need a s*#t-ton of patience and lots of practice. Put the pup up on a elevated surface somewhere outdoors; somewhere that it's ok for him to get up on. You can back tie him to prevent him from jumping down, but from that elevated position, it's easier to coax him into the Down at the edge of the table/ crate/ whatever.

[TimL_168]

Play with your dog. Get tug toys. I'm a big believer in the flirt pole and using it to build drive and train focus and obedience.
BABY STEPS!!!
After the dog shows signs of focus on you and snippets of obedience, let the dog hit the toy.
LEARN HOW TO TRAIN THE "OUT".

Search YouTube for videos from leerburg. Stonny Dennis has some great stuff as well.

[ladyjubilee]

"bonking" the dog is about as poor of an approach as one could take for a young dog. I'm not advocating Pure Positive training at all. What I'm saying is that the pup should be viewing all training experience as something it wants to be involved in.

What kind of questions could Don ask to screen for a trainer ? Are there techniques to look for and techniques to avoid?

[TimL_168]

What kind of questions could Don ask to screen for a trainer ? Are there techniques to look for and techniques to avoid?

I'd start with "do you sometimes hit puppies on the head with rattly, pebble-laden soda bottles?"

[TimL_168]

I'm sorry.
Rereading things...
Regardless of the nature of compulsion training a puppy of these breeds... The second trainer said he's nervy.
1) that shouldn't be surprising. He's being hit in the head.
2) while a nervy pup may develop into a clear headed dog, its going to be much more difficult, tricky, and potentially disastrous if you mess up details and timing in training.

So!
Can the pup even be returned?
What are your realistic abilities to devote time and energy to research and work with your pup?
Those are huge questions that you really have to answer honestly to yourself.
These dogs are notorious for being holy hell as pups. Personally, I cannot attest. I got mine at 15 months old. She was still an ornery cuss, but she had a solid base for me to work with. I don't think I could have dealt properly with a puppy with my work schedule then. I'm saying that only to show that I'm not being judgemental.

[TimL_168]

Questions to ask trainers...
1) do you work with puppies, green dogs, older dogs?
2) do you use pure positive training methods?
3) if you train professionally, can I see some examples of dogs you've trained and work you've done?
4) if you don't use pure positive training, could you give me an example of a negative reinforcement that you might use or let happen
5) could you explain to me the difference between a dog being in drive and a dog being frustrated.

[Tim91118]

You never said your dog was showing signs of aggression yourself. Your trainer did. What signs of aggression has your pup shown you outside of when he was with either of these two trainers ?

[Don3211]

Tim91118
My puppy has shown some protest behavior in the past, but never to the extremity that was shown at the trainers'. These are the instances: 1) He used to not like his crate, but now he goes in when we tell him to. However, on a few occasions, he has barked at us when we try to open his crate to let him out. 2) I stepped on his paw by accident when I was walking him. He yelped and jumped and grabbed my hand. He didn't bite hard, but then again, he is still a puppy, so this could intensify in the future to a harder bite. 3) When my wife was walking him, he saw someone who he really wanted to greet, however it was a structured walk so we didn't let him. He snapped and nipped at her boots in protest. He growled as well, but it was not a low, aggressive growl that we've heard from other puppies in our training class. It was a high pitched growl. 4) We have him on a long leash when he plays outside. He always gets excited when he sees it because he knows its playtime. However, when we try to pick up his leash to bring him in or even to just untangle him, he snaps but doesn't bite.

At the trainers' class yesterday, he did very well with the commands, which were place and recall on a long line. He started acting very nervous when the trainers came close to him to teach him down and sit. When telling him to sit, he mostly when down all the way. His ears were pinned against his head, he was panting, a lot, and he was licking his lips. I have a feeling that he always went down because he was trying to be submissive. He kept his head on the ground and was showing whale eyes. He refused to get up, but after being dragged to his feet by the trainers, they decided to move on to down. He continued to try to run to the wall and hide under the chairs but was continuously dragged out by his collar, sometimes bringing the chair with him as his head was under it. The trainers said that his first reaction when uncomfortable was to bite, but we think that his first reaction was to try to hide. He only snapped at the trainer when he was continuing to try to pull him out. They also said that he wasn't actually scared, but was showing protest behavior. However, his tail was tucked between his legs, his ears were pinned, and was obviously very nervous. The trainers themselves have told us that he is a nervous dog, so we don't understand why they would use such harsh punishments to train him.

[Tim91118]

Sounds like you just need let him know that certain behaviors are not allowed either by voice or a correction . For example, what do you do when he snaps when you pick up the leash ?

[Don3211]

Tim91118
When he snaps, we usually try to give him a correction using his normal collar and say a hard NO. Then he would drop the leash.

[Tim91118]

The trainer might be trying to see just how nervy the pup is ? Sounds like he is also trying to read the dog. He needs to keep you completely informed during these sessions, so you are both reading the pup the same way.

[TimL_168]

Dude, that trainer needs patience and to structure those lessons in a setting more conducive to success for the puppy. If something is giving the pup a hard time, step back and work at a level the pup is comfortable with. They can learn fast. I can only imagine the cacophony of bad vibes going through his head if every time someone wants him to lie down, he gets cranked on, has a loud bottle rattled at him, or has tangled up chairs chasing him.
I realize I sound like a dick. I apologise. It really sounds, from what you've described, that this trainer is not working at the level and pace your puppy needs.
These dogs can grow up to be unstoppable and fearless. But it takes careful work to get them there. It's just as easy for them to learn to go the other way.
Regarding the biting at the leash and hands: don't forget to redirect. Keep a small tug on your pocket. When he showed he wants to use his mouth, let him grip the tug, and change the direction of your training to focus on building his engagement with you.
It sounds like he's not that bad, but I can't imagine anyone dragging an already unconfident puppy out from behind chairs.
Again, I'm sorry if I'm sounding like an A-hole. I'll reiterate that it sounds like this trainer is asking too much too fast. You might have to take a step backwards. You can use the things he's solid with in controlled settings. He should be set up to succeed, not to fail. Baby steps.

[ladyjubilee]

I didn't catch on before. You are in a class?

I'll be honest there is no way Bramble and I would be where we are with her obedience if we were in a class. We have one on one with trainer. Not only does Bramble need the lack of distraction when learning new skills, but I need the trainer to focus on me and my mistakes. (We do take time each we to work on exposure.)

[ICE]

Took me awhile to decide if I was even going to chime in here as I train differently than most... I am not a compulsive trainer. I am a rewards based trainer but I wouldn't consider myself purely positive as my dogs do have rules and do not get away with bullsh*t.. I get a ton of flack for training with only a buckle collar and rewards (especially from the Schutzhund world) but it works. Yes, it takes longer but the relationship you build is worth it.
Honestly, reading the OPs post made me very sad. I cannot think of a thing that would condone yanking a 5 month old to the ground with a choke chain to "teach" him down? I would bite that trainer too. Seriously, the dog is a baby and it is only fair if you actually teach the dog what is required before you even consider any kind of correction. I agree with the others you need to get out of that class. Work with a trainer one on one but maybe not that one? You need to be fair and consistent and teach the pup what you expect. It doesn't innately know that when you say down - it means lay down. If the dog is a bit nervy compulsion will not make it better, it will either shut down completely or be so aggressive it can't be rehabbed. Please please spend some time teaching your dog and building a relationship without physically controlling him.

[Tim91118]

Don 3211, some pretty good advise . Would you agree ?

[Don3211]

A lot of good advice. I cannot thank you enough. I think this bonking business has to go. I am looking for someone with positive reinforcement training. We were so worried about the choking we simply didn't do that at home. It was such a traumatic experience for us to watch it.

[ladyjubilee]

Maybe you could ask folks on the forum for a trainer recommendation. I know I was given some good leads.